BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Lewis, though, if his jaw wasnt glass, it was at least close. As I said, Mercer isnt this puncher hes often made out to be, and Briggs hurt him BAD. I could be wrong, but I think Bruno had him in trouble too, didnt he? Lewis' chin was clearly suspect.

I don't think Lennox Lewis had a glass chin, or even a bad chin. He fought and beat some of the biggest punchers in recent years without hitting the deck, Tyson, Tua, Morrison, Bruno, Mason, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, Briggs and Klitschko to name a few.

Mercer was a very solid puncher as was Bruno and Briggs. Any fighter clocked flush on the chin by these guys would know about it.

Without making too many excuses there's no doubt LL was under prepared against Rahman. He was filming his cameo in Oceans 11 and went to South Africa at the last moment to fight at altitude, at a career heaviest weight. He arrived two weeks before the fight, you normally take about 6 weeks to acclimatise to high altitude conditions, something Rahman did.
Bad error of judgement of LL part and he destroyed Rahman in the rematch.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
Lewis, though, if his jaw wasnt glass, it was at least close. As I said, Mercer isnt this puncher hes often made out to be, and Briggs hurt him BAD. I could be wrong, but I think Bruno had him in trouble too, didnt he? Lewis' chin was clearly suspect.

I don't think Lennox Lewis had a glass chin, or even a bad chin. He fought and beat some of the biggest punchers in recent years without hitting the deck, Tyson, Tua, Morrison, Bruno, Mason, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, Briggs and Klitschko to name a few.

Mercer was a very solid puncher as was Bruno and Briggs. Any fighter clocked flush on the chin by these guys would know about it.

Without making too many excuses there's no doubt LL was under prepared against Rahman. He was filming his cameo in Oceans 11 and went to South Africa at the last knockings to fight at high altitude, at a career heaviest weight. He was blowing hard after a few rounds. Bad error of judgement of LL part and he destroyed Rahman in the rematch.

I have to protest some of that.

Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, and Tua? All big shooters, but when was the last time you watched those bouts? Lewis was never clobbered by any of them. I cant see how those fights could possibly acquit Lewis' jaw. Klitschko landed a lot, but Im gonna call it like I see it --- he cant punch for sh!t.

Mercer (punching dramatically upward, mind), Bruno and Briggs werent lightweights, but cmon, they never hurt any world-class guys so quickly as they did Lewis.

The Rahman fight? Everything you said rings true, but chins cant be under-prepared. Your points explain why Lewis was caught...they dont really justify a one-shot KO to a guy with good (not great, ala McCall) power who never scored a one-punch knockout over anyone else in his life (let alone anyone credible).

dr_devious wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

dr_devious wrote:Tommy Hearns springs to mind

Get him out of there

Hearn's chin was his weak point Saad, B- at best. The rest of his game was A++

Really? I had no idea. The weakness of his chin is greatly exaggerated.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
I have to protest some of that.

Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, and Tua? All big shooters, but when was the last time you watched those bouts? Lewis was never clobbered by any of them. I cant see how those fights could possibly acquit Lewis' jaw. Klitschko landed a lot, but Im gonna call it like I see it --- he cant punch for sh!t.

Mercer (punching dramatically upward, mind), Bruno and Briggs werent lightweights, but cmon, they never hurt any world-class guys so quickly as they did Lewis.

The Rahman fight? Everything you said rings true, but chins cant be under-prepared. Your points explain why Lewis was caught...they dont really justify a one-shot KO to a guy with good (not great, ala McCall) power who never scored a one-punch knockout over anyone else in his life (let alone anyone credible).

Theres a big difference with being chinny and being hurt though. Briggs caught LL with some big shots but didn't come close to stopping him, neither did Bruno or Mercer. Any HW caught flush by 16+ stone heavy hitting fighter is going to be hurt, the point was he didn't crumble like you would expect a chinny fighter to do. Lots of great fighters have been dropped, hurt, stopped or flattened in their time and you wouldn't call them all chinny, so can't see why Lewis gets labelled like that. LL was no George Chuvalo but chinny he wasn't.

If you go through any fighters career you can pick out instances where they were staggered, dropped or hurt, LL certainly isn't alone there.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
I have to protest some of that.

Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, and Tua? All big shooters, but when was the last time you watched those bouts? Lewis was never clobbered by any of them. I cant see how those fights could possibly acquit Lewis' jaw. Klitschko landed a lot, but Im gonna call it like I see it --- he cant punch for sh!t.

