Heavyweight Power of world champions

[marcianofan]

Fair enough, but I think the combo he landed on Stanley Ketchel would have knocked out anyone.

Maybe, but it's hard to know since Ketchel was a fairly small light heavyweight even by the standards of the time. It would be like prime Mike Tyson (or Joe Frazier if you want to make the weights a little closer) knocking out Joe Calzaghe in a flashy way. Not really enough of a surprise involved to give too much credit for it. Actually Ketchel was probably closer to Sergio Martinez' size when you consider re-hydration.

I understand that, but the man's teeth were lodged in his glove, I don't think size had much to do with that knockout.

Maybe Ketchel had the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS!!!!

Just kidding...I take your point. Though I do wonder a) why the hell Ketchel had his mouth open in such a way that his teeth were that exposed and b) how often we'd see similar things today if mouth pieces weren't worn. You've also got to keep in mind that the gloves they were wearing (correction welcome) were probably 5 oz. and harder than today's gloves. In truth that probably reflects negatively on the power of all the guys from that era. What the fighters are doing today, they're doing with relatively soft leather 10 oz gloves.

[dempseyfire]

Obviously a lot of room for debate when you've got cruisers and even super middleweights topping the division at various points in its history, as well as a lot of guys who fought an old-school style and under old-school rules that are very different from today's incarnation. Here's my impression fighter by fighter. And this is totally off the top of my head, with little or no new research involved:

John L. Sullivan- 2 (hard to say how good his opponents were in general and he failed to stop all of the accomplished ones)
Jim Corbett- 1
Bob Fitzsimmons- 4
Jim Jeffries- 7
Marvin Hart- 1 (never stopped any body good over 175 lbs, and even Root was a late stoppage)
Tommy Burns- 1
Jack Johnson- 7
Jess Willard- 5 (a fair number of stoppages against decent opposition, but many were of the relatively late-round variety)
Jack Dempsey- 10
Gene Tunney- 3 (not as bad at stopping opponents as I thought, but probably due to skill more than raw power)
Max Schmeling- 4 (seems to have added power as his career went on but Louis KO aside, he wasn't an ATG puncher)
Jack Sharkey- 3 (lots of decisions, but a few early KOs against quality fighters, too)
Primo Carnera- 5
Max Baer- 5 (not really that devastating a knockout record against top opposition)
Jim Braddock- 1
Joe Louis- 10
Ezzard Charles- 3 (at heavyweight, mind you)
Joe Walcott- 3 (went on a tear of knockouts for his title win and right before, but mostly won decisions over the course of his career against high-level opposition)
Rocky Marciano- 10
Floyd Patterson- 6 (power probably underrated due to how easily Liston walked over him- lots of mid-round stoppages of good fighters in prime)
Ingemar Johansson- 8
Sonny Liston- 10
Muhammad Ali- 4 (rarely flashed 1-punch power, due in part to his style)
Joe Frazier- 10 (I kinda feel like his one-punch power may be a little overrated, but I can't bring myself to give him a 9)
George Foreman- 10
Leon Spinks- 2 (best guy he ever stopped was Bernardo Mercado)
Larry Holmes- 4 (decent number of stoppages, but mostly late and on accumulation)
Michael Spinks- 3 (hard to quantify. He stopped two solid fighters, but failed to stop the two very good fighters he fought in his relatively short heavyweight career).
Mike Tyson- 10
Buster Douglas- 3 (Tyson was his only KO against top-10 opposition)
Evander Holyfield- 8
Riddick Bowe- 10
Michael Moorer- 2 (never knocked out a clear top 10 opponent)
Shannon Briggs ( )- 2 (probably too big not to have more power than this, but the only decent opponent he stopped was Liakhovich)
Lennox Lewis- 9 (very underrated puncher. Got lots of leverage and flattened all the big names he fought except Holyfield and Tua, who had all-time great chins)
Hasim Rahman- 3 (gets some credit for icing Lewis, but had Lewis' momentum helping him and his overall KO record isn't that great)
Vitali Klitschko- 9
Wladimir Klitschko- 9 (both he and his brother are giant guys with telephone-pole right hands and really good KO percentages)

Don't know why Johansson is getting so under-rated here . . .just an above-average boxer but his right cross carried Shavers-level power. It was the type of power that would change a fight in a second. Certainly in the first tier of HW champion punchers.

The Klitschkos are very hard hitters but are getting a little over-rated here. One reason why they have few early KOs or clean KOs in general is their style ensures that they don't utilize their legs and lower-body momentum into their punches like a Louis or Tyson do. I've seen way too many fairly average fighters take flush right hands from both brothers to put them in the first tier in terms of punching power.

