BoxRec

beaujack wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ezzard wrote:If we take Greb out of the argument then who is next in line. That's sort of more interesting because it's hard to argue witb Harry (or beaujack)...

Actually I'm interested in beaujack's #2.

Mine is Monzon.

Yes, my #2 is Monzon.

Robinson and Hagler are next in line but really, I envision Monzon as beating either.

As I place Harry Greb #1 MW because of his unlimited stamina,whirlwind offense, reigning blows from every conceivable angle, and great chin, combined with a rubbery pair of legs bouncing to and fro, Harry Greb accomplished a record as a MW, second to none...Some people say, "well we never see him on film". But we DO SEE some films of his great victims...After all we may not see a tornado, but we SEE the AFTERMATH...So with Harry Greb...
As for NO.#2 MW. H2H ,I don't see Carlos Monzon beating the MW Ray Robinson that destroyed tough Bobo Olson 3 times, Gene Fullmer,etc. I think that this Sugar Ray, even past his peak, hit much faster than the more plodding Monzon and was almost as tall...As we know speed kills and RR had handspeed to spare...Even though we see only 2 films of Stanley Ketchel [against Billy Papke in their last bout when Ketchel broke a bone, and against the great HW,Jack Johnson], Ketchel by all measures was a dynamic puncher, tough as nails, who I rate over Monzon,at their bests H2H... Based on what I see and his record, I have Freddie Steele who was almost unbeaten in ten years til he broke a breastbone against Fred Apostoli, to beat Monzon. Steele was a great boxer and a powerful two handed puncher who came from a talent rich MW era. I give a Marvin Hagler, a Tony Zale [pre WW2]
a good shot to beat Monzon...And let us not forget the tough Toy Bulldog, Mickey Walker a very good chance to beat Monzon...Walker loved the big boys...

King Carlos wrote:Monzon would've handily beaten the Robinson that fought Fullmer, Basilio, etc. No smaller man past their prime is beating Monzon.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

King Carlos wrote:Monzon would've handily beaten the Robinson that fought Fullmer, Basilio, etc. No smaller man past their prime is beating Monzon.

There was a better MW version of Robinson than that, though (still not good enough in my view, mind).

King Carlos wrote:No smaller man past their prime is beating Monzon.

dempseyfire wrote:

King Carlos wrote:No smaller man past their prime is beating Monzon.

Griffith nearly did in their rematch, and I'll rank the Robinson who KO"d Fullmer well over a 1974 Emile Griffith at middleweight . . .

King Carlos wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

King Carlos wrote:No smaller man past their prime is beating Monzon.

Griffith nearly did in their rematch, and I'll rank the Robinson who KO"d Fullmer well over a 1974 Emile Griffith at middleweight . . .

Bit of an anomaly that fight. Griffith's last top notch performance (his last hurrah, so to speak) and one of Monzon's worst defenses (understandably so, as it was right after he'd been shot and was on the mend, unless I'm much mistaken). Both at their best, early 70's Monzon against early 50's Robinson, and I'll take Monzon in a very tight one. Robinson at his Middleweight peak (unlike the version that was fighting Fullmer) would probably stand the best chance of any Middleweight of pulling it off, the way I see it. Hagler would be right behind.

beaujack wrote:

King Carlos wrote:

dempseyfire wrote: Griffith nearly did in their rematch, and I'll rank the Robinson who KO"d Fullmer well over a 1974 Emile Griffith at middleweight . . .

Bit of an anomaly that fight. Griffith's last top notch performance (his last hurrah, so to speak) and one of Monzon's worst defenses (understandably so, as it was right after he'd been shot and was on the mend, unless I'm much mistaken). Both at their best, early 70's Monzon against early 50's Robinson, and I'll take Monzon in a very tight one. Robinson at his Middleweight peak (unlike the version that was fighting Fullmer) would probably stand the best chance of any Middleweight of pulling it off, the way I see it. Hagler would be right behind.

