See the official scorecards for Pacquiao v Marquez

[veriton]

Look at the scorecards, see how they work in relation to each other, and justify that statement. On the evidence of the cards you can call them incompetent if you like but not bent.

Lovely or not, good or bad, the judges clearly scored the second half of the fight subjectively, the figures don't lie. From eight onwards there wasn't one round in which they were all in agreement, and in one case, the drawn card official, a judge gave three rounds on the trot to JMM that his colleagues gave to Pac. They clearly were not acting together nor even towards the same end.

And once again I point out I had JMM winning by 115-113. I've got no agenda here, I'm just viewing it logically and examining how the fight was scored, rather than emotionally.

you are talking as though the only scenario possible is that the scorecards were actually decided as the fight progressed.

OK, so they had it all planned out beforehand yeah? 'You do this and I'll do that.' Now I see ... Doesn't happen Veriton. They can't predict the run of a fight beforehand so they can't plan like that. You've got three blokes sitting in isolation from each other at ringside, no way of communicating during the fight. They can't go into the fight with a plan like that, there are so many ways it could go wrong — knockdowns, points deductions for fouls etc. Or maybe they've got secret spy microphones and headsets and are taking instructions from 'Mr Big' during the fight ...

I would think it would be quite easy to work out beforehand over lunch. I'll give Pacman this amount of rounds, you do that and you make it a draw so it doesn't look so obvious. They don't need to explain their actions afterwards and, guaranteed, there will be plenty of people trotting out the "subjective scoring" lines to cover their tracks for them anyway.

I don't see how anyone could score that fight for Pacman. Roach and Pacquiao didn't think they had won, and they are honest men (until voices whisper in their ear and fantasy gets peddled as reality)

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

taken from the current scene

Various boxing writer's scorecards:

Harold Lederman, HBO: 115-114 Pacquio
Dan Rafael, ESPN: 114-114
Michael Rosenthal, The Ring: 115-113 Pacquiao
Eric Raskin, HBO: 116-112 Marquez
Doug Fisher, The Ring: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports: 114-114
Jake Donovan, Boxing Scene.com: 115-113 Pacquiao
Steve Kim, Maxboxing.com: 115-113 Marquez

The thing is journos need to keep in with Bob Arum and Pacman, so I take this with a punch of salt. I have a link to the fight if anyone wants it, follow this link which links to the link (Does that circumvent the rules?)

http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/sho ... p?t=358586

[LeedsLad]

Exactly.

Roach is a pretty good judge and at the midway point he was pleading with Manny to step it up as he was falling behind.

The 2nd half of the fight was pretty nip and tuck, look at the body language in the corner, Marquez is confident and being told to box calmly, Pac is being told that he needs a knockout to win.

It was an utter disgrace.

[Glyn Leach]

taken from the current scene

Various boxing writer's scorecards:

Harold Lederman, HBO: 115-114 Pacquio
Dan Rafael, ESPN: 114-114
Michael Rosenthal, The Ring: 115-113 Pacquiao
Eric Raskin, HBO: 116-112 Marquez
Doug Fisher, The Ring: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports: 114-114
Jake Donovan, Boxing Scene.com: 115-113 Pacquiao
Steve Kim, Maxboxing.com: 115-113 Marquez

The thing is journos need to keep in with Bob Arum and Pacman, so I take this with a punch of salt. Check your inbox BB

Even the journos who scored for JMM, and there were more than a few? Or maybe they can do without Bob and Manny, that must be it.

Another argument full of holes...

[ALI]

Look at the scorecards, see how they work in relation to each other, and justify that statement. On the evidence of the cards you can call them incompetent if you like but not bent.

Lovely or not, good or bad, the judges clearly scored the second half of the fight subjectively, the figures don't lie. From eight onwards there wasn't one round in which they were all in agreement, and in one case, the drawn card official, a judge gave three rounds on the trot to JMM that his colleagues gave to Pac. They clearly were not acting together nor even towards the same end.

And once again I point out I had JMM winning by 115-113. I've got no agenda here, I'm just viewing it logically and examining how the fight was scored, rather than emotionally.

you are talking as though the only scenario possible is that the scorecards were actually decided as the fight progressed.

