BoxRec

That is my opinion, not anyone else's. You can disagree with it, I don't have a problem with that, however, with each follow up post, you end up looking more and more like a plank.

Well lets see, Bute was unbeaten too, rated by some in P4P rankings. People were avoiding him. Froch, coming off a defeat against the No1 in division, a defeat on away soil, showed admirable balls to take this fight. A loss would have ended his career. Not too mention Kessler fought that fight with JC, with a busted right hand. Oh and he crushed Bute impressively.

That's why I consider more impressive. Still not happy? Oh well, I can live with the disappointment.

Horse wrote:

Hagler2002 wrote:Oh I wasn't aware that we all had to bow down to your opinion on a public forum, agree, not challenge it and take it as gospel!

I'd appreciate it if you could start off by telling us how Froch's win tonight was better than Calzaghe's dominant display against Kessler.

Calzaghe wasn't dominant against Kessler.

He won a UD by 5, 4 & 4 rounds on the cards, controlled the fight from the 6th round onwards. The fight I watched was pretty dominant.

Hagler2002 wrote:He was clearly a 'fringe' level world class fighter, that's why he wasn't in Super 6 and when giving the opportunity he choose not to become involved.

No, he beat fringe world level guys to show that he was world class.

Hagler2002 wrote:Do you think really think Andrade, Bika & Miranda are on the same level as Pascal, Taylor, Dirrel, Abraham & Ward?

I think some of the first group could beat some of the second group (especially if you included Johnson in the first group), but overall they are not as good.

Calzaghe vs Kessler was pretty close, Calzaghe saw it through with some decent boxing in the later rounds but 'dominant' is not in any way what came to my mind. He was shaken badly earlier in the fight and then got on his bike and used his pitter-patter flurries to win the fight. Not saying there's anything wrong with that, but in terms of how many genuine top 10 guys Froch has faced, I'd have to say he has overtaken Calzaghe now. People make far too much of unbeaten records.

People also forget Carl went into the lion's den in Denmark to face Kessler, whereas Joe got him on his home patch in Wales. They are close and you can choose who you like I suppose, I prefer Carl.

Hagler2002 wrote:

Horse wrote:

Hagler2002 wrote:Are you joking?

No. Why did you take Johnson's name out of my quote?

Bute was clearly a proven world class fighter with the wins he had.

He was clearly a 'fringe' level world class fighter, that's why he wasn't in Super 6 and when giving the opportunity he choose not to become involved.

Do you think really think Andrade, Bika & Miranda are on the same level as Pascal, Taylor, Dirrel, Abraham & Ward?

OK now use the same rationale on Calzaghe's wins.

Eubank was shot, then years pass before his next test (Woodhall and Reid had recently lost their World titles) against Lacy whos only real wins were over Robin Reid and a load of Ameribums, Kessler's best wins before he fought Calzaghe were over Beyer, Mundine and Andrade, and Hopkins and Jones were old.

It's easy enough to slag off guys level of opposition, the fact you try and do it with Froch is so hilarious. Can you name me some better fighters at Super middleweight that he could have fought since he beat Pacal? I literally can not think of one Super middleweight who Froch could have fought to make the run of opponents he has faced better.

Now I aint saying he would beat Calzaghe and obviously Carl has losses on his record. But his record overall stands up very well against Calzaghe's despite the defeats.

Hard to compare Calzaghe and Froch's records - Froch's wins over Pascal, Dirrell, Taylor, Bute, Abraham and Johnson are better than anything on Calzaghe's record.....except for Calzaghe's wins over Hopkins and Kessler, which rank above all of Froch's wins.

Quantity or quality?

jameswilson wrote:
OK now use the same rationale on Calzaghe's wins.

Eubank was shot, then years pass before his next test (Woodhall and Reid had recently lost their World titles) against Lacy whos only real wins were over Robin Reid and a load of Ameribums, Kessler's best wins before he fought Calzaghe were over Beyer, Mundine and Andrade, and Hopkins and Jones were old.

