BoxRec

Goodnight, Irene wrote:You're right, my mistake. Man, what a breakout year 1973 was for Norton...

UD12 Lyle
SD12 Frazier
TKO8 Ellis
UD12 Ali

It's a shame he got upset by Patterson.

loaded_gloves wrote:Indeed - the 90s have a lot of 'should have foughts', whereas the 70s everybody fought everybody.

Yes, the 1990s did have an awful lot of "should have fights". The 1970s had some too, but certainly had a lot more big fights between top heavyweights than the 1990s. It's not even close.

Sometimes it isn't a case of one guy ducking another; sometimes they just aren't available at the same time. However, in the 1990s there were lot of heavyweights that seemed to be biding their time and not taking many risks.

morrison v mercer, morrison v lewis, morrison v foreman, morrison v ruddock, ruddock v lewis, ruddock v tyson(x2), tyson v lewis, tyson v holyfield(x2),
holyfield v lewis (x2), holyfield v moorer (x2), holyfield v bowe (x3), holyfield v mercer, holyfield v foreman, foreman v moorer, and there is probably more that im forgetting so i dont think we did too bad in the 90s at all.

I hope the 90s or 80s or 70s are back in boxing. I definately did not like the last decade at all. Especially some fighters like Oscar De La Hoya. What a waste of time the 2000s decade was

littlepug wrote:morrison v mercer, morrison v lewis, morrison v foreman, morrison v ruddock, ruddock v lewis, ruddock v tyson(x2), tyson v lewis, tyson v holyfield(x2),
holyfield v lewis (x2), holyfield v moorer (x2), holyfield v bowe (x3), holyfield v mercer, holyfield v foreman, foreman v moorer, and there is probably more that im forgetting so i dont think we did too bad in the 90s at all.

There were some decent matchups in the 1990s; but there should have been more.
Look at the Big Four in the 1970s-Ali,Foreman, Frazier and Norton. They all fought each other except for Norton-Frazier. That is 5 out of 6 huge matchups that took place between the four of them.
The 1990s "Big four"-Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, and Bowe had 4 of 6 matchups. however that is a little deceiving. Two of them Holyfield-Lewis and Lewis-Tyson, were far less significant than if they had happened several years previously.

Take it a step further and you really see it. The 2nd tier who were on top for a good part of the the 1970s-Quarry, Young, Lyle and Shavers. Add them to the Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton group and there is a potentional of 28 matchups that could have taken place. 20 of them did actaully take place.

Everone except for Frazier fought at least 5 of the other 7 guys.
In the 1990s if you add Mercer, Moorer, Foreman and Ruddock, to the Holyfield-Lewis-Tyson-Bowe group , you will see that only 11 out of a possible 28 matchups took place. Again that is including Lewis-Holyfield and Lewis-Tyson. Otherwise it is only 9. That is a dramatic difference.

There never really was a time when Holyfield/Lewis would have been more significant. Perhaps you just used the wrong wording, Holyfield was a touch past it then. No doubt that more match ups were missed in the 90's though. I think much of that was the increase in money more than reluctance.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Frazier/Norton
Frazier/Lyle
Frazier/Young
Foreman/Quarry
Foreman/Shavers
Norton/Lyle

I'm back! Okay, this is a very juicy list of matchups but how many of them were feasible or clamored for in the 70s? When was Frazier and Norton realistic? Norton was crushed by Foreman and only stepped back up against two time Frazier victim Quarry when Frazier was gearing up for an epic career ending finale vs Ali, Lyle was never realistically in the Frazier picture what with him losing to Quarry who Frazier chewed up, being stopped by Ali who Frazier beat, and outpointing a faded Ellis over 12 when Frazier bombed out a peak champion Ellis in 5. As attractive as that fight is in retrospect, at the time it doesn't stack up.

Young didn't emerge as a major player until his fight with Ali when Frazier was already committed to his career ending fight with Foreman a month later. Foreman/Quarry is nice but Quarry was beaten inside the distance by Foreman fodder Chuvalo, Frazier (twice) and Norton. Shavers was KOd by Lyle who Foreman then KOd and didn't emerge as a major player until Foreman was already retired, which leaves Norton/Lyle which certainly was feasible and would have been a great matchup. But Norton fighting Ali three times, Young, Foreman, Holmes, Quarry and Shavers more than fills his quota for being a fighting man who ducked nobody. Lyle going into legal freefall after his Foreman bout didn't help matters.

