BoxRec

Ezzard wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Loaded

Mike Spinks was never a top heavyweight. He had a great game plan to beat a portly Holmes. A man with a spare tyre around his middle. He then picked Cooney because he hadn’t been in a ring for quiet some time.

It was a great achievement by Spinks. One my faves from the 1980s. But I doubt Spinks would beat David Haye let alone Vitali/Wlad.

Mike was a better fighter, a much better fighter, but not a better heavy.

Either was Vitali Klitschko.

I’d back Vitali against any of Holmes’ challengers. I’d be worried about Witherspoon. That’s it.

I wouldnt --- but even if I did, that still doesnt refute my point.

He’s consistently beat all the others apart from his brother.

Spinks beat one (twice, just about).

If Vitali had left a collection of fighters he ducked then you might have a point. As it is…

No way David Haye beats Spinks, at any weight.

BoxBuzz wrote:The BroKlits have at least paid dues. Did Cooney ever really prove himself to be anything but a possibility? He feasted on a trio of over the hill gang members, and then got splattered like a bug against the bus windshield, by the trio of Spinks, Holmes and Foreman. I'm not sure just how much "there" was there.

He had his moments against Holmes and Foreman he didnt get "splattered like a bug" he rocked Foreman and was boxing quite neatly until Foremans power folded him, and although Holmes handled him without moving into top gear it went 13 rounds and Cooney acquitted himself reasonably against an alltime great in the prime of his life.

The Spinks loss seems bad but thats a good thread for another time....the Spinks of 1986/87 v a Klitchko! I know this much Spinks was a far better HW than Haye. The holmes of 85/86 that Spinks "beat", was in my opinion still good enough to have done with the two brothers. Holmes underestimated Spinks the first time and was robbed the second time. Spinks was no Byrd either I beleive he had more of a dig at HW and more malice in his fighting mindset.

Ok no bug splatter.....however, more to the point, he did manage to lose every big fight he entered.......and what would be considered his best win/s?

Yes he did lose all 3 of his biggest fights.

On the one hand it can be argued his management team did a great job steering him to the holmes fight and subsequent big paydays with Spinks and Foreman.....on the other it can be argued they ruined his career, sold him short, and lacked confidence in him which projected itself into Gerrys tortured psyche.

Inactitivy in particular was a big factor before all his three big fights.

I feel for his power and yes talent and skill he was sold short and in terms of what he did earn he could and should have earned a hell of a lot more.

People forget how huge Cooney was before the Holmes fight. He was projected as the real life Rocky of the time....the big affable white kid who was going to win the HW title.

To answer your question I think (altho he won on a cut) the Young win was probably his best, Young wasnt totally spent at that point i feel. Sure he had lost 3 close decisions to Norton and Occasio but he was 31 and would go on from the Cooney loss to attain 4-5 decent level wins inc Jeff Sims...so I think that was his best win altho not as spectacular as the nuclear wipeouts of Norton and Lyle.

But I feel the 1982 Cooney heck even the 1990 vintage who was boxing so well against Holmes was a far higher grade of skill than what we see in the HW division today. If even that version of Cooney was coming back today with Gil Clancy by his side and was sober and motivated and had 5-6 comeback fights id back him to beat Wladimir.

The Cooney who boxed so sweet for one round would destroy today's heavyweights. Who out there could paralyse him like Foreman did? The Klits? They can't stop or even knock down David Haye and Shannon fcukcing Briggs. Please!

Two huge towering men with rippling muscle who refuse to fight their opponents, can't knock anyone dead and engage in the longest, most dullest fights in the glorious history of the heavyweight division. They are diabolical.

Loaded...

George was a fat old man when he KO'd Cooney. I like Cooney. I too believe he gets the short end of it these days. But he was what he was...

Ezzard wrote:He’s consistently beat all the others apart from his brother.

Spinks beat one (twice, just about).

If Vitali had left a collection of fighters he ducked then you might have a point. As it is…

I have quite the point. Dont misunderstand me --- I am a huge critic of Spinks as a Heavy. However, Vitali is just terrible as a fighter as well. Hes beaten more of the top men in his day than Spinks did, but he has a huge size advantage and is a career HW --- not a LHW moving up at the tail of his career.

Then, too, Spinks did something Vitali never has, which is achieve the end-goal of boxing --- he became champion.

One final thing --- there is not one guy Vitali has beaten Spinks could not --- as pathetic as that is --- and I cannot emphasise enough how much better beating an old, fat Holmes is than ANYTHING Vitali has done in his whole, increasingly over-rated career.

For me, this is like picking between arsenic and strichnyne. Vitali, though, is actually thought of by many as quite a good HW...which I find nothing short of hysterical.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ezzard wrote:He’s consistently beat all the others apart from his brother.

Spinks beat one (twice, just about).

If Vitali had left a collection of fighters he ducked then you might have a point. As it is…

I have quite the point. Dont misunderstand me --- I am a huge critic of Spinks as a Heavy. However, Vitali is just terrible as a fighter as well. Hes beaten more of the top men in his day than Spinks did, but he has a huge size advantage and is a career HW --- not a LHW moving up at the tail of his career.

