BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Give me a break.

LW, for me, is THE deepest weightclass EVER. Duran is a legitimate choice anywhere from 1-6, but he gets too much credit relative to 135's other best and brightest.

Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Let me ask you a question ? Can you envision Ray Robinson as a lightweight beating Roberto Duran ?
Of course you can...Well Benny Leonard who ruled the greatest array of lightweight contenders fo SEVEN unbeaten years was considered every bit as good a LW as Ray Robinson was at WW.
A master boxer and thinker, a deadly two-handed puncher, who had a great set of wheels, Leonard beat more better lightweights than Duran, such as Lew Tendler, Freddy Welsh, Johnny Kilbane,
Charley White, Ritchie Mitchell, Joe Welling, Rocky Kansas, Ted Kid Lewis, Ever Hammer etc.
They didn't call him Leonard the Magnificent, for nothing...H2H I believe the uncuffed Ike Williams
would have beaten Duran, both at 135 pounds. And how can we rule out the Old Master Joe Gans
in this LW debate ?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I could see Langford, Greb & Armstrong rated over Robinson. Anyone else gets a

This is p4p or at specific weights?

Sorry but my English is not very good looking and sometimes I might misunderstand what people are saying.

I'm asking because at Welter I rank Sugar Ray Robinson #1, but at Middleweight I rank him #4. I rank Hagler, Monzon, and Greb ahead of him. I think Hagler, Monzon, and Greb were better middleweights than Robinson.

Borinken25 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I could see Langford, Greb & Armstrong rated over Robinson. Anyone else gets a

This is p4p or at specific weights?

Sorry but my English is not very good looking and sometimes I might misunderstand what people are saying.

I'm asking because at Welter I rank Sugar Ray Robinson #1, but at Middleweight I rank him #4. I rank Hagler, Monzon, and Greb ahead of him.

All time p4p. I also have him 4th at Middle.

beaujack wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Let me ask you a question ? Can you envision Ray Robinson as a lightweight beating Roberto Duran ?
Of course you can...Well Benny Leonard who ruled the greatest array of lightweight contenders fo SEVEN unbeaten years was considered every bit as good a LW as Ray Robinson was at WW.
A master boxer and thinker, a deadly two-handed puncher, who had a great set of wheels, Leonard beat more better lightweights than Duran, such as Lew Tendler, Freddy Welsh, Johnny Kilbane,
Charley White, Ritchie Mitchell, Joe Welling, Rocky Kansas, Ted Kid Lewis, Ever Hammer etc.
They didn't call him Leonard the Magnificent, for nothing...H2H I believe the uncuffed Ike Williams
would have beaten Duran, both at 135 pounds. And how can we rule out the Old Master Joe Gans
in this LW debate ?

Gans shouldnt take it to heart. Everyone gets ruled out at LW against Duran

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Borinken25 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I could see Langford, Greb & Armstrong rated over Robinson. Anyone else gets a

This is p4p or at specific weights?

Sorry but my English is not very good looking and sometimes I might misunderstand what people are saying.

I'm asking because at Welter I rank Sugar Ray Robinson #1, but at Middleweight I rank him #4. I rank Hagler, Monzon, and Greb ahead of him.

All time p4p. I also have him 4th at Middle.

Thank you.

People do not mention De Jesus or Benitez when talking about Duran or you would feel Elmer's wrath. Moreover, if you don’t agree that Duran is the number one all-time LW, then you are either a hater or you are Puertorriqueño. Common sense should not be part of the equation. Duran is the greatest and there is nothing you could do or say about that. Fighters such as Benny Leonard, Joe Gans, Ike Williams, and many others are two to three leagues below Duran at LW.

You must all forgot that Duran KO a bull with one punch. No, No, I think it was a cow. No, No, I think it was a horse.

elmersalsa wrote:

The End wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Not even Dejesus?

De Jesus beat him ain't he?
Smoking Joe beat Ali, ain't he?
Sandy Saddler beat Pep, ain't he?

Yeah but you're the one tha said no lightweight could beat him.

HW - Ali (#1, #1)
LHW - Charles (#2, #5)
MW - Monzon (#1, #4)
WW - Robinson (#1, #1)
LW - Duran (#1, #4)
FW - Pep (#1, #3)

At light heavyweight, there are several guys at the top that are very close. Charles, Spinks, Moore, Tunney, and if you count Langford as a lightheavyweight.
Greb, Hagler, and Robinson are the only fighters that you can make a legitimate arguement at middleweight, but I would go with Monzon.
Have Duran in a three way tie with B. Leonard and Gans. Armstrong is also very close.
Saddler and Sancez are the only legitimate contenders at featherweight. After that, there is a bit of a dropoff.

