BoxRec

BIGMARK wrote:

gasman wrote:I have been very critical of Haye in the past, but on this occasion I think he did all he could in his fight with Vlad, of course he should never have got the big toe out, but the is a promoters dream - he sells his fights. Ring magazine add the marketability of a fighter in their ratings and a fighter, at world level especially, needs to shift tickets and cause interest and despite his short comings against Vlad, Haye provided intrigue to the heavyweight division.

You are right about Borges, but I isolate his points on Booth as I think they are off the mark.

One thing that is striking about the post-fight commentary on Haye-Vlad is the amount of rats coming out of the woodwork to slate Haye for his effort, performance against Vlad. These were the same bullshitters that were making excuses on Hayes behalf (and Sky's) about the Harrison fight and turning a blind eye to the awful PPV match up with Ruiz. At the time all I read was the common theme/promoter speak i.e. 'it was a big event (i.e. Haye-Harrison) and no one expected Harrison to win or be competitive'. It is like some of these guys are waiting to see what the common/safe line is from their peers and they just jump aboard. Just to be clear, I am NOT referring to any writers at Boxing Monthly, Glyn was one of the few writers that rightly criticised the Haye-Harrison PPV and the lack of under card shown.

IMO Haye was just beaten by the better man, a man who put his game plan together perfectly, fought the perfect fight and used his physical advantages to the max. I am a Haye fan and although i wanted him to do more i feel it was more about what Wlad did more than what Haye didnt. Haye is a good small heavyweight but was beaten by an excellent super Heavyweight

I look forward to reading "The Inquest" as it sure to raise alot of debate to get stuck into.

Hmm Bigger maybe but perhalps not better.
For example Mark I think lewis beats Holy 8/10 but Holys are far better rounded fighter.

I just don't see Vlad is being anything other than the 2nd best of a bad bunch.

Another thing people keep ing Vitali' slipping when did this happen?, was it the Vitali who threw a record number of punches in 'the Nipple' or the Vitali the Ko'ed Solis with ease?

Vitali cleans up little bros mess (except Byrd but he's given a pass for that after having full surgery) Vitali is like a big rough moutain man whereas little bro fights scared.

Vitali would easily beat his smaller brother and SHOULD (but wont) have the better legacy in the end.

BIGMARK wrote:I like the Holyfield / Lewis comparison because IMO Haye and Wlad are two poorer versions of the two forementioned fighters. I know Wlad does fight scared but has developed a style that allows him to do that and do it effectively. I do honestly believe that the version of wlad that Hyae would of beaten most fighters through history due to him being a new breed of Super heavy where as the smaller men of the past are just Crusiers/ heavies these days. The only kind of fighter that beats Wlad is a fighter the same size as him and is his equal athleticly, Lennox is that fighter. I agree that if a peek Vitali fought a peek Wlad there would be only one winner and that would be big bro

I agree with you 100%

One thing though,

How do you think a prime Holyfield would do, given that he wouldnt mind taking a punch or two to get inside (something that Haye was very wary of doing Mark) and who also was faster on his feet than Both Haye & Vlad.

Just curious.

I thought the inquest was a great read, although I do admit I also like a good straight analysis piece as the BM fight reports used to be.

Still working my way through the mag but it looks as good as usual. Very good value for money.

On another tack, someone posted on here that Haye is good for boxing because he sells fights. That's BS. He is bad for boxing because he sells a product that is shit. He's like one of those rogues Roger Cook used to get hold off selling fake TVs at Sunday markets.

veriton wrote:
On another tack, someone posted on here that Haye is good for boxing because he sells fights. That's BS. He is bad for boxing because he sells a product that is shit. He's like one of those rogues Roger Cook used to get hold off selling fake TVs at Sunday markets.

If he'd gone out and destroyed Wlad would you still hold that view? Just wondering if this is just more fall out from the disappointment of Hamburg or was it Haye's fault Audley couldn't be bothered to throw a punch too?

