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Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 07:45
by T.M.K
Hi gents,
the thing is, both John and Mayweather have unofficially "unified" various claims to their division:
Mayweather beat Judah (rightly or WRONGLY) for the IBF title, Baldomir for the WBC (and formerly unified WBC/WBA/IBF) title and Mosley for the not-on-the-line WBA title (indeed, Mosley beat Margarito who should have been WBA/IBF unified champ). That's 3 good claims compared to Pacquiao's WBO belt.... and with Williams leaving the division who else is/was there to challenge Floyd's claim? The general consensus is you should defend a title at least once a year and despite his layoffs Floyd has still been scheduled-to-fight, or fighting, oftemn enough to keep his claim (Lennox Lewis went over a year between fights but didn't lose recognition).
Chris John beat Juan Manuel Marquez for the WBA title, which should have been WBA/IBF/Linear unified title..... wtih Marquez having best claim to Lineal success aftre the draw with Pac-man (who left the division) who had beaten Barrera (who had also unofficially won both WBC and IBF belts during his Linear reign), who had beaten Naseem Hamed - who politics aside had unified the entire division with all four belts.
John may not be living up to this status too well, but Sonny Liston didn't get to be champion any sooner than when he beat Patterson, even if Patterson kept avoiding him, likewise with Jack Johnson and Tommy Burns: to be the man you have to beat the man.
"T.M.K"/Col
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 08:06
by Newport Daz
Scottrf wrote:LeedsLad wrote:To have Mayweather as champion is laughable.
His record at 147 is gash, and Pacquiao has annihilated two men who he wanted absolutely nothing to do with.
After they had been beaten, one of them at another weight.
Pacquiao wanted nothing to do with Mosley until Mayweather beat him.
You seem to have something personal against Mayweather tbh.
I wouldn't say his record was "gash" as such, but how many of those guys he's beat were in/close to their prime and in their best weight class?
I think Floyd has been very selective with his opponents. Big names but giant asterisks next to them. Having said that so does Pac to a lesser extent. I give Manny the edge for the way he destroyed Cotto and Marg and Marquez aside(who wasn't fighting inhis proper weight class when he fought Floyd) has been more impressive against common opponents.
I'm looking forward to Floyd Vs Ortiz. A prime guy in his proper weight class. If Floyd wins impressively he'll shut a lot of people up.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:08
by exittored
I'm going to pick the perceived Best in each weight division based on Ring/Linear/belts/longevity as champion plus my personal choice for the best, in some cases they will be the same.
HEAVY: Champion: Wladimir Klitschko. Best: Vitali Klitschko
CRUISER: Champion: Steve Cunningham. Best: Marco Huck
LT HEAVY: Champion: Bernard Hopkins. Best: Hopkins
SUPER MIDDLE: Champion: Andre Ward. Best: Ward
MIDDLE: Champion: Sergio Martinez. Best: Martinez
LT MIDDLE: Champion: Miguel Cotto. Best: Saul Alvarez
WELTER: Champion: Floyd Mayweather. Best: Manny Pacquaio
LT WELTER: Champion: Tim Bradley. Best: Amir Khan
LIGHT: Champion: Juan Manuel Marquez. Best: Marquez
SUPER FEATHER: Champion: Takashi Uchiyama. Best: Adrien Broner
FEATHER: Champion: Chris John. Best: Yuriorkis Gamboa
SUPER BANTAM: Champion: Toshiaki Nishioka. Best: Guillermo Rigondeaux
BANTAM: Champion: Nonito Donaire. Best: Donaire
SUPER FLY: Champion: Omar Andres Narvaez. Best: Narvaez
FLY: Champion: Pongsaklek Wonjongkam. Best: Giovani Segura(moved up from Lt Fly)
LT FLY: Champion: Roman Gonzalez. Best: Gonzalez
STRAW: Champion: Kazuto Ioka. Best: Ioka
Certain divisions like Light Middle and Super Feather have no clear or outstanding champions at the moment but i think there's at least one or two boxers in every other division who are clearly the best or better then the rest.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:09
by Scottrf
Decent looking lists exittored.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:25
by hurlock
Scottrf wrote:Decent looking lists exittored.
x2 i think cunningham over huck tho.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:35
by exittored
hurlock wrote:Scottrf wrote:Decent looking lists exittored.
x2 i think cunningham over huck tho.
