Nasty you do talk such utter crap it is staggering.
By the way people this is the same guy who claims that Mesi would KO Lewis in 1 round and Vitali in 2 rounds.
He has predicted on BA that Tyson will dominate 2004 and that the second best heavy on the planet is Mesi.
So Lewis ducked Bowe.... erm yeah of course he did. Lets see Lewis is WBC number 1 ranked opponent. The WBC make him Bowes mandatory, so Bowe publicly puts the belt in the bin. Lewis becomes champ.
Lewis stated he wanted to fight for the WBC belt, he had KO'd Bowe to win Olympic Gold, and Bowe threw away the title. How did Lewis duck him again?
Thats some clever ducking, make the champ bin a title.
Nasty tell me again what does 2004 hold for Mesi and Tyson? I need a laugh.
As for Maloney......a bitter little man who will now stop at nothing to try and undermine Lewis. I remember Maloney after Scott Harrison beat McCullogh. He said:
"In the form he is in now, Scott would stop Lennox Lewis. I am not joking, this is serious, people may think I am just saying this, but I truly feel Scott could beat Lennox".
Before Tyson and Lewis fought, he said "Lennox has always been scared of Tyson and he is now. I truly hope Lennox can win, but I'm afraid Tyson has too much, Tyson to win by KO."
Yes I remember Maloney wittering on about how Lewis' legs had gone, how he was going to get stopped early....
Then in about the 4th round, when it was clear that Lewis was going to paste
Nasty, how can you preach to anyone about knowing shit about heavyweights, when you think that china-chinned Mesi, who barely scraped past Monte Barrett
Lest we forget, Lewis faced a lot of guys Tyson never went near, Tua, Rahman, Morrison, Mercer.....Bowe ducked Lewis, plain and simple, and if you believe Frank Maloney's versio of events and cannot see that Maloney is just bitter than he got squeezed out, then you are pretty blind.
Tyson has had 1 round of 'competitive' boxing since getting beaten up like a schoolgirl by Lewis, has hardly been near a gym, and hasn't beaten a decent fighter in 10 years, and yet the great oracle of boxing Nasty had the cheek to tell other people they know nothing, and how we have to trust his judgement.
Nasty, what makes you think you have some kind of amazing inside knowledge, just because you read Frank Maloney's book you are an expert on every dealing of Lewis' career.
For the record, on longevity of reign and title defences alone, Lewis has to make my top 5. You can argue all you want about whether or not this or that fighter would have beaten Lewis, but the fact is, only two people did, McCall (when Lewis was at his peak physically but not skills wise), and Rahman when he got lazy, and he beat both of them in a return match.
Sure Tyson and Holyfield were old when he faced them, but Tyson was a year younger than Lewis. You have to see that part of Lewis' greatness was his ability to prolong his career as he did. Few heavyweights managed as many successful defences as Lewis. Only Louis, Holmes and Ali have more defences.
His wins over Golota, Ruddock, Morrison, Tua, Grant and Briggs showed me that there were few heavyweights who could have taken on Lewis and beaten him more often than not. Foreman, not sure, would he have been intimidated looking up at such a huge man? Quite possibly, look at how liston's menace evaporated against Ali...
Ali would have danced Lewis silly, and thrown way too many shots, Lewis would have been stopped inside the distance. Holmes' jab and his great chin, not to mention his excellent workrate would have been too much too. Holy in his peak, maybe, and Bowe, I always felt was the guy with the right tools to beat Lewis, except the mental will to face him.
Aside from that, maybe liston, and just possibly Louis could have gotten inside that jab, but I'm dountful.
Nasty, I suggest you apply your withering critique of Lewis to your bum-chum Tyson too. Who the hell did Tyson ever beat who was a great heavyweight, oh yeah, an ancient Larry Holmes, who had been inactive for 2 years, whoops silly me, an ageing Trevor Berbick, or perhaps Bonehugger Smith, no, maybe Frank Bruno, or Holyfield, oh but I forgot, holyfield kicked his ass, just like Lewis did. Tyson beat nobody who was near their peak except a terrified Michael Spinks.