OK, so they had it all planned out beforehand yeah? 'You do this and I'll do that.' Now I see ... Doesn't happen Veriton. They can't predict the run of a fight beforehand so they can't plan like that. You've got three blokes sitting in isolation from each other at ringside, no way of communicating during the fight. They can't go into the fight with a plan like that, there are so many ways it could go wrong — knockdowns, points deductions for fouls etc. Or maybe they've got secret spy microphones and headsets and are taking instructions from 'Mr Big' during the fight ...

Ok Glynn, who could ever have dreamed up such an allegation, its a scandelous thought, right? Boxing, corrupt decisions???

I'm not labelling any accusations over last nights result, i think Marquez clearly deserved the win, but i'll admit the rounds were close and there are far better examples of dodgy decisions than this. However, you cannot blame someone for being slightly suspicious here, Pacquiao is a cash cow and the likes of Top Rank, HBO, MGM Grand, Las Vegas etc etc etc all thrive off his success, so its only natural, giving the sh*tty reputation that boxing has for being corrupt, that one would raise an eyebrow at last nights decsion. Well, at least those that thought Marquez was a clear winner anyway.

[Glyn Leach]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

[veriton]

Reasons why some journos made Pacman the winner:

They are in love with the image of Pacman as the saviour of boxing and don't want to ruin the party
They picked him before and said Marquez was too small and didn't want to look like assholes afterwards if JMM won
They love to see a fighter walking forward, and dont count anything as more valuable
They are bent, on the take or hoping to be put on the payroll
They want to see the Mayweather fight and knew a Pacman loss would kill it, so they protected it at all costs

[ALI]

Exactly.

Roach is a pretty good judge and at the midway point he was pleading with Manny to step it up as he was falling behind.

The 2nd half of the fight was pretty nip and tuck, look at the body language in the corner, Marquez is confident and being told to box calmly, Pac is being told that he needs a knockout to win.

It was an utter disgrace.

Spot on, Roach knew his guy was behind.

When the final bell sounds, just look at Pacquiao's body language, also Ariza and Roach. They did not have the look of a winner, they knew they needed a gift, and surprise surprise, they got it!

[Yes We Can]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

Would it not be appropriate for judges to also make a short note during round breaks as to why they scored a round that way.... even a tick box category?

This could seriously help give fans logic and reasoning at the end of a close and or unjust decision.

[exittored]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

Glyn what the hell is going on with some of these british guys? honestly it's like a certain madness has overtaken this forum.

Are they say that respected journos and Judges like Harold Lederman or Dan Raphael are all part of the conspiracy..please!

There is an obvious difference in how HBO and Primetime(or whoever the fornicate showed it) called the fights, maybe both swung the wrong way but if people think Marquez won then that's fine but there is no fornicating way he won 8 or 9 rds the way some are having it and to call it a robbery is just insane. The home fighter simply got a very close decision, that's just the way it goes and there is no doubt that over the course of 3 fights there is a cigarette paper between both and yes maybe it should have been Marquez's turn to get a tight one this time.

My overall feeling straight after the fight was that Marquez won but boxing is scored on a rd by rd basis and there were too many rds there for the taking that Marquez simply didn't do enough in or take enough risks to close it out no questions asked.

I personally had Pac winning 3 out of the first 4 rds, then i had Marquez winning 4 out of the next 6 rds, he won the 11th rd too but then insanely his trainer Nacho gave him the impression he was winning and instead of Marquez givng it all in the last he did the opposite and gave the rd to Pacman which on my scorecard made it a DRAW and had Marquez won the 12th it would have been a DRAW on the official cards too.

Just some other comments.

Pac hasn't been the same fighter with that same spark since he started his politcal career at the time of the Clottey fight. He's lost that Killer instinct and i've noticed he's been going through the motions during rds in his last 4 fights against Clottey, Margarito, Mosley and now Marquez. He almost dosen't seem interested or his mind is elsewhere.

Roach had a terrible night, his advice just seemed weak and he seemed lost in what to say to Manny. It probably didn't help that Buboy was pratically shouting at Manny all night between rds.

One good thing is that it's almost a certainty now that Pac vs Mayweather will be made for May 5th, i'm sure Arum see's Mannys time coming to an end soon so knows he better cash out soon or lose that big golden payday from the Mayweather fight.