Besides Harry Greb, there is one other MW that accomplished things that Carlos Monzon never dreamed of. Namely Mickey Walker, the Toy Bulldog. Mickey Walker is rated by the oldtimers
just behind Greb and Ketchel as the best MW of alltime and for good reason...But he was beaten by
Harry Greb who was on the way out ,but that defeat should not diminish the greatness of Mickey Walker one iota. After the way Walker flattened Britain's Tommy Milligan [seen on youtube], and beat
the underestimated Dave Shade, tough Ace Hudkins, then went after the big boys and whipped the likes of Johnny Risko, Paul Berlenbach[ LH banger champ], Johnny Risko, Paolino Uzcudun [ kod Harry Wills], Maxie Rosenbloom, King Levinsky, Bearcat Wright [230 lbs], drew with a prime Jack Sharkey,
etc. Walker though standing 5ft7" accomplished this record that a Carlos Monzon wouldn't and didn't attempt . Carlos knew better...A great, great fighter was Mickey Walker, who today is sadly forgotten,
but his record speaks for itself...

raylawpc wrote:

beaujack wrote:

King Carlos wrote:Bit of an anomaly that fight. Griffith's last top notch performance (his last hurrah, so to speak) and one of Monzon's worst defenses (understandably so, as it was right after he'd been shot and was on the mend, unless I'm much mistaken). Both at their best, early 70's Monzon against early 50's Robinson, and I'll take Monzon in a very tight one. Robinson at his Middleweight peak (unlike the version that was fighting Fullmer) would probably stand the best chance of any Middleweight of pulling it off, the way I see it. Hagler would be right behind.

Besides Harry Greb, there is one other MW that accomplished things that Carlos Monzon never dreamed of. Namely Mickey Walker, the Toy Bulldog. Mickey Walker is rated by the oldtimers
just behind Greb and Ketchel as the best MW of alltime and for good reason...But he was beaten by
Harry Greb who was on the way out ,but that defeat should not diminish the greatness of Mickey Walker one iota. After the way Walker flattened Britain's Tommy Milligan [seen on youtube], and beat
the underestimated Dave Shade, tough Ace Hudkins, then went after the big boys and whipped the likes of Johnny Risko, Paul Berlenbach[ LH banger champ], Johnny Risko, Paolino Uzcudun [ kod Harry Wills], Maxie Rosenbloom, King Levinsky, Bearcat Wright [230 lbs], drew with a prime Jack Sharkey,
etc. Walker though standing 5ft7" accomplished this record that a Carlos Monzon wouldn't and didn't attempt . Carlos knew better...A great, great fighter was Mickey Walker, who today is sadly forgotten,
but his record speaks for itself...

I'm confused . . . it appeared above we were looking at head to head, now it appears resume . . . which is it?

BoxBuzz wrote:Here is the greatest MW ever captured on a good amount of film....and here are the WORST rounds he probably ever turned in during his entire career.

What is remarkable about this isn't the trouble he was in, but what a walk in the park it appeared to be for him to regain control.

He is the consummate ring general....doesn't seem to want to use any more energy than absolutely needed at any time.

I don't care if you want to say he was as slow as molasses.....even during these rounds his accuracy is pretty uncanny.

The announcers for all their bias, are not guilty of under reporting just what an unusual moment that was for Carlos to be caught like that. Not sure Monzon was really in that much trouble, but

when you are as "under reactive" as Monzon it's probably hard to call. Maybe they recognized this and had it right. Monzon was poker faced when he had his opponent in the deepest of

trouble...so it stands to reason he could remain "non reactive" and equally poker faced when he was in deep trouble himself.

So was he slow? Or was he just efficient? Does it matter? He also avoids incoming pretty well.....Bennie Briscoe did not toss punches away very often without landing.....but you can see he's

struggling with Monzon.


I wonder if Ali was "looking at the clock" on his way to the deck? When Joe "clocked" him. lol

What presence of mind Monzon had even when in his worst boxing moment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3f8oC9d ... re=related

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Marvin Hagler was the greatest Middleweight of all time.

dempseyfire wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Here is the greatest MW ever captured on a good amount of film....and here are the WORST rounds he probably ever turned in during his entire career.

