BoxRec

hhaehre wrote:For those who think size would have been a major factor in favor of a RJJ win it's fair to point out that SRR easily handled Maxim at 175 before he suffered the heath stroke and Maxim was a strong dude.

Would it be fair to point out that Maxim outlasted him and won that fight and that Maxim bears no similiarities to Roy Jones?

The End wrote:

hhaehre wrote:For those who think size would have been a major factor in favor of a RJJ win it's fair to point out that SRR easily handled Maxim at 175 before he suffered the heath stroke and Maxim was a strong dude.

Would it be fair to point out that Maxim outlasted him and won that fight and that Maxim bears no similiarities to Roy Jones?

True statement, but SRR gets it.

hhaehre wrote:For those who think size would have been a major factor in favor of a RJJ win it's fair to point out that SRR easily handled Maxim at 175 before he suffered the heath stroke and Maxim was a strong dude.

He wasnt really handling him the way the legend tells, although he was winning.

The End wrote:

hhaehre wrote:For those who think size would have been a major factor in favor of a RJJ win it's fair to point out that SRR easily handled Maxim at 175 before he suffered the heath stroke and Maxim was a strong dude.

Would it be fair to point out that Maxim outlasted him and won that fight and that Maxim bears no similiarities to Roy Jones?

It would not be pertinent to the point I was trying to make, namely that RJJ at 175 pounds would not be too big a fighter for SRR to handle.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

hhaehre wrote:For those who think size would have been a major factor in favor of a RJJ win it's fair to point out that SRR easily handled Maxim at 175 before he suffered the heath stroke and Maxim was a strong dude.

He wasnt really handling him the way the legend tells, although he was winning.

Wasn't close imo but Maxim made him work for it of course.

Robinson was clearly winning, but he found he could not hurt Maxim --- & here's the part no one touches on --- he NEVER stopped trying to do just that. You can see that fact contribute to his downfall. It's just never brought up, unfortunately.

The End wrote:Vice versa?

I thought that someone would have answered this in detial by now. I will take up the gauntlet then.
(And please bear in mind that I don't pretend to be an expert on Sugar Ray - he was before my time and anything I seen of him was wither from boxing documentaries (I've seen a handful on him) or fights on Youtube.

Take the time to look at Sugar Ray Robinson's record, I know it's long, but look at in depth:
Robinson defeated a multitiude of good fighters:
Jake LaMotta (5 times & LaMotta always massively outweighed, the minimum was 9 lbs)
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan (twice)
Rocky Graziano
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basillio
Bobo Olson (4 times)
Randy Turpin
Fritzie Zivic (twice)

Abnd, in dealing with a list like that, I'm pretty sure a prime Robinson would dispose of Jones Jr.

And who has RJJ defeated in comparison to Robinson?

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Felix Trinidad
John Ruiz
Antonio Tarver
Monetell Griffin
Thomas Tate
Mike McCallum
Virgil Hill
Omar Sheika
Jeff Lacy

Beating none of these guys compares to dealing with SRR.

Crease wrote:

The End wrote:Vice versa?

I thought that someone would have answered this in detial by now. I will take up the gauntlet then.
(And please bear in mind that I don't pretend to be an expert on Sugar Ray - he was before my time and anything I seen of him was wither from boxing documentaries (I've seen a handful on him) or fights on Youtube.

Take the time to look at Sugar Ray Robinson's record, I know it's long, but look at in depth:
Robinson defeated a multitiude of good fighters:
Jake LaMotta (5 times & LaMotta always massively outweighed, the minimum was 9 lbs)
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan (twice)
Rocky Graziano
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basillio
Bobo Olson (4 times)
Randy Turpin
Fritzie Zivic (twice)

Abnd, in dealing with a list like that, I'm pretty sure a prime Robinson would dispose of Jones Jr.

Great fighters definitely but which was even remotely similar to Jones? Apples and oranges here Crease.

The End wrote:

Crease wrote:

The End wrote:Vice versa?

I thought that someone would have answered this in detial by now. I will take up the gauntlet then.
(And please bear in mind that I don't pretend to be an expert on Sugar Ray - he was before my time and anything I seen of him was wither from boxing documentaries (I've seen a handful on him) or fights on Youtube.

Take the time to look at Sugar Ray Robinson's record, I know it's long, but look at in depth:
Robinson defeated a multitiude of good fighters:
Jake LaMotta (5 times & LaMotta always massively outweighed, the minimum was 9 lbs)
Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan (twice)
Rocky Graziano
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basillio
Bobo Olson (4 times)
Randy Turpin
Fritzie Zivic (twice)

Abnd, in dealing with a list like that, I'm pretty sure a prime Robinson would dispose of Jones Jr.

Great fighters definitely but which was even remotely similar to Jones? Apples and oranges here Crease.

Yep, solid fighters all, and some of them are All time greats, but none of them fight anything like Roy Jones Jr. fights

This thread is starting to look like a running sore for BOTP

The End wrote:Great fighters definitely but which was even remotely similar to Jones?

gilgamesh wrote:none of them fight anything like Roy Jones Jr. fights

I assume you both are employing the "styles make fights" agrument to reinforce your opinion of the result.