Anyone who thinks Lewis wasn't a great champ, and has Tyson rated higher is quite blind to the facts. Tyson may have been a more exciting fighter at his peak, but a greater champion, no way, if you think McCall and Rahman were bums, what the fornicate was Douglas, a future hall of famer?
Holyfield was patchy at heavyweight, he won some big, but he also lost to Moorer, struggled with an aged Holmes and Foreman.
You are foolish to believe anything that comes from greedy Frank Baloney. Lewis made him a shitload of money and after 10 years walked away, which was his right.
Baloney was gutted and thinks Lewis owed him, which is bollocks.
Bowe would never have fought Lewis. He beat him at the '88 Olympics and would have beat him up again. The best he could do was make derogatory remarks against Lewis because he wasn't living his life in the tabloids.
Rock Newman ripped him off and he has even admitted it was a huge mistake throwing away the WBC belt.
Lewis was unfortunate in one way because the fighters of his era don't match those of the past, but he beat everyone that was put in front of him so thats all you can ask.
In my book he goes down as a great champion and a true ambassador of the sport.
Thank God for lewis. After Tyson burnt out, what would we have been left with?
Bowe self destructing....then Gollota, Tua, Grant and a few other overweight & overrated bufoons?
Lewis dominated like Holmes did a decade ago. The man got flattened a few times yes, but he gave us some real heavyweight excitement over the years. No ducking other fighters, and straight back in there when he lost. Just what you'd expect from a real champion.
The same people who say Lewis sucks because he got knocked out by 2 journeyman, are the same people who say Wlad is amazing, even though HE also got knocked out by 2 EVEN WORSE journeyman........please explain.
As for the original questions bennie asked:
Would he have beaten Bowe in the early 90's?
Yes; rather easily I might add. The Bowe fight didn't happen because Bowe was scared shitless of getting his ass kicked again.
Would he have beaten the Tyson who beat Bruno for the second time?
Yes. The 96' version of Tyson wasn't quite as bad as the 02' version, but close. You would have to get the Tyson of 86' in the ring to even have a halfway competative fight.
Why didn't he really make a statement in the second fight with Holyfield?
Because Holyfield did a Hell of a number on him (one of many reasons why I can't rank LL high on my top 10 list; but he makes it on the bottom)
And one final question:
Many people continue to say how fantastic Vitali is. They say that Lewis sucks for having trouble with a totally shot Holyfield....and yet, Vitali couldn't get past a totally shot Lewis. Doing that math, that gives Vitali a double shot. I still think he is a good fighter; but why do people praise him and bash Lewis?
knockout artist wrote:During what has to be the worst era in the history of the Heavyweight division, Lennox Lewis managed to get knocked out by journeymen, twice, yes twice. And those were journeymen in the worst era of the divisions history.
One of the best of his time? Yes.
One of the best of all time? Gimme a break!
I echo the sentiment of this post. lewis is in the top 2 of the last 10 years, but of all time, he would fail to reach my top 10.
You know I think a lot of people don't actually know what they are talking about with these Heavyweight all-time top 10 lists which is why I don't really get involved.
The reason I say 'don't know what they are talking about' is that most of us I would guess have seen almost every single one of Lennox Lewis's fights because they have been broadcast on UK tv in some shape or form.
So all his faults, the lethargic moments (rounds even), all there in glorious technicolour. I doubt many of us have seen anywhere near the footage of the fighters you all rank above Lewis like Louis, Marciano, Johnson e.t.c, hell I bet many of you have only seen a handful of Ali fights in their entirity. So many of you are ranking what are effectively mythical figures above Lennox Lewis.