Mercer (punching dramatically upward, mind), Bruno and Briggs werent lightweights, but cmon, they never hurt any world-class guys so quickly as they did Lewis.

The Rahman fight? Everything you said rings true, but chins cant be under-prepared. Your points explain why Lewis was caught...they dont really justify a one-shot KO to a guy with good (not great, ala McCall) power who never scored a one-punch knockout over anyone else in his life (let alone anyone credible).

Theres a big difference with being chinny and being hurt though. Briggs caught LL with some big shots but didn't come close to stopping him, neither did Bruno or Mercer. Any HW caught flush by 16+ stone heavy hitting fighter is going to be hurt, the point was he didn't crumble like you would expect a chinny fighter to do. Lots of great fighters have been dropped, hurt, stopped or flattened in their time and you wouldn't call them all chinny, so can't see why Lewis gets labelled like that. LL was no George Chuvalo but chinny he wasn't.

If you go through any fighters career you can pick out instances where they were staggered, dropped or hurt, LL certainly isn't alone there.

Lewis was sturdier than he gets credit for. His chin was a weakness, but far from glass. Duane Bobick had a glass chin, I don't think any great fighters did. With the possible exception of Terry Norris.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:
I have to protest some of that.

Tyson, Morrison, Ruddock, Weaver, Grant, and Tua? All big shooters, but when was the last time you watched those bouts? Lewis was never clobbered by any of them. I cant see how those fights could possibly acquit Lewis' jaw. Klitschko landed a lot, but Im gonna call it like I see it --- he cant punch for sh!t.

Mercer (punching dramatically upward, mind), Bruno and Briggs werent lightweights, but cmon, they never hurt any world-class guys so quickly as they did Lewis.

The Rahman fight? Everything you said rings true, but chins cant be under-prepared. Your points explain why Lewis was caught...they dont really justify a one-shot KO to a guy with good (not great, ala McCall) power who never scored a one-punch knockout over anyone else in his life (let alone anyone credible).

Theres a big difference with being chinny and being hurt though. Briggs caught LL with some big shots but didn't come close to stopping him, neither did Bruno or Mercer. Any HW caught flush by 16+ stone heavy hitting fighter is going to be hurt, the point was he didn't crumble like you would expect a chinny fighter to do. Lots of great fighters have been dropped, hurt, stopped or flattened in their time and you wouldn't call them all chinny, so can't see why Lewis gets labelled like that. LL was no George Chuvalo but chinny he wasn't.

If you go through any fighters career you can pick out instances where they were staggered, dropped or hurt, LL certainly isn't alone there.

He was hurt very quickly and dramatically, or one-shot iced, by guys who simply couldnt do that to any other top-flight opposition (Briggs, Bruno, McCall, Rahman). When was the last time you saw him against some of the bigger hitters you mentioned? Tyson, Tua, Grant and Ruddock barely landed a punch between them!

Again, Im not arguing Lewis' chin was crystal, but average or better whiskers dont get cracked in one punch by a McCall or Rahman. They dont get jelly-legged at a brief Briggs salvo.

Just look at the way Lewis usually fought post-McCall (and especially once Steward entered the picture). If that isnt an example of a boxer afraid of being hit, I dont know what is. Lewis' style hinted he'd likely agree with me in this debate, were he being honest.

Goodnight, Irene wrote: He was hurt very quickly and dramatically, or one-shot iced, by guys who simply couldnt do that to any other top-flight opposition (Briggs, Bruno, McCall, Rahman). When was the last time you saw him against some of the bigger hitters you mentioned? Tyson, Tua, Grant and Ruddock barely landed a punch between them!

Again, Im not arguing Lewis' chin was crystal, but average or better whiskers dont get cracked in one punch by a McCall or Rahman. They dont get jelly-legged at a brief Briggs salvo.

Just look at the way Lewis usually fought post-McCall (and especially once Steward entered the picture). If that isnt an example of a boxer afraid of being hit, I dont know what is. Lewis' style hinted he'd likely agree with me in this debate, were he being honest.

He may have been hurt but he wasn't dropped or beat by Mercer, Briggs or Bruno. If you remember Bruno badly hurt Tyson with a left hook in their first fight and wobbled Tyson. Bruno could punch, 38 kos in 40 wins a testament to that. Briggs didn't have him jelly legged either, he cought him with some big shots but LL wasn't in any real trouble.

I'm not sure how you are remembering some of the fights, the below youtube clip shows LL taking some big punches off several fighters, inclusion Tyson.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIRShCBKwng

Briggs didnt have him jelly-legged!? What would you call it? Lewis was dancing like a puppet.

