BoxRec

Yes Maley, Something needs to be done about these things.

Talkischeap wrote:Boxrec's ratings are simply boxrecs ratings.

Who promotes Nas not Dave Coldwell? You cannot blame everything on promoters Nas has been unlucky with injury and other things. He could of fought F Gavin and got lots of exposure..that wasnt promoters fault he got injured or that he lost abroad you knew before you went that he had to knock out Della Rosa so Nas has had his chances and I'm sure he will get more. It dosnt matter if he takes a fight late notice look at Darren Hamilton I spoke to him and he said he knew was gonna get a late notice phone call so he made sure he was ready. We cant keep on making excuses if you know promoters dirty tricks prepare for it.

Talkischeap wrote:Mcato, you have lost me.

Sorry i was reffering to what Saf was saying on the previous page about promoters wont allow Nas to fight boxers in the top ten only if it's late notice which I think boxers should be ready if they know oppertunities are few and far between

Talkischeap wrote:Ok mate, ye not a move i'd make with one of my lads but hats off to those that do.

Well if you haven't got a top promoter and you get a call to fight in 2 weeks time for the British title you might just say yes especially if your name is Darren Hamilton!

mcato wrote:

Talkischeap wrote:Boxrec's ratings are simply boxrecs ratings.

Who promotes Nas not Dave Coldwell? You cannot blame everything on promoters Nas has been unlucky with injury and other things. He could of fought F Gavin and got lots of exposure..that wasnt promoters fault he got injured or that he lost abroad you knew before you went that he had to knock out Della Rosa so Nas has had his chances and I'm sure he will get more. It dosnt matter if he takes a fight late notice look at Darren Hamilton I spoke to him and he said he knew was gonna get a late notice phone call so he made sure he was ready. We cant keep on making excuses if you know promoters dirty tricks prepare for it.

Who is blaming everything on the promoters, all I said is that the big Promoters mostly dictate who fights for titles and if you fight one of their guys, you have to fight on their card on their terms, that is reality or don't you know that ? Your fighter Ochieng is with a big promoter and jumped in front of Nas and Jamie Ball to get the English title shot, so I would not expect you to agree with this as the boot is on the other foot with your camp, the Frankie Gavin fight was at short notice and on warrens show, we excepted that, yes he was taken ill so we had to pull out, after being refused delaying it for an extra few weeks whilst he could recover, it was only the second time we have pulled out of a fight, the other was an injured rib, but Nas has fought a few times with either an injury or sickness, he has also faced fighters as high as 12st 10lbs and 12st 3lbs, so you can't make comments regarding Nasser's commitment, he has had to do it the hard way, yes we took a huge risk fighting in Italy, but it was for a title and no 6 ranking and we did not think he would have to knock out Della Rosa to win, not at all. Believe me if Nasser was offered a British title shot at short notice on the champions show, we would bite their hand off, but we don't get them because Nas is too much of a risk for anyone, your thoughts on this occasion are well off the mark.

mcato wrote:

Talkischeap wrote:Ok mate, ye not a move i'd make with one of my lads but hats off to those that do.

Well if you haven't got a top promoter and you get a call to fight in 2 weeks time for the British title you might just say yes especially if your name is Darren Hamilton!

Have you thought why they did not except former welter English champion Adil Anwar's offer, after all he was already doing a ten rounder on the same bill, but they decided to to refuse his offer and draft in what they thought was the easier option Darren Hamilton who was out of the gym and suffering from flu, I wish you was in my shoes, you would see things differently, this is why boxing in this country is in a mess and support is on the decline, false champions who are given titles and don't want to fight the best in their division, but pick opponents for easy wins to gain the Lonsdale belt out right.

mcato wrote:

Talkischeap wrote:Ok mate, ye not a move i'd make with one of my lads but hats off to those that do.

Well if you haven't got a top promoter and you get a call to fight in 2 weeks time for the British title you might just say yes especially if your name is Darren Hamilton!

Fair play to Darren Hamilton, he took the risk and it payed off, Adil will have to do things the hard way, English champ, Prizefighter champ, now he has to fight in an eliminator against big puncher and huge welter Dale Miles, who himself has already won an eliminator by Ko against warrior Curtis Wood house, as I said some guys have to do it the hard way.

mcato wrote:

Talkischeap wrote:Mcato, you have lost me.

Sorry i was reffering to what Saf was saying on the previous page about promoters wont allow Nas to fight boxers in the top ten only if it's late notice which I think boxers should be ready if they know oppertunities are few and far between

Mcato if you was a trainer you would understand why fighters can't keep training non stop whilst waiting on the small chance of a call, if a fighter keeps training hard enough for a long distance fight all the time, he can go stale, get injured or get ill, he has to have rest periods, he can tick over sometimes, but we are not talking about fighting novices or journeymen here, are we ? We are talking about the cream of british boxing.

safeerah wrote:

mcato wrote:

Talkischeap wrote:Mcato, you have lost me.