Then, too, Spinks did something Vitali never has, which is achieve the end-goal of boxing --- he became champion.

One final thing --- there is not one guy Vitali has beaten Spinks could not --- as pathetic as that is --- and I cannot emphasise enough how much better beating an old, fat Holmes is than ANYTHING Vitali has done in his whole, increasingly over-rated career.

For me, this is like picking between arsenic and strichnyne. Vitali, though, is actually thought of by many as quite a good HW...which I find nothing short of hysterical.

But at heavyweight size is an advantage.

Anyway, my issue is that if Spinks fought all of Vitali's oppoents he'd have lost a lot more fights. Herbie Hide stunned Bowe. If he lands a shot like that on Spinks it could be all over. Spinks is in a different universe to Herbie, and would start as favourite, but it could happen.

I can't even be bothered to look up the rest of Vitali's opponents. But a 40 year old Mike would have lost to Chisora. I know you get my drift...

They're both frauds at Heavy. Im happy to leave it at that.

Too harsh.

Mike was not a fraud. He just knew he didn't have a long shelf life at Heavy. He knew many lesser fighters could get lucky against him. So he didn't want to risk his big pay day. And in the end he fought Tyson.

Vitali has not ducked anyone. He's been dedicated. Always comes into the ring in shape. Doesn't denigrate the sport.

There are plenty of frauds out there in the sport. These two don't fall into that category.

Ezzard wrote:Too harsh.

Mike was not a fraud. He just knew he didn't have a long shelf life at Heavy. He knew many lesser fighters could get lucky against him. So he didn't want to risk his big pay day. And in the end he fought Tyson.

Vitali has not ducked anyone. He's been dedicated. Always comes into the ring in shape. Doesn't denigrate the sport.

There are plenty of frauds out there in the sport. These two don't fall into that category.

Spinks never fought Tyson. He laid down like a dog and I will make that contention until they lower me into the ground (the angle of him watching the ref while hes counted out, I find particularly damning --- the eyes tell all). He made a mockery of the championship by dodging top players completely, and capped it by cheating the people of their money in his last hurrah, treating the crown with no respect to boot. The, "Anti-Willard."

Klitschko does NOT disrespect the sport, thats true. In fact, Ive made the point that in many ways, Boxing is crying out for men like the brothers --- respectable human beings and upstanding citizens, which remain in bitterly short supply.

I just dont rate him as a boxer. At all. Hes nothing more than a fringe contender or worse in most eras. The guy is 41 years old and doesnt even know how to throw a punch, its laughable. I attribute his success almost exclusively to the state of the division (chin and perhaps heart are his only world-class qualities).

Wlad is the better bro any day of the week, for mine.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Too harsh.

Mike was not a fraud. He just knew he didn't have a long shelf life at Heavy. He knew many lesser fighters could get lucky against him. So he didn't want to risk his big pay day. And in the end he fought Tyson.

Vitali has not ducked anyone. He's been dedicated. Always comes into the ring in shape. Doesn't denigrate the sport.

There are plenty of frauds out there in the sport. These two don't fall into that category.

Spinks never fought Tyson. He laid down like a dog and I will make that contention until they lower me into the ground (the angle of him watching the ref while hes counted out, I find particularly damning --- the eyes tell all). He made a mockery of the championship by dodging top players completely, and capped it by cheating the people of their money in his last hurrah, treating the crown with no respect to boot. The, "Anti-Willard."

Klitschko does NOT disrespect the sport, thats true. In fact, Ive made the point that in many ways, Boxing is crying out for men like the brothers --- respectable human beings and upstanding citizens, which remain in bitterly short supply.

I just dont rate him as a boxer. At all. Hes nothing more than a fringe contender or worse in most eras. The guy is 41 years old and doesnt even know how to throw a punch, its laughable. I attribute his success almost exclusively to the state of the division (chin and perhaps heart are his only world-class qualities).

Wlad is the better bro any day of the week, for mine.

Not to get off the topic, but I tend to agree with your point of view as to Spink's effort against Tyson.

The finishing right hand by Tyson against Spinks looked like a glancing blow to me.

Sometimes you just need a character witness..... and here i am, Spinks did not lay down. No matter what the appearance to some observers.....he was paralyzed by whatever hit him. The way he just walked away from the sport, one could imagine that something happened to him in sparring.....along the lines of whatever changed Roy Jones to Glass Joe. So he decided to walk away thinking he was compromised. Just one of many possibilities.

Just know that whatever your or my imagination may conjur....Spinks laying down is not one of those many possibilities.

LOL.

i dont think spinks laid down but his apparent mental disintegration and terrified exterior just dont sit right with me or his sudden disappearence from the sport. He wasnt even tempted to come back when Tyson disappeared in eary 92.

I must be careful what I say here but perhaps hypotehtically taking a wild wild proofless swing in the dark Spinks's mental collapse was a result of knowing he had to lay down? some have said it................I give it no credence, no proof for that assertion.

I wonder what others think?