Final round wrote:

veriton wrote:
On another tack, someone posted on here that Haye is good for boxing because he sells fights. That's BS. He is bad for boxing because he sells a product that is shit. He's like one of those rogues Roger Cook used to get hold off selling fake TVs at Sunday markets.

If he'd gone out and destroyed Wlad would you still hold that view? Just wondering if this is just more fall out from the disappointment of Hamburg or was it Haye's fault Audley couldn't be bothered to throw a punch too?

If Haye sold a fight on the premise he was going to do something explosive and then whimpered his way to a mind-numbing win - as he did against Harrison and Valuev - or a tedious defeat as in Wlad then he deserves criticism.

Haye has defrauded boxing fans, but worse than that he has defrauded non-boxing fans who he attracted to the sport. Talking shit to sell something just to rip them off isn't admirable. If it was then used car salesman would be the most respected people on the planet.

veriton wrote:

Final round wrote:

veriton wrote:
On another tack, someone posted on here that Haye is good for boxing because he sells fights. That's BS. He is bad for boxing because he sells a product that is shit. He's like one of those rogues Roger Cook used to get hold off selling fake TVs at Sunday markets.

If he'd gone out and destroyed Wlad would you still hold that view? Just wondering if this is just more fall out from the disappointment of Hamburg or was it Haye's fault Audley couldn't be bothered to throw a punch too?

If Haye sold a fight on the premise he was going to do something explosive and then whimpered his way to a mind-numbing win - as he did against Harrison and Valuev - or a tedious defeat as in Wlad then he deserves criticism.

Haye has defrauded boxing fans, but worse than that he has defrauded non-boxing fans who he attracted to the sport. Talking shit to sell something just to rip them off isn't admirable. If it was then used car salesman would be the most respected people on the planet.

Lol i love the way these 'mind-numbing' wins are always Haye's fault. There's two people in the ring! btw the Valuev fight got loads watching, boring yes apart from the wobble in the last,some of the same people probably watched Ruiz then Harrison and in all these fight's he fought the same as he always does!

Fighters always make promises they don't keep. If anyone took his words on face value after watching his counter punching style before and expected the British Mike Tyson that's there own stupid gullible faults.

BIGMARK wrote:where are you Saxon? i answer your loaded Holyfield question to get not reply :(

Oi its Jon to you ya big kunt

Right Mark I saved the best for last for you as I knew I had to think hard before responding to your well written argument.
So what i did last night when I got back from hospital was to watch Lewisv Holy 2 just for you!

First off, the reach issue,
Holy gets under Wlad and bull rushes him by double jabbing and tripple stepping, Wlads arse would colapse from the first round AND would cut up VERY quickly, you think Haye cut his face up? Imagine what I prime (and I mean Michael Dokes prime) Holy would do to Wlads mush.
Also Holy wouldnt alow Wlad to jab and grab as he would do the step back counter (ala Buster Douglas finishing uppercut) and again this would freak Wlad out also.
You see a shot (yes I believe that he was shot just after 2nd Tyson fight) comander Vander had the abilty to get in and nearly ko a prime Lewis with a big left hand to the temple 9which wobbled Lennox bigtime) then I believe that Wlads whole 'big thigh forward, back peddling using two steps back trick' would fail him bigtime as Holy uses the 3 to 4 steps forward while throwing the double jab and with no fear and whats coming back at him is he was always an inteligent brawler.

This fight is about footwork and not power, though Holy does have both.

Remember this guys like Eddie Chambers etc are lasting into the fights late, but we are talking about "the real deal" here and the man had a great double jab, and wanted to get right into action with speed & power, great timing and accuracy.
In my opinion he is the best rounded HW in history and on the night he beat Douglas (though Douglas should have been harpooned Mark but the same arguement is often used with Ali v Williams as Big Cat Williams was shot to pieces literaly at that point) no matter who was in front of him..Holyfield beats any fighter in history at the weight on this night IMO.