As great a list as that is of fantasy matches, and as obvious as my statement "in the 70s everybody fought everybody" should not be taken absolutely literally, the greater truth of the statement still holds that this was an era of fighting men who didn't duck the fights the public and media demanded, which you simply could not say about the 90s. Bowe/Lewis not happening is like Ali/Frazier not happening in the 70s.

Ambling Alp wrote: There were some decent matchups in the 1990s; but there should have been more.
Look at the Big Four in the 1970s-Ali,Foreman, Frazier and Norton. They all fought each other except for Norton-Frazier. That is 5 out of 6 huge matchups that took place between the four of them.
The 1990s "Big four"-Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, and Bowe had 4 of 6 matchups. however that is a little deceiving. Two of them Holyfield-Lewis and Lewis-Tyson, were far less significant than if they had happened several years previously.

Take it a step further and you really see it. The 2nd tier who were on top for a good part of the the 1970s-Quarry, Young, Lyle and Shavers. Add them to the Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton group and there is a potentional of 28 matchups that could have taken place. 20 of them did actaully take place.

Everone except for Frazier fought at least 5 of the other 7 guys.
In the 1990s if you add Mercer, Moorer, Foreman and Ruddock, to the Holyfield-Lewis-Tyson-Bowe group , you will see that only 11 out of a possible 28 matchups took place. Again that is including Lewis-Holyfield and Lewis-Tyson. Otherwise it is only 9. That is a dramatic difference.

You illustrate this far better than I ever could! Underlines the unassailable point that the 70s gave the people the fights they wanted. I do think Holyfield/Lewis might have probably been a better fight in 94 than it was in 99 though, but the fight in 99 was 'bigger' what with all the hold up, the Holyfield crushing of Tyson and the perception of Lewis being the dangerous, unfashionable frozen out Englishman. God only knows how the 94 fight would have played. Holyfield fighting with a serious shoulder injury and Lewis an arrogant, clumsy, power mad oaf with two left feet and bagging for a knockout that McCall/Steward/Page would later orchestrate. Fascinating fight.

loaded_gloves wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: Frazier/Norton
Frazier/Lyle
Frazier/Young
Foreman/Quarry
Foreman/Shavers
Norton/Lyle

I'm back! Okay, this is a very juicy list of matchups but how many of them were feasible or clamored for in the 70s? When was Frazier and Norton realistic? Norton was crushed by Foreman and only stepped back up against two time Frazier victim Quarry when Frazier was gearing up for an epic career ending finale vs Ali, Lyle was never realistically in the Frazier picture what with him losing to Quarry who Frazier chewed up, being stopped by Ali who Frazier beat, and outpointing a faded Ellis over 12 when Frazier bombed out a peak champion Ellis in 5. As attractive as that fight is in retrospect, at the time it doesn't stack up.

Young didn't emerge as a major player until his fight with Ali when Frazier was already committed to his career ending fight with Foreman a month later. Foreman/Quarry is nice but Quarry was beaten inside the distance by Foreman fodder Chuvalo, Frazier (twice) and Norton. Shavers was KOd by Lyle who Foreman then KOd and didn't emerge as a major player until Foreman was already retired, which leaves Norton/Lyle which certainly was feasible and would have been a great matchup. But Norton fighting Ali three times, Young, Foreman, Holmes, Quarry and Shavers more than fills his quota for being a fighting man who ducked nobody. Lyle going into legal freefall after his Foreman bout didn't help matters.

As great a list as that is of fantasy matches, and as obvious as my statement "in the 70s everybody fought everybody" should not be taken absolutely literally, the greater truth of the statement still holds that this was an era of fighting men who didn't duck the fights the public and media demanded, which you simply could not say about the 90s. Bowe/Lewis not happening is like Ali/Frazier not happening in the 70s.

Sorry, I had no idea that you didn't want your statements taken literally. You could have just said that instead of lashing out when I rightfully corrected you. You could easily go through losses and reasons why many of the 90's fights didn't take place either. Your problem is you just flew off the handle and assumed the main point was being disagreed with. It never was.

Are you this much of a pedant face to face with real people? To the point where you can't socialise or even partake in conversation because you're so obsessed with picking people up on minor, insignificant details? And then reveling in what you perceive to be anyone else's mistake? Pedants are so draining and irritating to be around, if this is what you do in real life you must be incredibly lonely. And if you don't do it in real life, and just go out of your way to annoy complete strangers from the safe anonymity of the internet, then that's pretty pathetic for a grown man, isn't it.

You know what I was saying. I know you know what I was saying. So why this excessive, suffocating need to correct what doesn't need to be corrected?