It's easy enough to slag off guys level of opposition, the fact you try and do it with Froch is so hilarious. Can you name me some better fighters at Super middleweight that he could have fought since he beat Pacal? I literally can not think of one Super middleweight who Froch could have fought to make the run of opponents he has faced better.

Now I aint saying he would beat Calzaghe and obviously Carl has losses on his record. But his record overall stands up very well against Calzaghe's despite the defeats.

Whooah hold on, I'm not slagging Calzaghe or Froch off all I'm doing is replying to the posts that imply that Froch is a better fighter than Calzaghe or their level of opposition was miles apart.

Both are different fighters and even now if Joe came back I'd fancy him to box Carl's head off, styles make fights. Now the Super 6 is finished hopefully they match Froch well for the remainder of his career because he needs to stop away from boxers/spoilers as he will get beat against them.

Naz has not yet made the HOF (I think he should be in there without a doubt) and my list of fighters (active or having fought within last five years) due for induction are as follows:

De La Hoya
Trinidad
Mosley
Mayweather
Jones
Hopkins
Klitschko X2
Pacquiao
Morales
Marquez
Barrera
Calzaghe
Toney
Holyfield

Those on the fringes (based on what has been achieved to date) are:

Cotto
Wright
Froch
Martinez
Gatti
Wonjongkam
Kessler
Hatton

I have Gatti in there on the basis that he brought so much excitement to his fights. I think the HOF should always include the stars of the boxing world and not just the guys who were ranked at the top of the P4P lists.

I think Froch should merit inclusion based on his run of tough fights. He may not have won them all but is a throw back to the days where fighters wanted to challenge themselves against the best opponents. He has helped banish the myth of the importance of an "0" on a record. He lives clean outside of the ring and is never more than a few lbs above his fighting weight. He is a role model to young fighters, fighters coming back from defeat, and fighters making the mistake of thinking they need to avoid defeat or tough challenges in order to protect their status.

Of the guys on the borderline list, I think Froch has the most impressive best five wins (Pascal, Dirrell, Taylor, Bute, Abraham). Cotto has fought decent level opponents for a longer period than Froch but I don't think his best wins were against as strong opponents (Judah, Mosley, Clottey, Magarito, Quintana). Also the run of opponents without a soft fight in between is what makes me put Froch above Kessler (Froch, Green, Andrade, Mundine, Beyer).

Edit: included Holyfield.

Edit2: included Hatton on the borderline list although I'd imagine he'll get in.

Surely Arce is a first ballot pick now.... The first true four time world champion from Mexico (I aint sure if Morales' paper WBC one should count). What more can he do.

Fernando Montiel maybe also?

Johnny Tapia (posthumous).

I always was a massive fan of Resondo Alvarez - maybe not a hall of fame career, but can count himself seriously unlucky that he was around when Ricardo Lopez was.

Vasquez and Rafael Marquez also contenders.

Surely he will be included , Hes a 3 time world champion , not a feat to be taken lightly

damianhucker1 wrote:Surely he will be included , Hes a 3 time world champion , not a feat to be taken lightly

Being highly pedantic, I don't think the 3 time world champion feat is a guarentee for Hall of Fame. I would agree with John's list that didn't include another geniune 3 time Super Middleweight champion - Marcus Beyer.... not even close.

I do appreciate though, looking at the resumes of both 3 time Super Middleweight champions it is like comparing Apples with Oranges. Froch for me with be a HoF - maybe not first ballot, but will get there eventually.

Yes.

No, not yet

Of the fringe list I think Hatton, Wright and Cotto will all walk into the hall, so right now Froch probably has his work cut out.... Getting into the hall is part skill, part achivement and part story/ style. I think win or lose his next few fights Froch is likely to give fans exciting fights and the fact that he has been such an important part of the last few years boxing gives him a good chance. I think the run he has been on over the past years has become kind've iconic, at least to serious boxing fans, because this is exactly what we all want to see. Of course, the losses and lack of any sort of ring title/ legit #1 status really hurt his chances. Hope he makes it, I think right now he might sneak in, but well short of a first ballot HoF fighter.