[LeedsLad]

I don't see what it does to bring a Floyd fight closer to be honest.

Manny just got his ass beat bad, it would probably have been better for him to have lost the decision, then come back and with the 4th fight in convincing fashion (if this is possible) which would force it.

As it is, nobody with half a clue scored that fight to Manny, unless you consider being disarmed and constantly missing to be superior to beating your opponent to the punch and landing hard counters all night.

Hell, even Khan had Marquez a clear winner, to the point of wanting to avenge his friend's ''defeat'', when in reality he's probably more likely to be pro-Pac than anybody.

[ALI]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

Get a grip man, would someone please pick up Glyn's toys and put them back in his pram, thanks.

Believe me when i say i'm NOT calling last nights result a corrupt decision, my point is that you must be rather nieve to state with 100% certainty that there is no possibility of such a thing having happened.

[Glyn Leach]

One good thing is that it's almost a certainty now that Pac vs Mayweather will be made for May 5th, i'm sure Arum see's Mannys time coming to an end soon so knows he better cash out soon or lose that big golden payday from the Mayweather fight.

I'm not so sure. Top Rank are shit scared of Manny losing because it will hurt his political aspirations at home. Arum wants that on his CV — the promoter who created a President. From last night I think we saw how a top flight operator with the right approach, which I think Mayweather shares with Marquez, can make life very difficult for Manny. And Mayweather is much bigger than Marquez (and Manny). It wouldn't surprise me if the Mayweather fight is off the table now, Manny has one more match, a farewell fight, and then retires before he gets beaten — because he will if he fights Mayweather.

[Glyn Leach]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

Get a grip man, would someone please pick up Glyn's toys and put them back in his pram, thanks.

Believe me when i say i'm NOT calling last nights result a corrupt decision, my point is that you must be rather nieve to state with 100% certainty that there is no possibility of such a thing having happened.

No toys but I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall all afternoon, not very productive. You lads get it out of your system, I understand. It was disappointing.

[nh1]

I'm amazed at some of the comments on here so far.

Marquez for me by an absolute mile.

And the decision was indeed a disgrace.

[exittored]

Wh
y do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Whatever, I'm ducking out on this subject now, I've made my rational points — and remember, I had JMM winning too. I'll let the posters who just want to moan get on with it uninterrupted by irritating stuff like facts. Enjoy!

Get a grip man, would someone please pick up Glyn's toys and put them back in his pram, thanks.

Believe me when i say i'm NOT calling last nights result a corrupt decision, my point is that you must be rather nieve to state with 100% certainty that there is no possibility of such a thing having happened.

No toys but I'm not going to bang my head against a brick wall all afternoon, not very productive. You lads get it out of your system, I understand. It was disappointing.

Yeah best leave them to it with their conspiracies, i'm not exactly a fan of punch stats but maybe they think there was a conspiracy with the punch stats too:

CompuBox statistics: total punches landed, Pacquiao 176 of 578 and Marquez 138 of 436
CompuBox statistics: power punches landed, Pacquiao 117 and Marquez 100

When you look at them it's very easy to see how the judges could have Manny winning the fight.

[EJW]

Do people really think this is some shady scoring for Arum and the Pac team? American judges, as long as I can remember have always been criticised for favouring fighters who go forward and instigate the action, which is what Pac did all night. I thought Marquez did more than enough to nullify most of Pac's attacks and win rounds and I was disappointed by the decision, but I won't pack the sport in like some have been saying. I doubt they will too, they'll be back for the next big fight.

I get the idea of favouring the fighter moving forwards, but that theory falls flat on its face when the 'aggressive' fighter fails to instigate any action whatsoever. Marquez set the pace (his pace, and the pace he HAD to fight at), he moved Manny around the ring with footwork and set traps in each and every round. Despite the fact that he was moving forwards a lot, Pacquiao was the one reacting to everything Marquez did/set up. He fought Marquez' fight.

That's what confuses me about the whole thing. I could understand the 'Pacquiao pushed the pace' theory if there was actually an iota of truth to it. All Manny did was stumble forward, load up on his left hand, overshoot and walk into counterpunches, though.

[Quixall]

Marquez won and the result was cooked to keep open and hype up the Mayweather fight and make loads of money...........

People can write long winded analysis, but the vast majority of people saw a clear victory for Marquez !!

