BoxRec

DetroitHxC wrote:

marcianofan wrote:

DetroitHxC wrote: Fair enough, but I think the combo he landed on Stanley Ketchel would have knocked out anyone.

Maybe, but it's hard to know since Ketchel was a fairly small light heavyweight even by the standards of the time. It would be like prime Mike Tyson (or Joe Frazier if you want to make the weights a little closer) knocking out Joe Calzaghe in a flashy way. Not really enough of a surprise involved to give too much credit for it. Actually Ketchel was probably closer to Sergio Martinez' size when you consider re-hydration.

I understand that, but the man's teeth were lodged in his glove, I don't think size had much to do with that knockout.

marcianofan wrote:Obviously a lot of room for debate when you've got cruisers and even super middleweights topping the division at various points in its history, as well as a lot of guys who fought an old-school style and under old-school rules that are very different from today's incarnation. Here's my impression fighter by fighter. And this is totally off the top of my head, with little or no new research involved:

John L. Sullivan- 2 (hard to say how good his opponents were in general and he failed to stop all of the accomplished ones)
Jim Corbett- 1
Bob Fitzsimmons- 4
Jim Jeffries- 7
Marvin Hart- 1 (never stopped any body good over 175 lbs, and even Root was a late stoppage)
Tommy Burns- 1
Jack Johnson- 7
Jess Willard- 5 (a fair number of stoppages against decent opposition, but many were of the relatively late-round variety)
Jack Dempsey- 10
Gene Tunney- 3 (not as bad at stopping opponents as I thought, but probably due to skill more than raw power)
Max Schmeling- 4 (seems to have added power as his career went on but Louis KO aside, he wasn't an ATG puncher)
Jack Sharkey- 3 (lots of decisions, but a few early KOs against quality fighters, too)
Primo Carnera- 5
Max Baer- 5 (not really that devastating a knockout record against top opposition)
Jim Braddock- 1
Joe Louis- 10
Ezzard Charles- 3 (at heavyweight, mind you)
Joe Walcott- 3 (went on a tear of knockouts for his title win and right before, but mostly won decisions over the course of his career against high-level opposition)
Rocky Marciano- 10
Floyd Patterson- 6 (power probably underrated due to how easily Liston walked over him- lots of mid-round stoppages of good fighters in prime)
Ingemar Johansson- 8
Sonny Liston- 10
Muhammad Ali- 4 (rarely flashed 1-punch power, due in part to his style)
Joe Frazier- 10 (I kinda feel like his one-punch power may be a little overrated, but I can't bring myself to give him a 9)
George Foreman- 10
Leon Spinks- 2 (best guy he ever stopped was Bernardo Mercado)
Larry Holmes- 4 (decent number of stoppages, but mostly late and on accumulation)
Michael Spinks- 3 (hard to quantify. He stopped two solid fighters, but failed to stop the two very good fighters he fought in his relatively short heavyweight career).
Mike Tyson- 10
Buster Douglas- 3 (Tyson was his only KO against top-10 opposition)
Evander Holyfield- 8
Riddick Bowe- 10
Michael Moorer- 2 (never knocked out a clear top 10 opponent)
Shannon Briggs ( )- 2 (probably too big not to have more power than this, but the only decent opponent he stopped was Liakhovich)
Lennox Lewis- 9 (very underrated puncher. Got lots of leverage and flattened all the big names he fought except Holyfield and Tua, who had all-time great chins)
Hasim Rahman- 3 (gets some credit for icing Lewis, but had Lewis' momentum helping him and his overall KO record isn't that great)
Vitali Klitschko- 9
Wladimir Klitschko- 9 (both he and his brother are giant guys with telephone-pole right hands and really good KO percentages)

marcianofan wrote:

DetroitHxC wrote:

marcianofan wrote: Maybe, but it's hard to know since Ketchel was a fairly small light heavyweight even by the standards of the time. It would be like prime Mike Tyson (or Joe Frazier if you want to make the weights a little closer) knocking out Joe Calzaghe in a flashy way. Not really enough of a surprise involved to give too much credit for it. Actually Ketchel was probably closer to Sergio Martinez' size when you consider re-hydration.

I understand that, but the man's teeth were lodged in his glove, I don't think size had much to do with that knockout.

Maybe Ketchel had the gum disease known as GINGIVITIS!!!!

Just kidding...I take your point. Though I do wonder a) why the hell Ketchel had his mouth open in such a way that his teeth were that exposed and b) how often we'd see similar things today if mouth pieces weren't worn. You've also got to keep in mind that the gloves they were wearing (correction welcome) were probably 5 oz. and harder than today's gloves. In truth that probably reflects negatively on the power of all the guys from that era. What the fighters are doing today, they're doing with relatively soft leather 10 oz gloves.

dempseyfire wrote:
To the contrary, smaller, cruder gloves leaves less protection for the hands and thus generally lower KO percentages in that era.

As for the size of the gloves, they varied by jursdiction but in the 19teens were generally 4-6 ounces.

DetroitHxC wrote:

Ezzard wrote:The teeth weren’t in the glove.

Watch the video, you can clearly see Johnson knocking the teeth off from being stuck in the glove.

marcianofan wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:
To the contrary, smaller, cruder gloves leaves less protection for the hands and thus generally lower KO percentages in that era.

As for the size of the gloves, they varied by jursdiction but in the 19teens were generally 4-6 ounces.

That makes sense, too. I guess it's pretty similar to the argument over whether the hits are harder in rugby or american football. On one hand, ruggers take their hits sans padding, but on the other hand football players can be more reckless with the power of their hits because they've got helmets and pads.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:How did Ali get up on Willard?

Ambling Alp wrote:Ali fits right tier 3. He was not a borderline choice to go up or down. He had a respectable ko% against by far the best competition. He obviously didn't have the power of a Foreman, but you have to have some power to stop Liston, Bonavena,Frazier, and Foreman.
Likewise Holmes had similar power and stopped several fighters that were hard to stop.

Johnson was borderline choice. Almost made him tier 4.
Willard was also borderline and almost made tier 3. He had a solid ko %, but his competition was not as good as many of the others. Besides the 26th round ko of a way past it Johnson, he stopped Floyd Johnson. After that, there really isn't much to speak of. From what is available on film, his power seems decent but nothing special.

Jack Sharkey had hand problems and didn't have much power and was 5th tier. Same for James Braddock. They may have had better power if it wasn't for that but those are the breaks. Neither were close to Ali, Holmes, or Johnson.

Ambling Alp wrote:Well, killing a man does not always have a lot to do with power. Schaaf died against Carnera. Paret vs Griffith. McCarty died in the ring and it was probably not becasue his opponet had power.

I always count a fighters, losses,draws, no-decisons etc. in a Ko %. The fighter % should go down if he doesn't ko his opponent. But yes, I have no problem bumping Willard up to Tier 3. He is borderline.

Ambling Alp wrote:Well, killing a man does not always have a lot to do with power. Schaaf died against Carnera. Paret vs Griffith. McCarty died in the ring and it was probably not becasue his opponet had power.

I always count a fighters, losses,draws, no-decisons etc. in a Ko %. The fighter % should go down if he doesn't ko his opponent. But yes, I have no problem bumping Willard up to Tier 3. He is borderline.