[dempseyfire]

Maybe, but it's hard to know since Ketchel was a fairly small light heavyweight even by the standards of the time. It would be like prime Mike Tyson (or Joe Frazier if you want to make the weights a little closer) knocking out Joe Calzaghe in a flashy way. Not really enough of a surprise involved to give too much credit for it. Actually Ketchel was probably closer to Sergio Martinez' size when you consider re-hydration.

I understand that, but the man's teeth were lodged in his glove, I don't think size had much to do with that knockout.

Maybe Ketchel had the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS!!!!

Just kidding...I take your point. Though I do wonder a) why the hell Ketchel had his mouth open in such a way that his teeth were that exposed and b) how often we'd see similar things today if mouth pieces weren't worn. You've also got to keep in mind that the gloves they were wearing (correction welcome) were probably 5 oz. and harder than today's gloves. In truth that probably reflects negatively on the power of all the guys from that era. What the fighters are doing today, they're doing with relatively soft leather 10 oz gloves.

To the contrary, smaller, cruder gloves leaves less protection for the hands and thus generally lower KO percentages in that era.

As for the size of the gloves, they varied by jursdiction but in the 19teens were generally 4-6 ounces.

[marcianofan]

To the contrary, smaller, cruder gloves leaves less protection for the hands and thus generally lower KO percentages in that era.

As for the size of the gloves, they varied by jursdiction but in the 19teens were generally 4-6 ounces.

That makes sense, too. I guess it's pretty similar to the argument over whether the hits are harder in rugby or american football. On one hand, ruggers take their hits sans padding, but on the other hand football players can be more reckless with the power of their hits because they've got helmets and pads.

[Ezzard]

The teeth weren’t in the glove.

[Ezzard]

Dempsey, Baer, Louis, Liston, Foreman, Tyson

Sullivan, Jeffries, Marciano, Frazier, Lewis, Bowe

Schmeling, Walcott, Patterson, Johansson, Wlad, Rahman

[Ezzard]

The teeth weren’t in the glove.

Watch the video, you can clearly see Johnson knocking the teeth off from being stuck in the glove.

Seen it. Problem is he'd just hit him with the other glove.

[Ambling Alp]

Thought I would take a stab at this:

Tier 1-Dempsey,Louis,Marciano,Liston,Frazier,Foreman, Tyson, Lewis

Tier 2-Fitzsimmons, Jeffries,Baer,Walcott,Patterson,Johansson, Bowe

Tier 3-Burns,Johnson,Schmeling,Charles, Ali,Norton,Holmes,Douglas, Holyfield, Moorer,Rahman

Tier 4-Willard,Tunney,Carnera,Ellis, M. Spinks

Tier 5-Corbett,Hart,Sharkey,Braddock, L. Spinks

[Goodnight, Irene]

How did Ali get up on Willard?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

To the contrary, smaller, cruder gloves leaves less protection for the hands and thus generally lower KO percentages in that era.

As for the size of the gloves, they varied by jursdiction but in the 19teens were generally 4-6 ounces.

That makes sense, too. I guess it's pretty similar to the argument over whether the hits are harder in rugby or american football. On one hand, ruggers take their hits sans padding, but on the other hand football players can be more reckless with the power of their hits because they've got helmets and pads.

Football players would murder each other without pads.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

How did Ali get up on Willard?

Alp probably had to fight the urge to put Ali on tier 1. Other than that it's a damn solid grouping. I'd have Ali, Holmes & Johnson in tier 4.

[Ambling Alp]

Ali fits right tier 3. He was not a borderline choice to go up or down. He had a respectable ko% against by far the best competition. He obviously didn't have the power of a Foreman, but you have to have some power to stop Liston, Bonavena,Frazier, and Foreman.
Likewise Holmes had similar power and stopped several fighters that were hard to stop.

Johnson was borderline choice. Almost made him tier 4.
Willard was also borderline and almost made tier 3. He had a solid ko %, but his competition was not as good as many of the others. Besides the 26th round ko of a way past it Johnson, he stopped Floyd Johnson. After that, there really isn't much to speak of. From what is available on film, his power seems decent but nothing special.

Jack Sharkey had hand problems and didn't have much power and was 5th tier. Same for James Braddock. They may have had better power if it wasn't for that but those are the breaks. Neither were close to Ali, Holmes, or Johnson.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Citing the bouts with Liston, Bonavena, Frazier and Foreman is nothing short of dishonest, Alp. Not a-one of those victories were the result of Ali's power.

[Ambling Alp]

I am not being dishonest; that is my opinion. Yes fatigue and other factors were at work. However, you have to have something on your punches to stop fighters of this caliber and have that good of a chin. Bonavena was hurt badly from a left hook. Liston,Foreman and Frazier were all hurt in these fights.

[raylawpc]

Ali fits right tier 3. He was not a borderline choice to go up or down. He had a respectable ko% against by far the best competition. He obviously didn't have the power of a Foreman, but you have to have some power to stop Liston, Bonavena,Frazier, and Foreman.
Likewise Holmes had similar power and stopped several fighters that were hard to stop.