If Lewis's career had taken place 30 years ago and all you saw was a highlights reel showing his best knockouts over Rahman, Ruddock, Grant, Tyson e.t.c with a bit of editing showing off his skills jabbing Tua's head off and roughing it up with Holyfield, Klitschko and Mercer a large majority of you would most probably be saying 'Oh Lewis is one of the all-time greats, much better than this Ali bloke we've got now who got beaten by Frazier and even Leon Spinks!!'.
I apologise to those of you with Joe Louis's entire fight collection on VHS, but I don't think there are that many of you out there....
Lewis emerged as the last man standing from his generation, that much is beyond debate. Wins over Tyson, Holyfield plus an Olympic final win over Bowe are evidence, you can talk about when he fought them until you are blue in the face, what you can't talk about is that he didn't beat them when they fought and it wasn't his fault he didn't meet them earlier despite the protestations of the odd nutcase.
I've seen Lewis's standing in all-time lists debated for the last 6 years on Internet forums and it's futile, it's all opinion based and most people don't give a fornicate about the other persons!
It's also probably beyond debate that Lewis would walk over any pre-Ali Heavyweight just based on his size and strength, i.e evolution. That puts him in my top 5.....
People easily forget that Marciano was getting his ears boxed off by Jersey Joe Walcott before
People also forget about Joe Louis getting outworked by Billy Conn
They also forget the Ali that fought Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn and co in his second reign. They also forget that he was getting his ears boxed off by Floyd Patterson in their second fight, before the fight was stopped on cuts that were nowhere near as severe as the ones Vitali suffered.
Tell me this, how many better and more consistent champions have there been than Lewis? Answer, very few. Dempsey spent most of his title reign chasing Estelle Morris, Marciano only had a few defences, and like Lewis his best wins were over old versions of great fighters, including light heavyweight Archie Moore. Were Ezzard Charles, Walcott and Moore any better than Holyfield was at that stage, I would say there is very little in it....
Louis, Ali, Holmes, those three for me stand head and shoulders above the rest, with Lewis next in line, because he was able to maintain his position as a dominant heavyweight for so long.
I'd like to know what criteria people here are using to judge heavyweight champions. I think a lot of people are confusing great heavyweight fighters, with great heavyweight champions.
For instance Frazier was a great fighter, but a poor champ, as he got battered by Foreman, and never regained the title, same goes for Foreman really, much better fighter on his comeback than he was originally, had he learned to box like that when he was young, he'd have been virtually unbeatable. Sonny Liston? Again, brief reign, another one wrecked by Ali.
The more you look at it, the more you realise just how weak the reigns of most of the heavyweight champions were.
Louis, great as he was, reigned in a weak era too, and fought some bums who were on a par with Mavrovic.
Lewis struggled with Holyfield, so what? Patterson
You can't argue with Joe Louis being in the top three, but can you imagine the outcry if Lewis had defended his title against someone like Tony Galento ( and got knocked down to boot ) a short, fat barman who trained on beer and cigars?!
He'd never live it down.....It'll 5 or 10 years before Lewis gets his proper recognition I think.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes that is a very relevant point.
People easily forget that Marciano was getting his ears boxed off by Jersey Joe Walcott before
People also forget about Joe Louis getting outworked by Billy Conn
They also forget the Ali that fought Jean Pierre Coopman, Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn and co in his second reign. They also forget that he was getting his ears boxed off by Floyd Patterson in their second fight, before the fight was stopped on cuts that were nowhere near as severe as the ones Vitali suffered.
Tell me this, how many better and more consistent champions have there been than Lewis? Answer, very few. Dempsey spent most of his title reign chasing Estelle Morris, Marciano only had a few defences, and like Lewis his best wins were over old versions of great fighters, including light heavyweight Archie Moore. Were Ezzard Charles, Walcott and Moore any better than Holyfield was at that stage, I would say there is very little in it....
Louis, Ali, Holmes, those three for me stand head and shoulders above the rest, with Lewis next in line, because he was able to maintain his position as a dominant heavyweight for so long.
