BoxRec

Well, I have Frazier at #5 and Marciano at #7. There are a few guys right that I have behind him that you can make a good case for. However, there are not that many.

I mean this with all due respect and without criticizing anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that only guys who have actually fought at some level seem to appreciate how remarkable it was for Marciano to go undefeated like he did - especially guys who had a number of pro fights. (A least, that's the way it seems to me.) I couldn't even go undefeated through my first amateur fight, but Marciano did it in 49 professional fights. That is truly remarkable to me. All the greats lost except Marciano. He always found a way to win.

ray, can't argue with making the case for the Rock's tenacity. But if Joe Frazier retires and never fights Foreman, his case is just as strong. Perhaps stronger since he beat Ali.

RM's decision to end his career when he did was certainly a good one. Not sure that alone catapults him to the stratosphere though.


Though his case is probably better than any other undefeated fighter I can think of. Ottke, Calzaghe,....and so on.

raylawpc wrote:I mean this with all due respect and without criticizing anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that only guys who have actually fought at some level seem to appreciate how remarkable it was for Marciano to go undefeated like he did - especially guys who had a number of pro fights. (A least, that's the way it seems to me.) I couldn't even go undefeated through my first amateur fight, but Marciano did it in 49 professional fights. That is truly remarkable to me. All the greats lost except Marciano. He always found a way to win.

To a word, I have said this many times. The level of consistency required is rarely acknowledged in these debates. Its so easy to have an off-night, or to come in under-done just once. The huge majority of champs lost here and there to lesser lights.

BoxBuzz wrote:ray, can't argue with making the case for the Rock's tenacity. But if Joe Frazier retires and never fights Foreman, his case is just as strong. Perhaps stronger since he beat Ali.

Except: The "never fights Foreman" is the key, in my mind. There would have been a big question mark for Joe since, (1) he never fought Foreman, and (2) he would never have had the re-match with Ali. There were no legitimate contenders left for Rocky to fight, and I don't recall anybody clamoring for a rematch with the Rock at that point. And, Rocky had fought nearly twice as many fights as Joe at that point. So I don't think his case would have been as strong.

I have enormous respect for Joe. My first son's name would have been Joe if only my wife would have gone along with it. But if Joe had retired after the first Ali fight, a lot of questions would have remained. Not so with Rocky when he retired. I don't recall ever reading that anybody claimed Rocky retired too soon, or was ducking a new contender or a rematch with somebody he already beat.

raylawpc wrote:I mean this with all due respect and without criticizing anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that only guys who have actually fought at some level seem to appreciate how remarkable it was for Marciano to go undefeated like he did - especially guys who had a number of pro fights. (A least, that's the way it seems to me.) I couldn't even go undefeated through my first amateur fight, but Marciano did it in 49 professional fights. That is truly remarkable to me. All the greats lost except Marciano. He always found a way to win.

This sounds like a press release for Floyd Mayweather.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:I mean this with all due respect and without criticizing anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that only guys who have actually fought at some level seem to appreciate how remarkable it was for Marciano to go undefeated like he did - especially guys who had a number of pro fights. (A least, that's the way it seems to me.) I couldn't even go undefeated through my first amateur fight, but Marciano did it in 49 professional fights. That is truly remarkable to me. All the greats lost except Marciano. He always found a way to win.

This sounds like a press release for Floyd Mayweather.

My response is the same as that I made to Buzz regarding Frazier: If Mayweather retires, there is a big question mark on his reputation: a guy many fondly call the Pac-man.

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:I mean this with all due respect and without criticizing anyone, but I have come to the conclusion that only guys who have actually fought at some level seem to appreciate how remarkable it was for Marciano to go undefeated like he did - especially guys who had a number of pro fights. (A least, that's the way it seems to me.) I couldn't even go undefeated through my first amateur fight, but Marciano did it in 49 professional fights. That is truly remarkable to me. All the greats lost except Marciano. He always found a way to win.