I think Spinks is an alltime great who did "beat" in an aged 85/86Holmes a fighter who would have wiped the floor with every active heavyweight alive

mugabi wrote: I think Spinks is an alltime great who did "beat" in an aged 85/86Holmes a fighter who would have wiped the floor with every active heavyweight alive

The 85 Holmes would've "wiped the floor" with every other HW besides Spinks? He'd just needed a judges's gift to beat Truth Williams in the fight preceding Spinks!!

I'm not a huge fan of the Klitschkos, but I do differ with Goodnight on this one. IMO Vitali is clearly the better fighter to his brother. He can look clumsy, but he's an excellent judge of distance, throws lots of punches, has good defensive senses when combined with his height make him hard to tag clean. Most importantly he stays cool under heavy fire and fires right back. The guy has been excelling in combat sports on the world stage for just about 20 years. He knows how to fight.
Wlad was born with the better athletic talent and the bigger punch but his response to getting hit/stunned is so amateurish, I see even a peak Trevor Berbick mowing him down (Berbick was a HELLUVA lot better than frikkin' Chisora, Brewster or Sam Peter).

I'd make Vitali a firm favorite over Spinks and Cooney.

dempseyfire wrote:

mugabi wrote: I think Spinks is an alltime great who did "beat" in an aged 85/86Holmes a fighter who would have wiped the floor with every active heavyweight alive

The 85 Holmes would've "wiped the floor" with every other HW besides Spinks? He'd just needed a judges's gift to beat Truth Williams in the fight preceding Spinks!!

I'm not a huge fan of the Klitschkos, but I do differ with Goodnight on this one. IMO Vitali is clearly the better fighter to his brother. He can look clumsy, but he's an excellent judge of distance, throws lots of punches, has good defensive senses when combined with his height make him hard to tag clean. Most importantly he stays cool under heavy fire and fires right back. The guy has been excelling in combat sports on the world stage for just about 20 years. He knows how to fight.
Wlad was born with the better athletic talent and the bigger punch but his response to getting hit/stunned is so amateurish, I see even a peak Trevor Berbick mowing him down (Berbick was a HELLUVA lot better than frikkin' Chisora, Brewster or Sam Peter).

I'd make Vitali a firm favorite over Spinks and Cooney.

Could be wrong, but I read Mugabi as meaning Holmes in 1985-86 beats every Heavy NOW.

Regarding Vitali's D, yes he sure does appear hard to hit and a great judge of distance against the most putrid crop of HWs in living memory...funny that the only top-shelf guy he ever faced landed at 50% + connect rate and shredded half his face off.

dempseyfire wrote:The 85 Holmes would've "wiped the floor" with every other HW besides Spinks? He'd just needed a judges's gift to beat Truth Williams in the fight preceding Spinks!!

Who the hell in today's division can box like Carl Williams? The man had a tremendous skillset and an awesome jab. To dismiss him shows a serious lack of knowledge, particularly in favour of today's contenders who can't master a jab, head movement, a sit up, nothing.

I cannot believe what I am reading here about Spinks. He got legitmately whacked and his eyes were in orbit. He also was swinging his own right and didn't see the one coming. To call him a fraud and say he took a dive is pure troll. Considering the level of men he mixed it up with at the Olympics, at light heavy and at heavy if he had any kind of quit in him whatsoever it would have surfaced before he ended up in the right with Mike Tyson.

Very disrespectful to a great, great fighter.

LOL.

Who at the Olympics or at LHW had Tyson's aura of intimidation?

He dove. The fear is written all over his face as hes counted out. Butch Lewis had to coax him out of his room, FFS!!!

Goodnight, Irene wrote:LOL.

Who at the Olympics or at LHW had Tyson's aura of intimidation?

He dove. The fear is written all over his face as hes counted out. Butch Lewis had to coax him out of his room, FFS!!!

Fear, what fear? He didn't know what planet he was on after the right hand. Watched the fight again just earlier and it looked exactly like it did 20+ years ago funnily enough. Get your eyes tested immediately

bollox wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:LOL.

Who at the Olympics or at LHW had Tyson's aura of intimidation?

He dove. The fear is written all over his face as hes counted out. Butch Lewis had to coax him out of his room, FFS!!!

Fear, what fear? He didn't know what planet he was on after the right hand. Watched the fight again just earlier and it looked exactly like it did 20+ years ago funnily enough. Get your eyes tested immediately

He took a beating Bruce Seldon or Cliff Etienne would be proud to call their own.

Goodnight, Irene wrote:

bollox wrote:

Goodnight, Irene wrote:LOL.

Who at the Olympics or at LHW had Tyson's aura of intimidation?

He dove. The fear is written all over his face as hes counted out. Butch Lewis had to coax him out of his room, FFS!!!

Fear, what fear? He didn't know what planet he was on after the right hand. Watched the fight again just earlier and it looked exactly like it did 20+ years ago funnily enough. Get your eyes tested immediately

He took a beating Bruce Seldon or Cliff Etienne would be proud to call their own.

Let me know what strength glasses the doc prescibes