Have a good look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KevxBvwF_-Q
watch how quickly he gets in on Douglas who is trying to box on the back foot (I know Wlad is better at fighting scared but my point is Holy would take 1 or 2 to give 4 or 6) its his speed of foot and bravery that would make Wlads back stepping plan fail in my opinion, Holy was mega quick at getting inside and i dont believe Wlad could cope with the relentless speed & agrression.
BTW I also believe that Holy on this night stops prime Lewis in 7 or 9 rounds if not sooner.
Give it a really good watch mark and let me know what you think.

Cheers big man

BIGMARK wrote:

Jon Saxon wrote:

BIGMARK wrote:where are you Saxon? i answer your loaded Holyfield question to get not reply :(

Oi its Jon to you ya big kunt

Right Mark I saved the best for last for you as I knew I had to think hard before responding to your well written argument.
So what i did last night when I got back from hospital was to watch Lewisv Holy 2 just for you!

First off, the reach issue,
Holy gets under Wlad and bull rushes him by double jabbing and tripple stepping, Wlads arse would colapse from the first round AND would cut up VERY quickly, you think Haye cut his face up? Imagine what I prime (and I mean Michael Dokes prime) Holy would do to Wlads mush.
Also Holy wouldnt alow Wlad to jab and grab as he would do the step back counter (ala Buster Douglas finishing uppercut) and again this would freak Wlad out also.
You see a shot (yes I believe that he was shot just after 2nd Tyson fight) comander Vander had the abilty to get in and nearly ko a prime Lewis with a big left hand to the temple 9which wobbled Lennox bigtime) then I believe that Wlads whole 'big thigh forward, back peddling using two steps back trick' would fail him bigtime as Holy uses the 3 to 4 steps forward while throwing the double jab and with no fear and whats coming back at him is he was always an inteligent brawler.

This fight is about footwork and not power, though Holy does have both.

Remember this guys like Eddie Chambers etc are lasting into the fights late, but we are talking about "the real deal" here and the man had a great double jab, and wanted to get right into action with speed & power, great timing and accuracy.
In my opinion he is the best rounded HW in history and on the night he beat Douglas (though Douglas should have been harpooned Mark but the same arguement is often used with Ali v Williams as Big Cat Williams was shot to pieces literaly at that point) no matter who was in front of him..Holyfield beats any fighter in history at the weight on this night IMO.

Have a good look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KevxBvwF_-Q
watch how quickly he gets in on Douglas who is trying to box on the back foot (I know Wlad is better at fighting scared but my point is Holy would take 1 or 2 to give 4 or 6) its his speed of foot and bravery that would make Wlads back stepping plan fail in my opinion, Holy was mega quick at getting inside and i dont believe Wlad could cope with the relentless speed & agrression.
BTW I also believe that Holy on this night stops prime Lewis in 7 or 9 rounds if not sooner.
Give it a really good watch mark and let me know what you think.

Cheers big man

Nice come back Jon and i think we have both made valid points. This is a real interesting match up a prime Holyfield Vs a prime Wlad and no doubt after the hype would of let us down. I'm with you with Holyfield being a fantastic athlete and almost IMO the complete boxer but i feel there are limits to what he could of done in the ring against a man so athleticlly gift and big as Wlad. Dont get me wrong i would be shouting for Holyfield but still believe a prime Wlad beats a prime Evander. Holyfield is one of the most gifted heavies of all time but we are talking new breed here and it would be a top draw heavy Vs top draw Superheavy and this i feel is where the difference would lie.

Wlad and his team have almost invented a style that unless you are his equal phyiscal or athleticlly you are in for a tough night. His safety first aproach is not the best to watch but when carried out to it's max is very effective. I get what you say about Holyfield cutting him up etc but i wouldnt see Wlad fighting Evander excactly the same way he did Haye as Evander brings more to the table which would mean a more safety first aproach which IMO leads to a very boring UD win for Wlad.