This sounds like a press release for Floyd Mayweather.

My response is the same as that I made to Buzz regarding Frazier: If Mayweather retires, there is a big question mark on his reputation: a guy many fondly call the Pac-man.

Meh, his "0" is more impressive than Rocky's to me. I wasn't disagreeing that it's a great accomplishment to win all of your fights. Your post just read like Floyd mayweather bragging about himself. It amused me.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: This sounds like a press release for Floyd Mayweather.

My response is the same as that I made to Buzz regarding Frazier: If Mayweather retires, there is a big question mark on his reputation: a guy many fondly call the Pac-man.

Meh, his "0" is more impressive than Rocky's to me. I wasn't disagreeing that it's a great accomplishment to win all of your fights. Your post just read like Floyd mayweather bragging about himself. It amused me.

Agreed. If Mayweather retired tomorrow, it would be a tremendous accomplishment, although, unlike Rocky, a big question mark will remain.

History will probably forget this, but Pacquiao aint the only guy Mayweather should be pegged back for ducking.

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey is right, You can place the Rock anywhere in the top 20 you care to, but anyone who rates him above Frazier is off course without a compass.

I think he would have taken care of Frazier quite handily.

The Second God wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey is right, You can place the Rock anywhere in the top 20 you care to, but anyone who rates him above Frazier is off course without a compass.

I think he would have taken care of Frazier quite handily.

And that's one good example of why you have been demoted to DEITY SECOND CLASS. Now go....and sin no more.

BoxBuzz wrote:

The Second God wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey is right, You can place the Rock anywhere in the top 20 you care to, but anyone who rates him above Frazier is off course without a compass.

I think he would have taken care of Frazier quite handily.

And that's one good example of why you have been demoted to DEITY SECOND CLASS. Now go....and sin no more.

Lol. This is how I see it. Frazier has to withstand the aggression of Marciano. This means a head on collision between two very tough men and hard punchers.

It is my personal feeling that Rocky being as active and relentless as he was in the ring wins. Neither man liked to back up and I don't think Rocky knew how to back up.

I say Marciano by 4.

Frazier was not immune to being hurt, Rocky was hardly ever in trouble. Frazier had a little trouble with Foreman if I recall. He couldn't keep from getting up off the floor.

The quality of opponents that Marciano fought was not the same as Frazier. However in a head on collision with Frazier I doubt that would make a difference. Both men would meet to trade punches and I do not see Rocky losing this shoot out.

"By four," meaning KO4?

If he didn't know how, Frazier would be more than happy to teach Marciano how to back up.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:If he didn't know how, Frazier would be more than happy to teach Marciano how to back up.

I don't think Rocky was that quick of a learner. He fought a lot of big hard punchers. Do you remember him backing up?

The Second God wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:If he didn't know how, Frazier would be more than happy to teach Marciano how to back up.

I don't think Rocky was that quick of a learner. He fought a lot of big hard punchers. Do you remember him backing up?

He never fought Joe Frazier.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Second God wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:If he didn't know how, Frazier would be more than happy to teach Marciano how to back up.

I don't think Rocky was that quick of a learner. He fought a lot of big hard punchers. Do you remember him backing up?

He never fought Joe Frazier.

There's a lot of people he didn't fight. So we're having a hypothetical discussion.

How is Rocky prevented from beating Frazier? How does he nullify Rocky? Rocky is going to get hit, but he got hit a lot. Despite getting hit a lot he won quite a few of his fights.

When I envision this encounter I see something akin to an explosion taking place, similar to Hagler / Hearns. I can't imagine Frazier avoiding the right hand Rocky carried and I can't imagine Rocky backing down.

How is Frazier going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his right hand?

The Second God wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Second God wrote:
I don't think Rocky was that quick of a learner. He fought a lot of big hard punchers. Do you remember him backing up?

He never fought Joe Frazier.

There's a lot of people he didn't fight. So we're having a hypothetical discussion.