I'd like to know what criteria people here are using to judge heavyweight champions. I think a lot of people are confusing great heavyweight fighters, with great heavyweight champions.
For instance Frazier was a great fighter, but a poor champ, as he got battered by Foreman, and never regained the title, same goes for Foreman really, much better fighter on his comeback than he was originally, had he learned to box like that when he was young, he'd have been virtually unbeatable. Sonny Liston? Again, brief reign, another one wrecked by Ali.
The more you look at it, the more you realise just how weak the reigns of most of the heavyweight champions were.
Louis, great as he was, reigned in a weak era too, and fought some bums who were on a par with Mavrovic.
Lewis struggled with Holyfield, so what? Patterson
jamesmcdonnell wrote:The more you look at it, the more you realise just how weak the reigns of most of the heavyweight champions were.
Louis, great as he was, reigned in a weak era too, and fought some bums who were on a par with Mavrovic.
Lewis struggled with Holyfield, so what? Patterson
James, that's the funny thing, maybe many of the reigns weren't weak at all, maybe we just have some warped sense of expectation? Perhaps the long reigns of great champions in lower weight divisions have something to do with it and we aren't taking into account the volatile and explosive nature of the Heavyweight division?
Also I would add as Might Warrior points out Mavrovic was far and above some of the guys Louis defended against, he was a very fit professional guy (who I also believe was very under-rated and would be doing well if he had stuck around).
Goz wrote:James, that's the funny thing, maybe many of the reigns weren't weak at all, maybe we just have some warped sense of expectation? Perhaps the long reigns of great champions in lower weight divisions have something to do with it and we aren't taking into account the volatile and explosive nature of the Heavyweight division?
But the flipside of that is that heavyweights tend to enjoy far longer careers at world-class level than lower weight divisions. It's incredibly rare you'll see a 36-year-old defending a world title in the lower weight divisions (and before everyone points to Bernard Hopkins we're all so aware of his age purely because he's the exception to the rule).
Yes Mavrovic was certainly a lot fitter than some of the fat palookas around in Louis' era, though I don't know about being a better fighter.
It is true that very few heavyweights have been able to maintain the kind of run of defences in the lower weights.
Loftgroov? what about Foreman?
He beats Frazier and Norton (impressive) then gets licked by Ali, loses again to young, retires for 10 years, comes back fights loads of bums, wins, then loses to Morrison, Holyfield, before starching Moorer, one of the weakest heavyweight champions of the era.
Foreman is a remarkable story, but a great heavyweight champion, not on your nelly. Great heavyweight, yes, great champion no. Great champions don't retire for 10 years after getting whupped twice.
The same people who say Lewis sucks because he got knocked out by 2 journeyman, are the same people who say Wlad is amazing, even though HE also got knocked out by 2 EVEN WORSE journeyman........please explain.
As for the original questions bennie asked:
Would he have beaten Bowe in the early 90's?
Yes; rather easily I might add. The Bowe fight didn't happen because Bowe was scared shitless of getting his ass kicked again.
Would he have beaten the Tyson who beat Bruno for the second time?
Yes. The 96' version of Tyson wasn't quite as bad as the 02' version, but close. You would have to get the Tyson of 86' in the ring to even have a halfway competative fight.
Why didn't he really make a statement in the second fight with Holyfield?
Because Holyfield did a Hell of a number on him (one of many reasons why I can't rank LL high on my top 10 list; but he makes it on the bottom)
And one final question:
Many people continue to say how fantastic Vitali is. They say that Lewis sucks for having trouble with a totally shot Holyfield....and yet, Vitali couldn't get past a totally shot Lewis. Doing that math, that gives Vitali a double shot. I still think he is a good fighter; but why do people praise him and bash Lewis?
Ive never said Wlad is amazing. In fact he's pretty piss poor as is most of the division.