He wasnt knocked down or beaten by some of those guys? What does that prove? Patterson's chin wasnt suspect because he didnt lose to Rademacher?

Youtube clips dont mean much next to watching the bouts in full, and in full, theres hardly a punch landed by some of these big hitters, and virtually NEVER are hard shots landed back-to-back.

Lewis' two biggest drawbacks were his chin and heart. Not one other HW top-10er (I have him at #8) would go in ONE PUNCH from a McCall or Rahman.

And Bruno never knocked out a good, much less great, fighter in his life. He hurt Lewis with surprising ease.

Dave 'Boy' McAuley decent (not great) flyweight champ had an up and down career literally.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Briggs didnt have him jelly-legged!? What would you call it? Lewis was dancing like a puppet.

He wasnt knocked down or beaten by some of those guys? What does that prove? Patterson's chin wasnt suspect because he didnt lose to Rademacher?

Youtube clips dont mean much next to watching the bouts in full, and in full, theres hardly a punch landed by some of these big hitters, and virtually NEVER are hard shots landed back-to-back.

Lewis' two biggest drawbacks were his chin and heart. Not one other HW top-10er (I have him at #8) would go in ONE PUNCH from a McCall or Rahman.

And Bruno never knocked out a good, much less great, fighter in his life. He hurt Lewis with surprising ease.

We will have to agree to disagree. Jelly legged he wasn't, he got caught and fell back against the ropes, he wasn't on shaky legs at all. Briggs is a big guy and a big puncher. You criteria for judging punchers seems to be based upon who they have knocked out. There are plenty of tremendous punchers who have never beaten a top 10 fighter in their careers, doesn't mean they cannot punch. Bruno hit harder than many other HW world champions, as does Briggs.

Bruno was a massive pucher IMO he would of hurt any heavyweight in history with his power

I don't recall him hurting Bonecrusher Smith. He got Tyson's attention, but he didn't hurt him and he didn't hurt Witherspoon either. I would agree he could punch, but I think Bruno is an overrated puncher who gets underrated as a boxer and could take a better punch than credited with. His biggest drawback was putrid stamina.

I don't recall Tyson hurting Bonecrusher either? and he was one of the most devastating punchers in history. True, Bruno's stamina was a bit to be desired but he was still a great puncher.

What does Tyson have to do with it? That would be a nice example if someone said Tyson would hurt any Heavyweight in history, but nobody did. And Mike didn't land nearly as clean as Bruno did anyway.

Lewis's chin compared to other HW champs (and I'm talking legit champs) was weak, but it was definitely better than average.

Wlad Klitschko, Duane Bobick, or Bruce Seldon are guys with legitimate glass chins. One clean shot from a decent puncher and their legs started going out from underneath them. Not calling them great fighters in this thread, but using them as examples of truly GLASS jaws.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

DetroitHxC wrote: Dempsey was down nine times in the first round against a bum-level fighter, and several times against other people.

I actually posted that in jest, for all the people on here that seem to think Dempsey is seated at the right-hand of God right now. I would never say he had a bad chin, but he didn't have a great one either.

Dempsey is not seated at the right hand of God . . . Marciano is.

Man, that wouldve made for one mean fight.

Dempsey does almost everything better and Id clearly favour him, but the style clash enhances Marciano's chances, and his right hand is another potential equaliser.

According to Murray Woroner's computer back in 1967 (or was it 1968?), Marciano would kayo Dempsey in the 13th round. Dempsey would have been floored 6 times, Marciano none.

Technology sucks

I did not know that, though. Thanks.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I don't recall him hurting Bonecrusher Smith. He got Tyson's attention, but he didn't hurt him and he didn't hurt Witherspoon either. I would agree he could punch, but I think Bruno is an overrated puncher who gets underrated as a boxer and could take a better punch than credited with. His biggest drawback was putrid stamina.

Tyson was quoted as saying the hardest single punch he was ever hit with was thrown by Bruno. Why do you think his punch is overrated?

Fighters say sh!t like that all the time.

One look at Tyson's reaction to Lewis' straight right, or Douglas' uppercut, contradict his words.

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I don't recall him hurting Bonecrusher Smith. He got Tyson's attention, but he didn't hurt him and he didn't hurt Witherspoon either. I would agree he could punch, but I think Bruno is an overrated puncher who gets underrated as a boxer and could take a better punch than credited with. His biggest drawback was putrid stamina.

Tyson was quoted as saying the hardest single punch he was ever hit with was thrown by Bruno. Why do you think his punch is overrated?