Thanks and i agree Cunningham over Huck a couple of years ago especially as he holds a win over him in 2007 but he's 35 and has only been fighting once a year since 2008. Huck has improved since that loss and at 26 is coming into his peak years so i think he'd beat Cunningham now based on his workrate especially after seeing him beat Ola Afolabi and despite the majority view i actually thought he just did enough to beat Denis Lebedev too, was miffed by calls for robbery on that one even though it was very close.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:41
by macinger
Heavy--Wladimir Klitschko
Cruiser--Steve Cunningham
Light Heavy--Bernard Hopkins
Super Middle-- Carl Froch
Middle-- Sergio Martinez
Light Middle-- Saul Alvarez
Welterweight-- Floyd Mayweather
Light Welter-- Timothy Bradley
Light-- Juan Manuel Marquez
Super Feather--Takahiro Ao
Feather-- Yuriorkis Gamboa
Super bantam--Toshiaki Nishioka
Bantam--Nonito Donaire
Superfly-- Hugo Fidel Cazares
Fly--Giovani Segura
Light fly-- Roman Gonzalez
Minimmum--Nkosinathi Joyi
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 11:42
by hurlock
exittored wrote:hurlock wrote:Scottrf wrote:Decent looking lists exittored.
x2 i think cunningham over huck tho.
Thanks and i agree Cunningham over Huck a couple of years ago especially as he holds a win over him in 2007 but he's 35 and has only been fighting once a year since 2008. Huck has improved since that loss and at 26 is coming into his peak years so i think he'd beat Cunningham now based on his workrate especially after seeing him beat Ola Afolabi and despite the majority view i actually thought he just did enough to beat Denis Lebedev too, was miffed by calls for robbery on that one even though it was very close.
didnt really know that.
i'll take it back
DD
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 16:33
by Asterix
exittored wrote:hurlock wrote:Scottrf wrote:Decent looking lists exittored.
x2 i think cunningham over huck tho.
Thanks and i agree Cunningham over Huck a couple of years ago especially as he holds a win over him in 2007 but he's 35 and has only been fighting once a year since 2008. Huck has improved since that loss and at 26 is coming into his peak years so i think he'd beat Cunningham now based on his workrate especially after seeing him beat Ola Afolabi and despite the majority view i actually thought he just did enough to beat Denis Lebedev too, was miffed by calls for robbery on that one even though it was very close.
I'm just about in line with your thinking. Cunningham didn't look very good against Ross, as well.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 17:40
by Jeff Thomas
Ok so here's my point;
You are all comparative experts on world boxing, certainly compared to the man on the street (or woman)! Yet all of you produced a different set of lists and reasons!
With this in mind how in the name of Jesus are people meant to know or respect world champions? Thus being a world champion these days is a worthless tag in sports news terms.
At the turn of the century news papers crowned champions, they even decided on decisions right? So what's to stop this happening now?
My suggestion is that a panel of non profiteering experts are appointed to nominate the top two fighters in each division to fight for vacant official world title belts- these belts will have clear guidelines and the panel will decide and update ratings on a regular basis! Ratings will be submitted by individuals who will have to back up their ratings with how's and why's !
From the moment that these matches take place all talk of other titles will be ignored by hbo, sky and other broadcasters - and media!
It would be so easy to do - and would do a great deal to save the sport!?
Thought?
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 18:16
by Perseus
Scottrf wrote:Jeff Thomas wrote:Scottrf wrote:Original 8
W. Klitshcko
Hopkins
Martinez
Mayweather
Marquez
Gamboa
Donaire
Wonjongkam
Is that linear Scott?
Pretty much, or the dominant champ. I haven't checked to see that they are the linear champs if that's what you're asking. It's a bit academic because the lineage is broken in every division.
The lineage isn't broken at middleweight.
Hopkins----->Taylor------->Pavlik------->Martinez
I think all the belts Hopkins collected have fallen by the wayside but the lineage of the "man who beat the man" is intact.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 18:21
by Scottrf
Perseus wrote:Scottrf wrote:Jeff Thomas wrote:
Is that linear Scott?