Sorry i was reffering to what Saf was saying on the previous page about promoters wont allow Nas to fight boxers in the top ten only if it's late notice which I think boxers should be ready if they know oppertunities are few and far between

Mcato if you was a trainer you would understand why fighters can't keep training non stop whilst waiting on the small chance of a call, if a fighter keeps training hard enough for a long distance fight all the time, he can go stale, get injured or get ill, he has to have rest periods, he can tick over sometimes, but we are not talking about fighting novices or journeymen here, are we ? We are talking about the cream of british boxing.

Saf please don't go on one of you ranting missions I'm not having a go honestly not! When Erick didnt have Hearns he was struggling and got a call to fight Liam Cameron and even though Liam's camp knew would be a hard fight and at home in Sheffield Erick just came of a lost the luke Robinson but Erick had to take that oppertunity to fight Liam. Look at Erick's card he had to do it the hard way but he took his chances. Losing to Robinson was the best thing that happened to Erick because he couldn't get to fight someone higher in the rankings. Please do not try and talk down to people if they are a trainer or not....I understand boxing! Naj this is not an argument!

Mcato, are you saying, that by me explaining the situation in the industry and Nasser's situation, that I am talking down to you or going on a ranting mission ? Because I am not ! You accused me of blaming promoters for everything, yet you go on to say that Erick Ochieng had to go to someone else's show in their home town to fight, because Erick was struggling at the time, did not Cameron's promoter pick the fight and give his fighter home advantage ? Did he have more notice then you ? Explaining how the training side goes is not talking down to you, but giving you an insight into the difficulties of preparation for fights, if you think I am having a go I am not, just going into more detail, I am aware that Erick as had it hard, lesser fighters might have quit, but now he is on the other side and getting the benefits of being with a big promoter, including any advantages, don't get me wrong Erick deserves his change of circumstances. Remember people were worried about the fact that Amir Khan had been training for too long after the Peterson saga, if he would go stale. This is a debate, not an argument, Nasser has been avoided for a long in this country because they know about him, Della Rosa's camp did not, that's why they where going crazy in the corner between rounds and Della Rosa's Promoter was removed from ringside for ranting, screaming and trying to influence the referee. The reason I have to to enlighten people to our situation is because not so long ago people on these forums accused us of not wanting to fight anyone, yet at the time we had tried very hard to get decent match ups, but when you are refused, what can you do ?

Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Thats a very good point Bripez. Is Naz not with Coldwell? Maybe promoters thinkSaf has a big influence in Nassser's future they would rather Saf out the way before approaching Nas. A promoters dream is to have a good boxer who dosen't have wise peolple or family members around them.

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Thats a very good point Bripez. Is Naz not with Coldwell? Maybe promoters thinkSaf has a big influence in Nassser's future they would rather Saf out the way before approaching Nas. A promoters dream is to have a good boxer who dosen't have wise peolple or family members around them.

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Nasser was signed by allegedly for a while, but due to lack of fights and fights falling through i.e Dean Byrne and Matthew Hall, we took out our contractual option to part company, lets be honest we are were not the only one's .

A very good question Bripez, something I have tried to get to grips with over the last few years, many reasons spring to mind, fan base is one, some fighters fit the bill, local well known boy affiliated fan to a local Pro football team or well known person on the pub or club scene, maybe someone with a massive family, top amateur with support from the Ams, someone with a family background in the sport, fighters with foreign origin struggle in these departments and Promoters are aware of this, football has mostly white orientated support, muslim fighters don't normally go to pubs and clubs, their family base is usually in another country, the majority of amateurs are white, but more asians are coming into boxing because of Amir Khan, this is a fact of life, not calling racism here, but how many ethnic minorities pay to see pro boxing or are interested in boxing. Nasser does sell tickets, but not on the scale of the bigger ticket sellers, in the Arab countries Nasser would do well in that area, but not because they like boxing or follow boxing, but because of his family out there and the interest it would generate.

Nasser had a short Amateur career, started around 15 years old and left at 17 getting robbed in 2 Junior national finals and only having about 15 fights in the process, he was ranked no 2 in the ABA list, he was on the wrong end of a bad decision against a Junior world championship qualifier in the one final and in only his 4th fight he lost a majority decision on short notice to a Junior World championship silver medalist all his fights where at 12 st, well above the weight he fights in the pros, Nasser left the Ams because of the bad decisions and then had to train in the pro gyms till he was 18, so he never developed a big fan base.

We have been approached by American promoters, but relocating and visa's is a major hurdle, plus Nasser has always wanted to make his name in the country of his birth, England.

The other point mentioned about him being trained and manager by me, his father is correct also, promoters like to have full control.

mcato wrote:

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Thats a very good point Bripez. Is Naz not with Coldwell? Maybe promoters thinkSaf has a big influence in Nassser's future they would rather Saf out the way before approaching Nas. A promoters dream is to have a good boxer who dosen't have wise peolple or family members around them.