I like version of HOlyfield between say the Douglas fight and the 2nd Tyson one which i think we all would agree he was at his prime. But remember he struggled a bit with Holmes/Foreman at times and although there are wins over Bowe/Mercer there was also Smokin Bert. I know fighters like Holmes/Foreman/Bowe/Mercer were all big men but i would hardly put there conditioning on a par with Wlad who is equaly prepared physical as Holyfield ever was.
Evander IMO opinion won a lot of fights just through being the better conditioned man and does make you wonder what a lard arse like Bowe could of actually done with the right preparation.


I'm not saying it wouldnt be impossible for Holyfield to beat Wlad but over 10 fights i would expect 8 or 9 times a Wlad victory

Fair valid points, we shall agree to differ Mark, I just think that Lewis kills Wlad and he fought 'taller' better than Wlad and If an old Evander reached Lennox then surely the Douglas version (who was much faster and still had 'the chin') would have freaked Wald out of his rhythm.

But we shall never know


One last thing I believe that Sanders was Wlads 'Ken Norton' and would ko him 8/10 times.

Ps did you watch the youtube clip? I had forgoten how good Holy was, his ring generalship was a sight to behold.

BIGMARK wrote:

Jon Saxon wrote:

BIGMARK wrote: Nice come back Jon and i think we have both made valid points. This is a real interesting match up a prime Holyfield Vs a prime Wlad and no doubt after the hype would of let us down. I'm with you with Holyfield being a fantastic athlete and almost IMO the complete boxer but i feel there are limits to what he could of done in the ring against a man so athleticlly gift and big as Wlad. Dont get me wrong i would be shouting for Holyfield but still believe a prime Wlad beats a prime Evander. Holyfield is one of the most gifted heavies of all time but we are talking new breed here and it would be a top draw heavy Vs top draw Superheavy and this i feel is where the difference would lie.

Wlad and his team have almost invented a style that unless you are his equal phyiscal or athleticlly you are in for a tough night. His safety first aproach is not the best to watch but when carried out to it's max is very effective. I get what you say about Holyfield cutting him up etc but i wouldnt see Wlad fighting Evander excactly the same way he did Haye as Evander brings more to the table which would mean a more safety first aproach which IMO leads to a very boring UD win for Wlad.

I like version of HOlyfield between say the Douglas fight and the 2nd Tyson one which i think we all would agree he was at his prime. But remember he struggled a bit with Holmes/Foreman at times and although there are wins over Bowe/Mercer there was also Smokin Bert. I know fighters like Holmes/Foreman/Bowe/Mercer were all big men but i would hardly put there conditioning on a par with Wlad who is equaly prepared physical as Holyfield ever was.
Evander IMO opinion won a lot of fights just through being the better conditioned man and does make you wonder what a lard arse like Bowe could of actually done with the right preparation.


I'm not saying it wouldnt be impossible for Holyfield to beat Wlad but over 10 fights i would expect 8 or 9 times a Wlad victory

Fair valid points, we shall agree to differ Mark, I just think that Lewis kills Wlad and he fought 'taller' better than Wlad and If an old Evander reached Lennox then surely the Douglas version (who was much faster and still had 'the chin') would have freaked Wald out of his rhythm.

But we shall never know


One last thing I believe that Sanders was Wlads 'Ken Norton' and would ko him 8/10 times.

Ps did you watch the youtube clip? I had forgoten how good Holy was, his ring generalship was a sight to behold.

Lewis for me was Wlad like but just a fair superior version and althought not quite as big he was a better athlete with a lot more guts. The version of Wlad that lost Saunders gets beaten by most top fighters through the age as he was so square on and his defence just full of holes. The Wlad that got beaten by Saunders reminds me of the Lewis that got beaten by McCall and both men had their faults straightened out by Manny Stewart who deserves a lot of credit in the way of their careers developed.

I watched the clip and yes Evander had a great ring generalship but lets face it that Douglas was not the same man who became the first to beat Tyson. there is a good book which i think is called "the last great fight" about the Douglas - Tyson fight and what happened before and after. You are of that era so it's worth checking at and is a good read.