[Can't wait for you to avoid the question, use your favourite laughing emoticon, and attempt some cutting repose which in actual fact is the most lame, easy, route one sarcastic response that a school child could easily think up]

I'm exactly the same in person as I am on line, humor often doesn't translate as well in writing but I'm sure you would get butt hurt as I corrected you face to face in much the same fashion you are here.

" In the 70's everybody fought everybody"

That's what you said, no I didn't know that you meant anymore than that until your unprovoked tirade. I don't care about that, but it's pretty amusing you're going on and on about my personality flaws in a thread where you're acting like a complete asshole.

While off topic questions are being asked, I'll pose one to you.

I don't recall us butting heads in the past, but since I frequently argue on here I'll just assume we have and say that I don't carry them from thread to thread.

If you have an argument with someone in your office, or wherever you work, are you unable to bury it when it's over and have a civil conversation in the future? Because if that's the case, you must be very lonely.

I'm far from perfect, I am very intelligent and equally stubborn. You have to prove me wrong twice for me to admit it. Human beings are flawed, I'm also about as easy a person to get along with as you would ever meet. Crazy, right? Most of this is good natured believe it or not. My friends and I, yes there are many of them, have always ripped each other to shreds.

loaded_gloves wrote:

Ambling Alp wrote: There were some decent matchups in the 1990s; but there should have been more.
Look at the Big Four in the 1970s-Ali,Foreman, Frazier and Norton. They all fought each other except for Norton-Frazier. That is 5 out of 6 huge matchups that took place between the four of them.
The 1990s "Big four"-Holyfield, Lewis, Tyson, and Bowe had 4 of 6 matchups. however that is a little deceiving. Two of them Holyfield-Lewis and Lewis-Tyson, were far less significant than if they had happened several years previously.

Take it a step further and you really see it. The 2nd tier who were on top for a good part of the the 1970s-Quarry, Young, Lyle and Shavers. Add them to the Ali-Foreman-Frazier-Norton group and there is a potentional of 28 matchups that could have taken place. 20 of them did actaully take place.

Everone except for Frazier fought at least 5 of the other 7 guys.
In the 1990s if you add Mercer, Moorer, Foreman and Ruddock, to the Holyfield-Lewis-Tyson-Bowe group , you will see that only 11 out of a possible 28 matchups took place. Again that is including Lewis-Holyfield and Lewis-Tyson. Otherwise it is only 9. That is a dramatic difference.

You illustrate this far better than I ever could! Underlines the unassailable point that the 70s gave the people the fights they wanted. I do think Holyfield/Lewis might have probably been a better fight in 94 than it was in 99 though, but the fight in 99 was 'bigger' what with all the hold up, the Holyfield crushing of Tyson and the perception of Lewis being the dangerous, unfashionable frozen out Englishman. God only knows how the 94 fight would have played. Holyfield fighting with a serious shoulder injury and Lewis an arrogant, clumsy, power mad oaf with two left feet and bagging for a knockout that McCall/Steward/Page would later orchestrate. Fascinating fight.

You make a good point that Holyfield-Lewis was more anticiapted in 1999 than if they had fought in say 1994. Lewis wasn't as well known and holyfield was not quite as popular. (Lewis was actually a top contender back in 1992) However, it would have been a better fight had they fought earlier. Even if they fought in 1996 or 1997 (after Holyfield beat Tyson) it would have a better fight and there would have about as much interest as 1999. Obviously Holyfield was way past in 1999 when they fought. He was 36, had looked bad against Bean in his previous fight. He wasn't anywhere near the fighter he had once been when he fought Lewis.

As for the bigger point about the 1970s, I think we are on the same page. Usually interesting fights happened. In 1990s at times they happened, but not nearly as frequently.

double post

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:While off topic questions are being asked, I'll pose one to you.

I don't recall us butting heads in the past, but since I frequently argue on here I'll just assume we have and say that I don't carry them from thread to thread.

If you have an argument with someone in your office, or wherever you work, are you unable to bury it when it's over and have a civil conversation in the future? Because if that's the case, you must be very lonely.

I'm far from perfect, I am very intelligent and equally stubborn. You have to prove me wrong twice for me to admit it. Human beings are flawed, I'm also about as easy a person to get along with as you would ever meet. Crazy, right? Most of this is good natured believe it or not. My friends and I, yes there are many of them, have always ripped each other to shreds.

LOL someone send the straightjackets around, a case of clinical delusion I think!
I suspect Sadie is an absolute social outcast in real life , Loaded. He is simply an utterly misraeble human devoid of any human empathy.

Back to the thread Sadie tried to derail, the 90's do look a golden era now... Id love another 70s v 90s HW thread on here. Someone start one with more of these matchups that never took place.