BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Ha, you can make that claim but it's not true. Greb, Loughran, Dempsey are extremely athletic fighters and superior fighters to Patterson.

They were superior fighters, that doesn't make them superior athletes. Especially the past his prime version of Dempsey that Tunney faced. Floyd more than likely would have handled him too.

You actually think dempsey & greb were as fast of hand and foot as Patterson was? I know you adore that era, but that's insanity.

You were holding my interest with the athlete comment (Patterson was indeed an interesting specimen, with some unique gifts, & his power is always under-valued), but I gotta say, the Dempsey who showed up for his second fight with Tunney would still put Patterson's lights out. It's not just that I disagree with you there, I cannot see a case for Patterson.

15 rounds would be a long time to avoid getting tagged, especially with Floyd' s pension for brawling. But I have no doubt that he would be lighting Jack up the majority of the fight, even if he does get stopped. Not that it has anything to do with Floyd/Tunney. Perhaps I got a bit overzealous with Dempsey refusing to acknowledge that Patterson was the superior athlete. Which he was.

Do you mean penchant for brawling?

In any case, Dempsey didn't retire as a truly washed-up fighter. Tunney made him look terrible, & he was certainly diminished, but Tunney was a terrific fighter (not that you didn't know that), & his style & durability were far more conducive to taming Dempsey than Patterson. I just can't see two things, here...

1. An offensive-minded, forward-moving fighter like Patterson avoiding Dempsey's punches.

2. The relatively frail Patterson absorbing Dempsey's artillery successfully.

Patterson was quick enough to land. He was just flat not good enough to win, IMO. Not even with a faded Dempsey, & not even with a slight chance.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Do you mean penchant for brawling?

In any case, Dempsey didn't retire as a truly washed-up fighter. Tunney made him look terrible, & he was certainly diminished, but Tunney was a terrific fighter (not that you didn't know that), & his style & durability were far more conducive to taming Dempsey than Patterson. I just can't see two things, here...

1. An offensive-minded, forward-moving fighter like Patterson avoiding Dempsey's punches.

2. The relatively frail Patterson absorbing Dempsey's artillery successfully.

Patterson was quick enough to land. He was just flat not good enough to win, IMO. Not even with a faded Dempsey, & not even with a slight chance.

Yes, I did mean penchant.

Patterson may've needed a pension at some point after a fight with Dempsey, mind (at least, the young Dempsey)

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: They were superior fighters, that doesn't make them superior athletes. Especially the past his prime version of Dempsey that Tunney faced. Floyd more than likely would have handled him too.

You actually think dempsey & greb were as fast of hand and foot as Patterson was? I know you adore that era, but that's insanity.

Floyd would've handled that Dempsey? No way in hell . . no weak-jawed, offensive-minded fighter is lasting with any version of Dempsey. Tunney had the perfect style to foil an older Dempsey . . .incredible speed, conditioning, movement, and counterpunching. Patterson is a different kettle of fish, not nearly as slick. No guy that has a life and death struggle with Chuvalo is lasting the distance vs Dempsey.

And yes, if not faster hands, as fast if not faster feet. Dempsey had probably the quickest 'spring' of all heavyweight champions, including Patterson.

No point in discussing this with you then. Jack dempsey was super human, even at the very end of his career.

No need to be super-human to realize any Dempsey is an awful matchup style-wise for any Patterson, who was no slick boxer despite his quickness.

....how did dempsey get in here? i thought this was about tunney and patterson. if we're going to make it about patterson vs. dempsey we have to include the ambulance in waiting.

jaclem2 wrote:....how did dempsey get in here?

God is everywhere

I think Tunney Patterson is a close fight. Floyd is a pretty underrated fighter.

I would say Tunny would win on points. He had skills ahead of his time, and was something like 67-1, avenging his only loss to Harry Greb 3 times. Floyd was not a big heavy either, and 95% or more of Tunney's fights were at light heavy. If Jack Dempsey was fighting Floyd, most would probably pick Jack because of his KO power, but Tunney was far ahead of Dempsey skill wise, imo.

Tunney did have more fights against heavyweight than people think. Certainly more than 5% of his fights.

Some other points to ponder:
Patterson did have great hand-speed, but Tunney was probably pretty close.
Tunney was faster on his feet.
Tunney was much harder to hit than Patterson.
Tunney had the better chin.

It's actually much more likely that Tunney would stop Patterson than vice-versa. A lot of things could happen, but the most likely one is that Tunney wins a decision. It would be competitive, at least for a while.

I was thinking Tunney initally. But I think I'll change my mind and give it to Patterson... Though Tunney was a natural Light Heavyweight, Patterson was quick ibn the Heavyweight division too.
So I can't see speed being the telling factor in this fight.

I dont think anyone picking Tunney is using speed as their reason.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:I dont think anyone picking Tunney is using speed as their reason.

Ambling Alp wrote:He also had pretty good hand speed himself.

Ambling Alp wrote:Tunney was faster on his feet.

LOL.

Ah, Tunney, the most overrated HW on BOTP rears his head again. Apparently only Ali or Jack Johnson stand a chance against him eh?