You really would say Louis has no case at all over Ali?

Goodnight, Irene wrote:You really would say Louis has no case at all over Ali?

You're really surprised by that? I'd have been disappointed if he did. Then again, he appears to think there is a case for Spinks over Charles & Tunney. I'll just chalk it up to the most biased poster on this forum doing his thing.

Yeah, Spinks just doesnt have the longevity for that kind of claim.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:Yeah, Spinks just doesnt have the longevity for that kind of claim.

I think they're all good cases. Charles beating some of the best names ever . Tunney dominating possibly the best light heavyweight divisions and Spinks remaining undefeated and also dominating a great light heavyweight division.

I disagree. The number of bouts kills Spinks' case for me.

raylawpc wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Well, Esteban De Jesus beat him ain't he?

Duran like the greats Ezzard Charles, Sugar Ray Robinson and Muhammad Ali or Willie Pep for example, are fighters in my book that can't go lower than #2 in their respective all-time weight class rankings. I just don't see it other way GI

If Duran is one of your top two, who is the other one?

I got the great Joe Gans rated at #2 lightweight.
These are my top lightweight greats:
1. Roberto Duran
2. Joe Gans
3. Benny Leonard
4. Ike Williams
5. Joe Brown

beaujack wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

elmersalsa wrote: Not from 1 to 6. He is from 1 to 2. And that's about the right place we should put him. The great Roberto Duran was so dominant at lightweight that I just cannot place him lower than #2. Nobody is invincible, but I cannot see no lightweight of any era beating him.

Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Let me ask you a question ? Can you envision Ray Robinson as a lightweight beating Roberto Duran ?
Of course you can...Well Benny Leonard who ruled the greatest array of lightweight contenders fo SEVEN unbeaten years was considered every bit as good a LW as Ray Robinson was at WW.
A master boxer and thinker, a deadly two-handed puncher, who had a great set of wheels, Leonard beat more better lightweights than Duran, such as Lew Tendler, Freddy Welsh, Johnny Kilbane,
Charley White, Ritchie Mitchell, Joe Welling, Rocky Kansas, Ted Kid Lewis, Ever Hammer etc.
They didn't call him Leonard the Magnificent, for nothing...H2H I believe the uncuffed Ike Williams
would have beaten Duran, both at 135 pounds. And how can we rule out the Old Master Joe Gans
in this LW debate ?

The great Benny Leonard beat the great Roberto Duran? that is a joke?

In the history of the lightweights, in a 3-fight series, I don't see too many lightweights beating Duran. Maybe the great Carlos Ortiz or maybe the great Ike Williams at their very best would win one out of 3 fights, but not the series.

This Duran was something special. At his very best, Duran could do it all...He could roll with the punches, put you in a different angle when making you miss, great stamina, UNDERRATED SPEED OF HANDS AND FEET, power, chin, excellent body punching, you name it. He was a COMPLETE FIGHTER.

elmersalsa wrote:

beaujack wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Let me ask you a question ? Can you envision Ray Robinson as a lightweight beating Roberto Duran ?
Of course you can...Well Benny Leonard who ruled the greatest array of lightweight contenders fo SEVEN unbeaten years was considered every bit as good a LW as Ray Robinson was at WW.
A master boxer and thinker, a deadly two-handed puncher, who had a great set of wheels, Leonard beat more better lightweights than Duran, such as Lew Tendler, Freddy Welsh, Johnny Kilbane,
Charley White, Ritchie Mitchell, Joe Welling, Rocky Kansas, Ted Kid Lewis, Ever Hammer etc.
They didn't call him Leonard the Magnificent, for nothing...H2H I believe the uncuffed Ike Williams
would have beaten Duran, both at 135 pounds. And how can we rule out the Old Master Joe Gans
in this LW debate ?

The great Benny Leonard beat the great Roberto Duran? that is a joke?

In the history of the lightweights, in a 3-fight series, I don't see too many lightweights beating Duran. Maybe the great Carlos Ortiz or maybe the great Ike Williams at their very best would win one out of 3 fights, but not the series.

This Duran was something special. At his very best, Duran could do it all...He could roll with the punches, put you in a different angle when making you miss, great stamina, UNDERRATED SPEED OF HANDS AND FEET, power, chin, excellent body punching, you name it. He was a COMPLETE FIGHTER.