What is remarkable about this isn't the trouble he was in, but what a walk in the park it appeared to be for him to regain control.

He is the consummate ring general....doesn't seem to want to use any more energy than absolutely needed at any time.

I don't care if you want to say he was as slow as molasses.....even during these rounds his accuracy is pretty uncanny.

The announcers for all their bias, are not guilty of under reporting just what an unusual moment that was for Carlos to be caught like that. Not sure Monzon was really in that much trouble, but

when you are as "under reactive" as Monzon it's probably hard to call. Maybe they recognized this and had it right. Monzon was poker faced when he had his opponent in the deepest of

trouble...so it stands to reason he could remain "non reactive" and equally poker faced when he was in deep trouble himself.

So was he slow? Or was he just efficient? Does it matter? He also avoids incoming pretty well.....Bennie Briscoe did not toss punches away very often without landing.....but you can see he's

struggling with Monzon.


I wonder if Ali was "looking at the clock" on his way to the deck? When Joe "clocked" him. lol

What presence of mind Monzon had even when in his worst boxing moment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3f8oC9d ... re=related

FOr some reason Monzon seems to have a cult of people who believe he's the best middle ever. I've never understood these people. To them it's a point that is as clear as day and not up to much argument. They'll see footage of the above and think "there is Monzon taming the beast Bennie Briscoe, look at his coolnees under fire, his accuracy . . his mastery!!"

I see and recognize those things, but I more think "Briscoe was a very good, dangerous contender who would've been schooled even worse by a Giardello, Archer, Burley, Yarosz, Steele etc. . . and here is Monzon winning the fight but not looking particularly spectacular/great" And to his supporters, the fact he wins the fights without looking great makes him greater!!

I see a guy not looking great vs a generally weak crop of comp, who probably deserved a L vs Briscoe the first time around and nearly a L vs a washed up Griffith in their rematch, and whose best Ws were over Briscoe and a past-his best Benvenuti. As I've said before, Monzon is lucky he didn't start his career 10-15 years earlier, when the middleweight division was much deeper and more dangerous than it was in the 1970s.

dempseyfire wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Here is the greatest MW ever captured on a good amount of film....and here are the WORST rounds he probably ever turned in during his entire career.

What is remarkable about this isn't the trouble he was in, but what a walk in the park it appeared to be for him to regain control.

He is the consummate ring general....doesn't seem to want to use any more energy than absolutely needed at any time.

I don't care if you want to say he was as slow as molasses.....even during these rounds his accuracy is pretty uncanny.

The announcers for all their bias, are not guilty of under reporting just what an unusual moment that was for Carlos to be caught like that. Not sure Monzon was really in that much trouble, but

when you are as "under reactive" as Monzon it's probably hard to call. Maybe they recognized this and had it right. Monzon was poker faced when he had his opponent in the deepest of

trouble...so it stands to reason he could remain "non reactive" and equally poker faced when he was in deep trouble himself.

So was he slow? Or was he just efficient? Does it matter? He also avoids incoming pretty well.....Bennie Briscoe did not toss punches away very often without landing.....but you can see he's

struggling with Monzon.


I wonder if Ali was "looking at the clock" on his way to the deck? When Joe "clocked" him. lol

What presence of mind Monzon had even when in his worst boxing moment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3f8oC9d ... re=related

FOr some reason Monzon seems to have a cult of people who believe he's the best middle ever. I've never understood these people. To them it's a point that is as clear as day and not up to much argument. They'll see footage of the above and think "there is Monzon taming the beast Bennie Briscoe, look at his coolnees under fire, his accuracy . . his mastery!!"

I see and recognize those things, but I more think "Briscoe was a very good, dangerous contender who would've been schooled even worse by a Giardello, Archer, Burley, Yarosz, Steele etc. . . and here is Monzon winning the fight but not looking particularly spectacular/great" And to his supporters, the fact he wins the fights without looking great makes him greater!!