CheckHook wrote:Of the fringe list I think Hatton, Wright and Cotto will all walk into the hall, so right now Froch probably has his work cut out.... Getting into the hall is part skill, part achivement and part story/ style. I think win or lose his next few fights Froch is likely to give fans exciting fights and the fact that he has been such an important part of the last few years boxing gives him a good chance. I think the run he has been on over the past years has become kind've iconic, at least to serious boxing fans, because this is exactly what we all want to see. Of course, the losses and lack of any sort of ring title/ legit #1 status really hurt his chances. Hope he makes it, I think right now he might sneak in, but well short of a first ballot HoF fighter.

Interesting that you think Wright strolls in despite his best wins coming against Mosley (who had lost 2 of his last 3), a semi retired Trinidad (1 fight in previous 3 years) & Quartey (never beat a top opponent), and having lost to Hopkins, Williams, Vargas in addition to a couple of nobodies earlier in his career. Admittedly Wright was a late developer and went undefeated in eight title fights at 154-160 between 2001 & 2006 during a time where he consistently held a top 5 P4P ranking. He didn't have a fan friendly style and was avoided when in his prime but for me he just comes up a little short. Maybe if he had handed Taylor his first defeat it would have cemented his place. The decision to step up in weight to fight Hopkins was a brave one but he was the never the same fighter from that point onwards.

I get the feeling Froch will be appreciated alot more a few years into his retirement. He wont get in straight away but in a few years he is a definite.

johnswan1 wrote:

CheckHook wrote:Of the fringe list I think Hatton, Wright and Cotto will all walk into the hall, so right now Froch probably has his work cut out.... Getting into the hall is part skill, part achivement and part story/ style. I think win or lose his next few fights Froch is likely to give fans exciting fights and the fact that he has been such an important part of the last few years boxing gives him a good chance. I think the run he has been on over the past years has become kind've iconic, at least to serious boxing fans, because this is exactly what we all want to see. Of course, the losses and lack of any sort of ring title/ legit #1 status really hurt his chances. Hope he makes it, I think right now he might sneak in, but well short of a first ballot HoF fighter.

Interesting that you think Wright strolls in despite his best wins coming against Mosley (who had lost 2 of his last 3), a semi retired Trinidad (1 fight in previous 3 years) & Quartey (never beat a top opponent), and having lost to Hopkins, Williams, Vargas in addition to a couple of nobodies earlier in his career. Admittedly Wright was a late developer and went undefeated in eight title fights at 154-160 between 2001 & 2006 during a time where he consistently held a top 5 P4P ranking. He didn't have a fan friendly style and was avoided when in his prime but for me he just comes up a little short. Maybe if he had handed Taylor his first defeat it would have cemented his place. The decision to step up in weight to fight Hopkins was a brave one but he was the never the same fighter from that point onwards.

I think its more about the fact that he's an integral part of the tapestry of his era... He shared a ring with the right people, was p4p rated, held the ring title at 154, fought Taylor to a draw for the middleweight title and mixed with alot of the names of his era, including jumping up to 175 to face Hopkins. His achillies heal though as you say was his style, but I still think he will make it to the hall.

Yes on opposition alone he should be, if gatti gets in froch gets in

Hagler2002 wrote:Froch's win was a good one but no better imo than his stoppage of Jermain Taylor.

Well your opinion is obv worthless

Froch`s best win was gainst Pascal. Hungry unbeaten fighte who went on to become world champion at the weight above beating some good fighters on the way including Dawson. he aslo pushed Hopkins all the way in both fights.

Froch beat him clearly. His top three wins have to Pascal, Bute and Abraham. That`s not bad going.