Pretty much, or the dominant champ. I haven't checked to see that they are the linear champs if that's what you're asking. It's a bit academic because the lineage is broken in every division.
The lineage isn't broken at middleweight.
Hopkins----->Taylor------->Pavlik------->Martinez
I think all the belts Hopkins collected have fallen by the wayside but the lineage of the "man who beat the man" is intact.
From the first Middleweight champion?
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 19:03
by Jeff Thomas
Scottrf wrote:Perseus wrote:Scottrf wrote:
Pretty much, or the dominant champ. I haven't checked to see that they are the linear champs if that's what you're asking. It's a bit academic because the lineage is broken in every division.
toney vs jones??
The lineage isn't broken at middleweight.
Hopkins----->Taylor------->Pavlik------->Martinez
I think all the belts Hopkins collected have fallen by the wayside but the lineage of the "man who beat the man" is intact.
From the first Middleweight champion?
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 19 Jul 2011, 20:51
by Perseus
Scottrf wrote:Perseus wrote:Scottrf wrote:
Pretty much, or the dominant champ. I haven't checked to see that they are the linear champs if that's what you're asking. It's a bit academic because the lineage is broken in every division.
The lineage isn't broken at middleweight.
Hopkins----->Taylor------->Pavlik------->Martinez
I think all the belts Hopkins collected have fallen by the wayside but the lineage of the "man who beat the man" is intact.
From the first Middleweight champion?
If you insist on being stupid about it of course it's broken. In 100+ years there is a slight possibility that an established champ might retire or move up in weight leaving the top spot vacant. Middleweight lineage is intact since the last time a champ was established nearly 10 years ago(unless you think someone other than Hopkins was middleweight champ
)
Jones/Toney was at 168 not 160.
Re: Name the genuine world champion in each division?
Posted: 20 Jul 2011, 06:03
by earsjohn
Perseus wrote:Scottrf wrote:Perseus wrote:
The lineage isn't broken at middleweight.
Hopkins----->Taylor------->Pavlik------->Martinez
I think all the belts Hopkins collected have fallen by the wayside but the lineage of the "man who beat the man" is intact.
From the first Middleweight champion?
If you insist on being stupid about it of course it's broken. In 100+ years there is a slight possibility that an established champ might retire or move up in weight leaving the top spot vacant. Middleweight lineage is intact since the last time a champ was established nearly 10 years ago(unless you think someone other than Hopkins was middleweight champ
)
Jones/Toney was at 168 not 160.
Pongsaklek Wonjongkam is the WBC Flyweight Champion. That particular belt has a lineage that goes back to 1973.
Wonjongkam..Naito..Wonjongkam..Tunacao..Singsurat..Pacquiao..Sasakul..Arbachakov..Kittikasem..Chitalada..Kim..Chitalada..Bernal..
Kobayashi..Cedeno..Magri..Mercedes..Castillo..Cerdeno..Avelar..Oguma..Park..Canto..Oguma..Gonzalez (who beat Canto for the vacant belt)
Peculiarly the WBA Flyweight belt, until recently vacated by Daiki Kameda, had a lineage going back to the mid 1980's.
Kameda..Kaovichit..Sakata..Parra..Morel..Kratingdaenggym..Gamez..Soto..Bonilla..Ploenchit..Griman..Guzman..Kim..Alvarez..Tamukuma..
Lee..Rojas..Bassa..Zapata (who beat Gonzalez for the vacant belt)
Only one fighter held both belts during this time (Kim) however not at the same time.
Outside of flyweight the current beltholder with the longest lineal history is probably WBC Bantamweight, Nonito Donaire, which goes back to 1996. WBC Minimumweight belt (held by Kazuto Ioka) goes back to 1998. No other belt goes back to the 1990's.
Middleweight is an anomoly of course, as Martinez is generally recognised as the no 1 guy, yet he does not hold a belt that can be defended. The lineage from Martinez back, however, extends to April 1992, when the Reggie Johnson fought Steve Collins for the vacant WBA title. The IBF lineage goes back to Hopkins v Mercado in April 95 and the WBC line goes to Jackson v Cardomone in March 1995. The WBO line, by comparison, is irrelevant.