Johnson was borderline choice. Almost made him tier 4.
Willard was also borderline and almost made tier 3. He had a solid ko %, but his competition was not as good as many of the others. Besides the 26th round ko of a way past it Johnson, he stopped Floyd Johnson. After that, there really isn't much to speak of. From what is available on film, his power seems decent but nothing special.

Jack Sharkey had hand problems and didn't have much power and was 5th tier. Same for James Braddock. They may have had better power if it wasn't for that but those are the breaks. Neither were close to Ali, Holmes, or Johnson.

Willard killed a man. I think that evidences pretty good power. According to boxrec, 20 of his 23 wins were by kayo or stoppage.

[Ambling Alp]

Well, killing a man does not always have a lot to do with power. Schaaf died against Carnera. Paret vs Griffith. McCarty died in the ring and it was probably not becasue his opponet had power.

I always count a fighters, losses,draws, no-decisons etc. in a Ko %. The fighter % should go down if he doesn't ko his opponent. But yes, I have no problem bumping Willard up to Tier 3. He is borderline.

[Goodnight, Irene]

Well, killing a man does not always have a lot to do with power. Schaaf died against Carnera. Paret vs Griffith. McCarty died in the ring and it was probably not becasue his opponet had power.

I always count a fighters, losses,draws, no-decisons etc. in a Ko %. The fighter % should go down if he doesn't ko his opponent. But yes, I have no problem bumping Willard up to Tier 3. He is borderline.

Either does stopping a man. Case in point, Ali against Liston (1964). And Bonavena. And Foreman. And Frazier...

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Exactly, Vitali had the highest KO% for a title holder for a while and he isn't a big puncher by any stretch of the imagination. Ali had average or below average power for a Heavyweight champion and he made up for it with his other amazing skills and heart.

[Ambling Alp]

What I mean about Willard is that because he killed a man doesn't by itself mean he was a hard puncher. In many cases there was something wrong with a fighter before the bout ever took place. It should just count as a regular ko.

I don't mean that ko% is the end all be all by any means. It's just a starting point; like batting average in baseball. You have to look at the level of opposition. Someone with a high ko % against weak opposition might not be that hard of a puncher. Likewise, someone with a mediocre ko% but fought great competition.
He might be a hard puncher.

You have to consider things like accuuracy, the sheer volume of punches, and how good a finisher someone is. (Maybe he is a hard puncher but isn't good at finishing hurt opponents and thus has a low ko%)

However, if a fighter (like Ali) stopped several fighters who are hard to stop, you have to have at least decent power. Chris Byrd could have had all of Ali's other skills, and he would not have stopped Liston, Frazier, Bonavena, Foreman etc.
Besides, he had Foreman hurt in the 4th round, Liston in the 3rd. Frazier was hurt in the 2nd round of their 2nd fight. You have to have some power to do that early against that typ[e of cailber of opponents.

For a heavyweight champion, Ali had average power. A lot less than say Foreman, a lot more than say Jack Sharkey.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Nobody said Ali didn't punch harder than Chris Byrd. He is just a tier too high on your otherwise solid list.

[raylawpc]

Well, killing a man does not always have a lot to do with power. Schaaf died against Carnera. Paret vs Griffith. McCarty died in the ring and it was probably not becasue his opponet had power.

I always count a fighters, losses,draws, no-decisons etc. in a Ko %. The fighter % should go down if he doesn't ko his opponent. But yes, I have no problem bumping Willard up to Tier 3. He is borderline.

Yeah, except Schaaf had faced Baer and Paret had faced Fullmer in the fights they had before their deaths, and both had suffered head injuries. And poor Luther had been thrown by a horse in the days before his fight with Pelkey. There was never any indication that Bull Young went into the ring with a preexisting head injury against Willard.

People always dismiss Jess because he was so badly beaten by Dempsey, and by Johnson's false claim that he threw the fight. But, if you read contemporary accounts about Jess, you will find that Willard was respected as a puncher. I seem to remember Dempsey even saying that Willard hit him in the second or third round with an uppercut that shook him. And that was after Jess had already had the crap beaten out of him in the first round.

[Ambling Alp]

I don't mean to dismiss him. Actually, his ko of Floyd Johnson at his age and layoff was pretty impressive. We are only comparing world champions, so the competition is difficult. Willard borderline Tier 3 or Tier 4. On the other hand, Ali clearly is Tier 3. He certainly had more power than tier 4 guys like Ellis or Spinks. He was in the same league as Tier 3 guys-Burns,Johnson, Holmes etc. slightly more power than some at this tier, slightly less than others.

With a tier system, you are going to have some close calls; Walcott was another hard case. I put him in tier 2; but he had less power than anyone else in Tier 2. On the other hand, he had more power than anyone in Tier 3.