I see a guy not looking great vs a generally weak crop of comp, who probably deserved a L vs Briscoe the first time around and nearly a L vs a washed up Griffith in their rematch, and whose best Ws were over Briscoe and a past-his best Benvenuti. As I've said before, Monzon is lucky he didn't start his career 10-15 years earlier, when the middleweight division was much deeper and more dangerous than it was in the 1970s.

BoxBuzz wrote:Both Good points.

I never saw Monzon's respect for another fighter actually impact his performance. That's something you just might want to chew on a while.

Maybe he never had any respect. Like I said, very low humanity rating.

Did Monzon ever do deodorant commercials, and appeal for civility or consider our malodorous offense on behalf of others?

Marvin was a pretty damn good human being for my money. He even shows great affection to his Mum.

That may have placed him at a further disadvantage with Carlos.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhYaAToA_ZQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QeSGaWn7aQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U252f8R3hTg

BoxBuzz wrote:

dempseyfire wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Here is the greatest MW ever captured on a good amount of film....and here are the WORST rounds he probably ever turned in during his entire career.

What is remarkable about this isn't the trouble he was in, but what a walk in the park it appeared to be for him to regain control.

He is the consummate ring general....doesn't seem to want to use any more energy than absolutely needed at any time.

I don't care if you want to say he was as slow as molasses.....even during these rounds his accuracy is pretty uncanny.

The announcers for all their bias, are not guilty of under reporting just what an unusual moment that was for Carlos to be caught like that. Not sure Monzon was really in that much trouble, but

when you are as "under reactive" as Monzon it's probably hard to call. Maybe they recognized this and had it right. Monzon was poker faced when he had his opponent in the deepest of

trouble...so it stands to reason he could remain "non reactive" and equally poker faced when he was in deep trouble himself.

So was he slow? Or was he just efficient? Does it matter? He also avoids incoming pretty well.....Bennie Briscoe did not toss punches away very often without landing.....but you can see he's

struggling with Monzon.


I wonder if Ali was "looking at the clock" on his way to the deck? When Joe "clocked" him. lol

What presence of mind Monzon had even when in his worst boxing moment.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3f8oC9d ... re=related

FOr some reason Monzon seems to have a cult of people who believe he's the best middle ever. I've never understood these people. To them it's a point that is as clear as day and not up to much argument. They'll see footage of the above and think "there is Monzon taming the beast Bennie Briscoe, look at his coolnees under fire, his accuracy . . his mastery!!"

I see and recognize those things, but I more think "Briscoe was a very good, dangerous contender who would've been schooled even worse by a Giardello, Archer, Burley, Yarosz, Steele etc. . . and here is Monzon winning the fight but not looking particularly spectacular/great" And to his supporters, the fact he wins the fights without looking great makes him greater!!

I see a guy not looking great vs a generally weak crop of comp, who probably deserved a L vs Briscoe the first time around and nearly a L vs a washed up Griffith in their rematch, and whose best Ws were over Briscoe and a past-his best Benvenuti. As I've said before, Monzon is lucky he didn't start his career 10-15 years earlier, when the middleweight division was much deeper and more dangerous than it was in the 1970s.

I respect your empirical reviews highly.

And don't always agree with your assumptive outcomes. Usually based on the mental portion of the game.

In round 15 of Frazier Ali 1, some may see a man who was knocked down, in a late round of a fight. And got beaten.

I see a man who got back up, and restarted a career.

With Monzon, you may well see a guy who seems to squeak by a few very talented opponents.

I see a fella who fully engages and perhaps enjoys out-fighting his standing opponent. I can't over state the subtle aspect of what I mean by the "enjoyment" aspect of this. He would take the KO if it comes. But is not overly obsessed with that option.

He would beat Hagler one on one. He would out fight him. IMHO. And he would do it brilliantly. And any other MW that I have seen fight live or on film. He was a very interesting sort. And it was not all about physics. Though he would take advantage of his height. But that is not where I believe this man "stands tall" in terms of his boxing resume.

Though he very much "sinks low' regarding his humanity.

As for your estimation of his competition, I don't fully agree, but I think he would quite welcome any upgrading that might have been available to him. He certainly looked around for any and all available and competitive options.