You could hear Roach saying he was behind, Khan thought he had lost, the other commentator did, look at Pacquaio's body language, even look at his wife's face at ringside. Then see what Bunce, Andy Kerr and Steve Collins thought. Then listen to the crowd when the decision was announced and finally look at the comments on the forum !! I could go on...................

Bent as a corkscrew.

[Quixall]

People can write long winded analysis, but the vast majority of people saw a clear victory for Marquez !!

Nowt wrong with being long winded when it comes to this one as it is slightly more complicated than 'Marquez got effing robbed!' The people on Twitter and whatnot who are just trotting that line out are part of the problem as some of the arguments amount to this.

'Marquez got robbed!'

"How do you figure that one out?'

'Because he effing did that's why. Haven't you seen any of those Hollywood films about boxing. It is bent.'

'Cheers for that.'

Not saying anyone of yous are taking this line, but some are.

Granted, there will be a lot of flipancy either way and your right in saying that it could be more complex and deserves analysis, but from my view of the fight i thought Marquez clearly won. Not by a landslide as Bunce et al, but clearly by three rounds at least and sometimes the overall atmosphere and majority of comments give you a pretty good indication of what went off.

[exittored]

Punch stats don't tell the story of a fight, like you said in another thread rounds are scored individually.

I am shocked that Manny landed so many more, I really didn't see that watching it last night.

Well it happened and there was no conspiracy or bent judges.

The simple fact is going into the last rd, one judge had it Marquez up by 1rd and another had it Pac by 1rd so if Marquez hadn't given that rd away when it was there for the taking he would have ended up with a draw.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Are they say that respected journos and Judges like Harold Lederman or Dan Raphael are all part of the conspiracy..please!.

Respected Both are know nothings, honestly look at ESPN highlights - it only showed Manny landing punches, nothing from Marquez

Well it happened and there was no conspiracy or bent judges..

Yes boxing is the least corrupt sport How long have you muppets followed the sport

[exittored]

One good thing is that it's almost a certainty now that Pac vs Mayweather will be made for May 5th, i'm sure Arum see's Mannys time coming to an end soon so knows he better cash out soon or lose that big golden payday from the Mayweather fight.

I'm not so sure. Top Rank are shit scared of Manny losing because it will hurt his political aspirations at home. Arum wants that on his CV — the promoter who created a President. From last night I think we saw how a top flight operator with the right approach, which I think Mayweather shares with Marquez, can make life very difficult for Manny. And Mayweather is much bigger than Marquez (and Manny). It wouldn't surprise me if the Mayweather fight is off the table now, Manny has one more match, a farewell fight, and then retires before he gets beaten — because he will if he fights Mayweather.

Yes Arum is involved in democratic politics and would like to be responsible for creating a President but his Promoter side will see sense especially after last night.

Having dipped my toe into the boxing and mma fight business, these guys won't hesitate to cash in when they see their boxer is past his past or not up to it in the first place and in many ways i don't blame them. Maloney did it recently with Dallas after what he saw against Zach Page and knew he wasn't going anywhere and Shelly Finkel did it with Tyson against Lewis as he knew Mike could lose anytime and lose that big cheque for fighting Lewis so made the fight even though he would have known his fighter had no chance at all.

I think Manny will fight Mayweather next and win or lose will probably finish his career with a 4th fight against Marquez then retire.

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

Can you sort your quotes out, PN.

Sorry bud

[Phenomenal-Nutrition]

taken from the current scene

Various boxing writer's scorecards:

Harold Lederman, HBO: 115-114 Pacquio
Dan Rafael, ESPN: 114-114
Michael Rosenthal, The Ring: 115-113 Pacquiao
Eric Raskin, HBO: 116-112 Marquez
Doug Fisher, The Ring: 114-114
Kevin Iole, Yahoo! Sports: 114-114
Jake Donovan, Boxing Scene.com: 115-113 Pacquiao
Steve Kim, Maxboxing.com: 115-113 Marquez

This is wrong Lederman had it 116-112

[ALI]

Why do people WANT a conspiracy here? That's for the muppets who don't know boxing, surely, not people who know their stuff. That only helps the perception of boxing being corrupt.

Hey Glyn, as you know boxing so well, who was responsible for appointing the judges for Saturday nights fight?