How is Rocky prevented from beating Frazier? How does he nullify Rocky? Rocky is going to get hit, but he got hit a lot. Despite getting hit a lot he won quite a few of his fights.

When I envision this encounter I see something akin to an explosion taking place, similar to Hagler / Hearns. I can't imagine Frazier avoiding the right hand Rocky carried and I can't imagine Rocky backing down.

How is Frazier going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his right hand?

I never said Rocky couldn't beat Frazier. Every word you've said applies to marciano too. I can't imagine Rocky avoiding the left Hook and I can't imagine Frazier backing down.

How is Marciano going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his left hand?

The Second God wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:yancey is right, You can place the Rock anywhere in the top 20 you care to, but anyone who rates him above Frazier is off course without a compass.

I think he would have taken care of Frazier quite handily.

Then it would be very interesting for some to note that Frazier himself is on record as saying that he didn't think he would have beaten Marciano.

Would have been a great fight to watch though...

Nah, not very interesting at all. Boxers say all kinds of things.

Perhaps.

Something that hasn't been mentioned in this thread was Marciano's huge appetite for training. He might have been the fittest heavyweight so far. The amount of leather he threw in some rounds is quite frankly staggering, for a heavyweight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Second God wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: He never fought Joe Frazier.

There's a lot of people he didn't fight. So we're having a hypothetical discussion.

How is Rocky prevented from beating Frazier? How does he nullify Rocky? Rocky is going to get hit, but he got hit a lot. Despite getting hit a lot he won quite a few of his fights.

When I envision this encounter I see something akin to an explosion taking place, similar to Hagler / Hearns. I can't imagine Frazier avoiding the right hand Rocky carried and I can't imagine Rocky backing down.

How is Frazier going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his right hand?

I never said Rocky couldn't beat Frazier. Every word you've said applies to marciano too. I can't imagine Rocky avoiding the left Hook and I can't imagine Frazier backing down.

How is Marciano going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his left hand?

Certainly he would get hit but he wouldn't just be getting hit. Rocky I think hustled a bit more than Frazier. It seems to me his style was a bit quicker. He was also a swarmer. So you've got two swarmers meeting head on. One punches harder than the other. I think that is Rocky. So were waiting to see a knock out and I go with Marciano.

I think Rocky had greater one punch power than Frazier. That should figure into a brief encounter between the two.

The Second God wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

The Second God wrote: There's a lot of people he didn't fight. So we're having a hypothetical discussion.

How is Rocky prevented from beating Frazier? How does he nullify Rocky? Rocky is going to get hit, but he got hit a lot. Despite getting hit a lot he won quite a few of his fights.

When I envision this encounter I see something akin to an explosion taking place, similar to Hagler / Hearns. I can't imagine Frazier avoiding the right hand Rocky carried and I can't imagine Rocky backing down.

How is Frazier going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his right hand?

I never said Rocky couldn't beat Frazier. Every word you've said applies to marciano too. I can't imagine Rocky avoiding the left Hook and I can't imagine Frazier backing down.

How is Marciano going to approach this? It is clear he was able to be hit. It is clear his fighting style was a head on style. How is he going to stand up to someone who does not go backward and carries a wrecking ball in his left hand?

Certainly he would get hit but he wouldn't just be getting hit. Rocky I think hustled a bit more than Frazier. It seems to me his style was a bit quicker. He was also a swarmer. So you've got two swarmers meeting head on. One punches harder than the other. I think that is Rocky. So were waiting to see a knock out and I go with Marciano.

I think Rocky had greater one punch power than Frazier. That should figure into a brief encounter between the two.

Frazier was definitely quicker, that isn't even debatable. As for the encounter being brief I can only

I like Frazier by either late stoppage or tight decision. In a fight of similar styles that would certainly be a war of attrition I'll take the guy who I think is better. Rock might have a bit of a one shot edge. I don't think any fighter in history could stop Frazier with one shot, so it isn't a big selling point for me. Joe was quicker and I think he had a better chin.