I agree with James' earlier post concerning Tyson. One thing I do disagree with was that Spinks was terrified. I think thats being a tad disrespectful to the warrior that was Michael Spinks. Now, he wasn't terrified, quite the opposite. He was hyped up, trying to prove he was the champion - and tried to meet Tyson's fire. Ooops.
Although, I think for the years of 1986-1989 Tyson was the greatest heavyweight that ever lived, only a prime Ali comes close (against Cleverland Williams, Zara Foley). His lack of opponents do cost him a dearly in the all time rankings stakes. Its not the fault of Tyson, he faught ever decent heavyweight out there apart from Tim Witherspoon.
MightyWarrior wrote:You can't argue with Joe Louis being in the top three, but can you imagine the outcry if Lewis had defended his title against someone like Tony Galento ( and got knocked down to boot ) a short, fat barman who trained on beer and cigars?!
He'd never live it down.....It'll 5 or 10 years before Lewis gets his proper recognition I think.
Yes, but Joe Louis got up and won. Lennox has never got off the floor and won.
Besides, Galento was better than many of the guys Lewis fought, including Justin Fortune and Phil Jackson.
Lewis wasn't allowed to continue in either of those fights, not that I am saying he could have, but back when Louis fought, the champion was given every chance to retain his titles, whereas Lewis was stopped on his feet both times.
Also, Lewis didn't defend his title against Justin Fortune or Phil Jackson, and when considering a champion's worth, I only consider what they did as champion.
Oh and I guess we will have to agree to disagree, as soon as Spinks looked Tyson he started sweating bullets, and went into retreat mode as soon as Tyson hit him, he looked frightened.
There's no shame in that, most heavyweights were frightened when they got in the ring with Tyson, let alone a blown up light heavyweight with a paunch.
Yes I'd agree Spinks was like a rabbit it the headlights that night.
He clearly didn't want the fight before hand, and didn't want to be in the ring that night either.
He attacked Tyson yes, but there was an element of suicide about it - as in, let's get this over with ASAP. Julius Francis did the same thing....
Shame Spinks went out like that. Such a great champion over the years and should've put up a much better fight than he did. He just panicked, but a peak Tyson had that Liston type aura about him that very few could stand up to.
In Larry Holmes very good book, he talks of his feelings on the way to the ring to face Iron Mike. For the first time in his career, Larry actualy thought about turning round and running out the arena.
But Holmes defintely went out on his shield that night. While trying to hold off a rampaging Tyson, he throws a desperation uppercut that catches his arm on the ropes, leaving himself open to that huge left hook from Tyson.
Last edited by MightyWarrior on 10 Feb 2004, 09:16, edited 1 time in total.
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Lewis wasn't allowed to continue in either of those fights, not that I am saying he could have, but back when Louis fought, the champion was given every chance to retain his titles, whereas Lewis was stopped on his feet both times.
Also, Lewis didn't defend his title against Justin Fortune or Phil Jackson, and when considering a champion's worth, I only consider what they did as champion.
I see your point, but if we all agreed the forum would be a bit boring
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Lewis wasn't allowed to continue in either of those fights, not that I am saying he could have, but back when Louis fought, the champion was given every chance to retain his titles, whereas Lewis was stopped on his feet both times.
Also, Lewis didn't defend his title against Justin Fortune or Phil Jackson, and when considering a champion's worth, I only consider what they did as champion.
Surely nearly every champ had their defences/fights against so-called 'bums'.
If we're going to hit Lewis with fighting Fortune and Jackson we are really cluthcing at straws. And Jackson whilst not sterling opposition was perceived as something of an unknown quantity going into the fight anyway, he had only lost the once to Ruddock before meeting Lewis.
erm yeah of course he did. Lets see Lewis is WBC number 1 ranked opponent. The WBC make him Bowes mandatory, so Bowe publicly puts the belt in the bin. Lewis becomes champ.