The same logic can be apllied to Ali's best fight against a shot Williams if you see what i mean?

As for the book I'm going to order it right now.

BTW Mark have you read 'years of the locust'? my favourite boxing book besides dark trade.

BIGMARK wrote:I will check that book out as we are it seems on the same page as i to rate Dark Trade very highly.

I see what you mean about Ali and agree, i dont even what to start thinking about an Ali-Wlad clash

You will love the book, its some real dark boxing shit though but a riveting read.

Moderators! This thread has wandered seriously off topic, force the posters to rewind and tell me how great I am again please.

Glyn Leach wrote:Moderators! This thread has wandered seriously off topic, force the posters to rewind and tell me how shite I am again please.

Do what the man says, chaps.

Trash mag, poor feature.

Fickle bastards

No just fick.

Change of article, the Ed Robinson feature: Couldn't believe this, but Ed sent me a couple of bottles of wine to the office yesterday as a 'thank you for making my mum proud'. Unreal! No one's ever done anything remotely approaching that in the 22 years I've been at BM! Ed truly is a decent bloke, class act.

Glyn Leach wrote:Change of article, the Ed Robinson feature: Couldn't believe this, but Ed sent me a couple of bottles of wine to the office yesterday as a 'thank you for making my mum proud'. Unreal! No one's ever done anything remotely approaching that in the 22 years I've been at BM! Ed truly is a decent bloke, class act.

Don't you'll make me cry...nice gesture.

Scottrf wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:Change of article, the Ed Robinson feature: Couldn't believe this, but Ed sent me a couple of bottles of wine to the office yesterday as a 'thank you for making my mum proud'. Unreal! No one's ever done anything remotely approaching that in the 22 years I've been at BM! Ed truly is a decent bloke, class act.

Don't you'll make me cry...nice gesture.

Tell ya, I got a little knot in me stomach ... then I remembered I'm a man and began firing off racist and sexist emails to any woman who dares comment on boxing.

Glyn Leach wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:Change of article, the Ed Robinson feature: Couldn't believe this, but Ed sent me a couple of bottles of wine to the office yesterday as a 'thank you for making my mum proud'. Unreal! No one's ever done anything remotely approaching that in the 22 years I've been at BM! Ed truly is a decent bloke, class act.

Don't you'll make me cry...nice gesture.

Tell ya, I got a little knot in me stomach ... then I remembered I'm a man and began firing off racist and sexist emails to any woman who dares comment on boxing.

that's how REAL boxing journalists act, Glyn. trust me.

Counter-puncher wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:

Scottrf wrote: Don't you'll make me cry...nice gesture.

Tell ya, I got a little knot in me stomach ... then I remembered I'm a man and began firing off racist and sexist emails to any woman who dares comment on boxing.

that's how REAL boxing journalists act, Glyn. trust me.

Adios.

Glyn Leach wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Glyn Leach wrote:Change of article, the Ed Robinson feature: Couldn't believe this, but Ed sent me a couple of bottles of wine to the office yesterday as a 'thank you for making my mum proud'. Unreal! No one's ever done anything remotely approaching that in the 22 years I've been at BM! Ed truly is a decent bloke, class act.

Don't you'll make me cry...nice gesture.

Tell ya, I got a little knot in me stomach ... then I remembered I'm a man and began firing off racist and sexist emails to any woman who dares comment on boxing.

Sexist and Racialism in the same post....the stock of Boxing monthly has taken a big tumble. I'll take it off your hands for what ever price Joey Barton sells for. No arguments.

Really enjoyed this month's issue.

Had to go to France... 6 am flight so was up at 4... Saved this month's issue to ease the pain and read it on the flight.

Loved the inquest. Brilliant. Absolutely top class magazine. Big thanks to all who work on it.

One tiny moan... Does the lettering on the cover have to be blood splattered? I love Fangoria and horror magazines as much as the next geek but boxing is a noble art... It shouldn't be a B-Movie...