I take what fighters say with a grain of sand. Of course he is going to say a punch that he came right back from was harder than one that knocked him out. Pacquiao once said that barrera was his toughest opponent after Morales & Marquez.

Why is he overrated? Earlier I read that he would hurt any heavyweight in history if he hit them, it doesn't get more overrated than that. I, like Irene, would expect evidence of him at least flooring one of the iron chinned fighters he faced if I'm going to put him on a list of histories biggest punchers. Isn't his biggest KO win over an aging Gerrie Coetzee?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Why is he overrated? Earlier I read that he would hurt any heavyweight in history if he hit them, it doesn't get more overrated than that. I, like Irene, would expect evidence of him at least flooring one of the iron chinned fighters he faced if I'm going to put him on a list of histories biggest punchers. Isn't his biggest KO win over an aging Gerrie Coetzee?

No one said Bruno was the greatest puncher ever, or should even on a top 10 list, but he could still dig. Bert Cooper didn't stop anyone of note, is his power overrated as well? Plenty of examples of big punchers that didn't beat big names.

I have no doubt that a flush right hand from Bruno would trouble any fighter. The problem with Bruno was he was slow and stiff, doesn't mean he couldn't punch.

PS. Actually Coetzee had just turned 31, hardly ageing.

It was I who said Vitali cant punch for sh!t, and I stand by it.

His KO ratio is MEANINGLESS once you analyse his fights and career.

A more textbook case of misleading statistics, you could not find.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It was I who said Vitali cant punch for sh!t, and I stand by it.

His KO ratio is MEANINGLESS once you analyse his fights and career.

A more textbook case of misleading statistics, you could not find.

Apologies to SaadOffTheDeck in that case, I was going by memory. That argument could apply to almost anyone then. If you analyse Tysons career the biggest KO scalps on his resume were Holmes, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs and Spinks, certainly arguments can be made about either their age, size, condition or overall ranking in HW history.

The same could be said about Klitsckos opponents. To say Vitali cannot punch is stretching the argument a bit far don't you think?

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Why is he overrated? Earlier I read that he would hurt any heavyweight in history if he hit them, it doesn't get more overrated than that. I, like Irene, would expect evidence of him at least flooring one of the iron chinned fighters he faced if I'm going to put him on a list of histories biggest punchers. Isn't his biggest KO win over an aging Gerrie Coetzee?

No one said Bruno was the greatest puncher ever, or should even on a top 10 list, but he could still dig. Bert Cooper didn't stop anyone of note, is his power overrated as well? Plenty of examples of big punchers that didn't beat big names.

I have no doubt that a flush right hand from Bruno would trouble any fighter. The problem with Bruno was he was slow and stiff, doesn't mean he couldn't punch.

PS. Actually Coetzee had just turned 31, hardly ageing.

FlatnoseFlynn said he would hurt anyone in history with his power, I cited examples that prove that to be false. That was the extent of my involvement in this conversation until you asked me why I find his power to be overrated. Overrated doesn't mean minimal.

Bert Cooper, who nobody rates anywhere near Bruno as a puncher, scored a knock down over Holyfield. So in every way that is a poor example unless you're trying to prove my point for me.

P.S. So a fighters actual age is the gauge for where they are in their career? The fact is, Coeztee never had another meaningful moment in a prize ring. If you're caught up on his age, fair enough, he was shot. And he never had more than an average chin to begin with.

Controversial wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:It was I who said Vitali cant punch for sh!t, and I stand by it.

His KO ratio is MEANINGLESS once you analyse his fights and career.

A more textbook case of misleading statistics, you could not find.

Apologies to SaadOffTheDeck in that case, I was going by memory. That argument could apply to almost anyone then. If you analyse Tysons career the biggest KO scalps on his resume were Holmes, Berbick, Thomas, Tubbs and Spinks, certainly arguments can be made about either their age, size, condition or overall ranking in HW history.

The same could be said about Klitsckos opponents. To say Vitali cannot punch is stretching the argument a bit far don't you think?

No need to apologize. I think Vitali is the most overrated puncher in history. I believe Irene is exaggerating for affect. But not nearly as much as the gazillion posters who thinks one swat of his mighty fist disintegrates anything it lands on. Bruno definitely hits harder than him, but when it came to anything resembling elite competition Frank's "massive" power fell short. Holmes, Berbick, Thomas & Tubbs were all excellent examples of Mike's truly massive power. The age, and more importantly the inactivity and conditioning Holmes factor into where that win ranks but it doesn't diminish that Larry always had a great chin.