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ah, Tunney, the most overrated HW on BOTP rears his head again. Apparently only Ali or Jack Johnson stand a chance against him eh?

Your prediction, out of interest?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ah, Tunney, the most overrated HW on BOTP rears his head again. Apparently only Ali or Jack Johnson stand a chance against him eh?

Your prediction, out of interest?

Patterson by close decision, actually a pretty even fight by my estimation. Patterson has the handspeed and power to make things uncomfortable for Gene and Tunney moves and jabs well enough to avoid getting cold cocked into an early nap.

BarryWashington wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Diamond WEAPON wrote:Ah, Tunney, the most overrated HW on BOTP rears his head again. Apparently only Ali or Jack Johnson stand a chance against him eh?

Your predictio, out of interest?

d dub will probably say:

whitaker by a landslide hahaha

Of course, Whitaker>God remember? DD

Tunney takes a beating in this one. Floyd capping it off with a big left hook around 6.

tennessee wrote:Tunney takes a beating in this one. Floyd capping it off with a big left hook around 6.

Good matchup. Tunney the higly regimented marine. I recall that he trained for one fight by doing his road work behind the city busses. Breathing in the exhaust as a way to harden himself. I'm sure it made sense at the time he did it.

Tunney had the smarts and skills to defeat a Dempsey who may have been in a disapated state due to lack of activity.

How he meets a fresh Combination throwing Patterson with the quickest hands ever in the heavyweight division remains to be seen.

Patterson went down a lot. I do not recall him going down and not getting up. (my memory may be faulty) He had the heart of a true champion.

Did Tunney encounter foes with the ability to hurt him like Patterson did. Liston was in his prime when he destroyed Patterson. However demnpsey was not in his prime when he was beat by Tunney.

So comparing the two you need to take the demographics and history of not only the participants, but of those they fought and when they fought them in their carreer. I wonder if the Dempsey that decimated Jefferies would have lost to Tunney. I doubt it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ

theone wrote:you forgot to mention Moore;that Patterson left hook dropped him like a bullet.

Yeah, and Moore was one tough guy. He put Marcianio down.

The Second God wrote:Good matchup. Tunney the higly regimented marine. I recall that he trained for one fight by doing his road work behind the city busses. Breathing in the exhaust as a way to harden himself. I'm sure it made sense at the time he did it.

Tunney had the smarts and skills to defeat a Dempsey who may have been in a disapated state due to lack of activity.

How he meets a fresh Combination throwing Patterson with the quickest hands ever in the heavyweight division remains to be seen.

Patterson went down a lot. I do not recall him going down and not getting up. (my memory may be faulty) He had the heart of a true champion.

Did Tunney encounter foes with the ability to hurt him like Patterson did. Liston was in his prime when he destroyed Patterson. However demnpsey was not in his prime when he was beat by Tunney.

So comparing the two you need to take the demographics and history of not only the participants, but of those they fought and when they fought them in their carreer. I wonder if the Dempsey that decimated Jefferies would have lost to Tunney. I doubt it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ

Patterson was down for the count twice against Liston, since you said you couldnt recall him ever staying down. Not that Tunney could KO Patterson, but speaking of Tunney, inactivity was only an issue for Dempsey once. Though not the full fighter he had been, he was a well-prepped man second-go round.

tennessee wrote:Tunney takes a beating in this one. Floyd capping it off with a big left hook around 6.

Highly feasible.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

The Second God wrote:Good matchup. Tunney the higly regimented marine. I recall that he trained for one fight by doing his road work behind the city busses. Breathing in the exhaust as a way to harden himself. I'm sure it made sense at the time he did it.

Tunney had the smarts and skills to defeat a Dempsey who may have been in a disapated state due to lack of activity.

How he meets a fresh Combination throwing Patterson with the quickest hands ever in the heavyweight division remains to be seen.

Patterson went down a lot. I do not recall him going down and not getting up. (my memory may be faulty) He had the heart of a true champion.

Did Tunney encounter foes with the ability to hurt him like Patterson did. Liston was in his prime when he destroyed Patterson. However demnpsey was not in his prime when he was beat by Tunney.

So comparing the two you need to take the demographics and history of not only the participants, but of those they fought and when they fought them in their carreer. I wonder if the Dempsey that decimated Jefferies would have lost to Tunney. I doubt it.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OeeCfbahwQ

Patterson was down for the count twice against Liston, since you said you couldnt recall him ever staying down. Not that Tunney could KO Patterson, but speaking of Tunney, inactivity was only an issue for Dempsey once. Though not the full fighter he had been, he was a well-prepped man second-go round.

Yeah, but even after being knocked out, patterson did not want to stay down. I think that is what I meant. Sure liston stopped him twice in the first round.. It was one of those two fights that got me interested in the sport.

Look at what Ali did to him. I didn't like the way he hurt him, I thought it was cruel. None the less Patterson did not quit. But Ali was virtually unbeatable at that time even though past his prime.

Patterson was a class act, Tunney was a solid well trained fighter, he reminds me of the 'K' brothers today due to his highly structured and well disciplined performances in the ring.