But the "styles make fights" adage is flawed because while this may be true for predicting exciting fights it does not always guarantee victories for the prominent style.

For example, the greatest boxers always find a way to win - they can outbox the boxers and outpunch the punchers. And there have been on many occasions in boxing, fighters who were disadvanted by their style against an opponent whose style is made to beat them.

But, the best boxers can, with practice, change things up to balance the odds in their favour by chaing their fighting styles.
For examples:

Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman: (Ali didn't dance and use his jab - he stood and traded shots)

Miguel Cotto vs Tony Margarito II: (Cotto used his speed and ringsmanship instead of standing toe-to-toe)

Carl Froch vs Arthur Abraham: (Froch employed his jab and dictated the fight at his own pace, instead of getting invovled in a slugfest).

Robinson had the tools to beatEVERYBODY!!! And even a Roy Jones Jr on his best day couldn't match the real Sugar Ray.

I can see either of them winning tbh. I think saying for a certainty that Robinson would win is a little knee jerk.
Jones' unorthodoxy was his best asset imo, a lot of his opponents would hesitate and that allowed him to dictate the action.
Who's to say Robinson wouldn't be just as befuddled? Turpin was quite unorthodox too, I've always seen him as a kind of prototype Ingle fighter. Robinson had a very tough time with him.


I do think Robinson going all out for the knockout would probably get him though. If he stood off it'd be tough for him.

mrbassie wrote: Who's to say Robinson wouldn't be just as befuddled? Turpin was quite unorthodox too, I've always seen him as a kind of prototype Ingle fighter. Robinson had a very tough time with him.


.

Turpin spent most of the first fight either jabbing or wrestling from memory, i don't think he gives much of a line on how Jones - SRR plays out myself.

Robinsons wins, no question of it. He would find a way - (and in this case, probably a stone-cold knockout)

Sugar Ray Robinson will win. By (KO)

mrbassie wrote:I can see either of them winning tbh. I think saying for a certainty that Robinson would win is a little knee jerk.
Jones' unorthodoxy was his best asset imo, a lot of his opponents would hesitate and that allowed him to dictate the action.
Who's to say Robinson wouldn't be just as befuddled? Turpin was quite unorthodox too, I've always seen him as a kind of prototype Ingle fighter. Robinson had a very tough time with him.

Yopu are judging Robinsons on the analysis of just one of his fights... Robinson beat better fighters than Roy Jones Jr.
Actually, the more I think of it, it becomes a question of levels... Robinsons is top notch, Jones is not.

Sugar would SMOKE Jones no doubt.

Crease wrote:

mrbassie wrote:I can see either of them winning tbh. I think saying for a certainty that Robinson would win is a little knee jerk.
Jones' unorthodoxy was his best asset imo, a lot of his opponents would hesitate and that allowed him to dictate the action.
Who's to say Robinson wouldn't be just as befuddled? Turpin was quite unorthodox too, I've always seen him as a kind of prototype Ingle fighter. Robinson had a very tough time with him.

Yopu are judging Robinsons on the analysis of just one of his fights... Robinson beat better fighters than Roy Jones Jr.
Actually, the more I think of it, it becomes a question of levels... Robinsons is top notch, Jones is not.

No I'm not, I've seen plenty of what footage there is. I just wonder if Robinson would win as easily as some others seem to think he would. I merely pointed out that he struggled with one particular somewhat awkward opponent. Jones was made out of awkwardness, in his day he was a very difficult puzzle to solve.

fighters just were a different breed back in the days. Sugar on his best day beats Roy or anybody else on thier best day.

I wouldn't pick Roy at Lt Heavy.

mrbassie wrote:

Crease wrote:

mrbassie wrote:I can see either of them winning tbh. I think saying for a certainty that Robinson would win is a little knee jerk.
Jones' unorthodoxy was his best asset imo, a lot of his opponents would hesitate and that allowed him to dictate the action.
Who's to say Robinson wouldn't be just as befuddled? Turpin was quite unorthodox too, I've always seen him as a kind of prototype Ingle fighter. Robinson had a very tough time with him.

Yopu are judging Robinsons on the analysis of just one of his fights... Robinson beat better fighters than Roy Jones Jr.
Actually, the more I think of it, it becomes a question of levels... Robinsons is top notch, Jones is not.

I know it is usually taboo at most places to suggest that Sugar Ray Robinson might actually lose fights, particularly to Jones Jr, but i don't see how Ray can be described as top notch and Jones not. On a pure class level, it is noteworthy that Toney, Hopkins, and Ruiz, who Jones dominated all did things that not only Ray's opponents but also Ray himself was unable to do. There are still some good reasons why you might want to pick robinson but class fact or the opposition beaten is not really one of them, i wouldn't have thought.

Yeah, I have no doubt that it would be competitive.

I think class of opposition is very significant, in point of fact.

Robinson crammed a galaxy of stars onto his victims' ledger. Jones? Well...

That's why Robinson is obviously far ahead in accomplishments and the clear favorite. That doesn't make Roy out of his league. Though I get that in ways everyone was.