The Great Ray Arcel, who knew and trained both, picked Benny Leonard over Duran.

THERE IS NO BEATING DURAN!!!!!!

Errr, except for that Puerto Rican guy

Ambling Alp wrote:HW - Ali (#1, #1)
LHW - Charles (#2, #5)
MW - Monzon (#1, #4)
WW - Robinson (#1, #1)
LW - Duran (#1, #4)
FW - Pep (#1, #3)

At light heavyweight, there are several guys at the top that are very close. Charles, Spinks, Moore, Tunney, and if you count Langford as a lightheavyweight.
Greb, Hagler, and Robinson are the only fighters that you can make a legitimate arguement at middleweight, but I would go with Monzon.
Have Duran in a three way tie with B. Leonard and Gans. Armstrong is also very close.
Saddler and Sancez are the only legitimate contenders at featherweight. After that, there is a bit of a dropoff.

I know it's Ali and for whatever reason people hate him. No, I have never seen a decent case for Louis for being #1. Believe me, I am as tired of arguing about this as the anti-Ali people are. Same thing with Robinson at welterweight. he was the best; it is that simple. Sometimes I disagree with people, and can acknowledge their case as having some merit. there often close cases such as Charles, Monzon or Pep.
I use the same criteria when I judge every division whether I like some or not. Can't stand Monzon or Duran but look where I rate them.

Hope this doesn't turn into yet another anti-Ali thread, but it probably will.

Anything that doesn't mirror your biased opinion is anti-Ali. I've never come across a poster that loves a fighter as much as you love him.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:THERE IS NO BEATING DURAN!!!!!!

Errr, except for that Puerto Rican guy

Nobody beats Sugar Ray Robinson at ww, either. But a Cuban guy by the name of Kid Gavilan beat him. He just did not get the decision. Only in America.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:THERE IS NO BEATING DURAN!!!!!!

Errr, except for that Puerto Rican guy

What if the young Srr fought Duran at 135? I'm not sure but Srr had a number of fights at 135

elmersalsa wrote:

beaujack wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote: Pretty sure thats the definition of invincible...

Let me ask you a question ? Can you envision Ray Robinson as a lightweight beating Roberto Duran ?
Of course you can...Well Benny Leonard who ruled the greatest array of lightweight contenders fo SEVEN unbeaten years was considered every bit as good a LW as Ray Robinson was at WW.
A master boxer and thinker, a deadly two-handed puncher, who had a great set of wheels, Leonard beat more better lightweights than Duran, such as Lew Tendler, Freddy Welsh, Johnny Kilbane,
Charley White, Ritchie Mitchell, Joe Welling, Rocky Kansas, Ted Kid Lewis, Ever Hammer etc.
They didn't call him Leonard the Magnificent, for nothing...H2H I believe the uncuffed Ike Williams
would have beaten Duran, both at 135 pounds. And how can we rule out the Old Master Joe Gans
in this LW debate ?

The great Benny Leonard beat the great Roberto Duran? that is a joke?

In the history of the lightweights, in a 3-fight series, I don't see too many lightweights beating Duran. Maybe the great Carlos Ortiz or maybe the great Ike Williams at their very best would win one out of 3 fights, but not the series.

This Duran was something special. At his very best, Duran could do it all...He could roll with the punches, put you in a different angle when making you miss, great stamina, UNDERRATED SPEED OF HANDS AND FEET, power, chin, excellent body punching, you name it. He was a COMPLETE FIGHTER.

you know, i was struggling to connect with your points, but the capital-lettered shouting clinched it for me, I am now in total agreement, thank god your shouting meant you were able to point out to me that Duran had under-rated speed of hands and feet, that was the clincher right there.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Anything that doesn't mirror your biased opinion is anti-Ali. I've never come across a poster that loves a fighter as much as you love him.

Buzz might be a close second . . .

raylawpc wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Anything that doesn't mirror your biased opinion is anti-Ali. I've never come across a poster that loves a fighter as much as you love him.

Buzz might be a close second . . .

One of my favourite forum moments when I was arguing Lyle was stopped too soon, and that had Ali been identical trouble, theres nil chance that bout wouldve been stopped, to which Buzz replied if favouritism to Ali existed, then if anything wouldnt it be more likely Ali would be stopped even sooner, to protect him from punishment?

For me I'd rate Sugar Ray Robinson as the number one of all weight divisions... And I'd say at the lowest he'd maybe be 5. But that's a s far as it goes.