Very good point Mcato

safeerah wrote:

mcato wrote:

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Thats a very good point Bripez. Is Naz not with Coldwell? Maybe promoters thinkSaf has a big influence in Nassser's future they would rather Saf out the way before approaching Nas. A promoters dream is to have a good boxer who dosen't have wise peolple or family members around them.

Very good point Mcato

yes agreed. does it worry you that at some point you may have to compromise or take more of a backseat or become less (for want of a better word) independent and opinionated so that Nasser gets a chance?

I have already done it mate, when he first turned pro with Richie Woodhall and First Team Promotions, We also signed with allegedly, but it did not work out in the end, so I took the control back, after all no one is going to look after your son more then you. Who knows what could happen in the future ? What I do know is that in this Industry you get promised the earth, but once you have signed things change.

safeerah wrote:

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Nasser was signed by allegedly for a while, but due to lack of fights and fights falling through i.e Dean Byrne and Matthew Hall, we took out our contractual option to part company, lets be honest we are were not the only one's .

A very good question Bripez, something I have tried to get to grips with over the last few years, many reasons spring to mind, fan base is one, some fighters fit the bill, local well known boy affiliated fan to a local Pro football team or well known person on the pub or club scene, maybe someone with a massive family, top amateur with support from the Ams, someone with a family background in the sport, fighters with foreign origin struggle in these departments and Promoters are aware of this, football has mostly white orientated support, muslim fighters don't normally go to pubs and clubs, their family base is usually in another country, the majority of amateurs are white, but more asians are coming into boxing because of Amir Khan, this is a fact of life, not calling racism here, but how many ethnic minorities pay to see pro boxing or are interested in boxing. Nasser does sell tickets, but not on the scale of the bigger ticket sellers, in the Arab countries Nasser would do well in that area, but not because they like boxing or follow boxing, but because of his family out there and the interest it would generate.

Nasser had a short Amateur career, started around 15 years old and left at 17 getting robbed in 2 Junior national finals and only having about 15 fights in the process, he was ranked no 2 in the ABA list, he was on the wrong end of a bad decision against a Junior world championship qualifier in the one final and in only his 4th fight he lost a majority decision on short notice to a Junior World championship silver medalist all his fights where at 12 st, well above the weight he fights in the pros, Nasser left the Ams because of the bad decisions and then had to train in the pro gyms till he was 18, so he never developed a big fan base.

We have been approached by American promoters, but relocating and visa's is a major hurdle, plus Nasser has always wanted to make his name in the country of his birth, England.

The other point mentioned about him being trained and manager by me, his father is correct also, promoters like to have full control.

All these things you have mentioned. Erick started with handful of fans Kenyans are into running not boxing. He started ams at 16 and been robbed 2 many times and had to change the way he boxed and started knocking out boxers they called him "reckless Erick" I could tell you many stories about this young lad that came over from Kenya and had to live in a home but he is English Champ with people that support him because he is a nice guy and never complains he just gets on with it. I could be wrong but Saf if you announced you was gonna take a back seat I mean totally " a back seat" Nas will get offers and some good ones but saying that look at Garcia's and his dad they have made it to the top!

its a delicate balancing act though surely mcato?

if i had a son i wouldn't be stepping back and leaving his future in this industry entirely in the hands of others I am sure

mcato wrote:

safeerah wrote:

bripez wrote:Ok, I understand (and agree) with what you are saying Saf.

However, if Nasser is such a great talent and "has been avoided for a long time in this country because they know about him" - then why dont "they" (i.e. a big promoter) sign him up ?

Genuine question.

Nasser was signed by allegedly for a while, but due to lack of fights and fights falling through i.e Dean Byrne and Matthew Hall, we took out our contractual option to part company, lets be honest we are were not the only one's .

A very good question Bripez, something I have tried to get to grips with over the last few years, many reasons spring to mind, fan base is one, some fighters fit the bill, local well known boy affiliated fan to a local Pro football team or well known person on the pub or club scene, maybe someone with a massive family, top amateur with support from the Ams, someone with a family background in the sport, fighters with foreign origin struggle in these departments and Promoters are aware of this, football has mostly white orientated support, muslim fighters don't normally go to pubs and clubs, their family base is usually in another country, the majority of amateurs are white, but more asians are coming into boxing because of Amir Khan, this is a fact of life, not calling racism here, but how many ethnic minorities pay to see pro boxing or are interested in boxing. Nasser does sell tickets, but not on the scale of the bigger ticket sellers, in the Arab countries Nasser would do well in that area, but not because they like boxing or follow boxing, but because of his family out there and the interest it would generate.

Nasser had a short Amateur career, started around 15 years old and left at 17 getting robbed in 2 Junior national finals and only having about 15 fights in the process, he was ranked no 2 in the ABA list, he was on the wrong end of a bad decision against a Junior world championship qualifier in the one final and in only his 4th fight he lost a majority decision on short notice to a Junior World championship silver medalist all his fights where at 12 st, well above the weight he fights in the pros, Nasser left the Ams because of the bad decisions and then had to train in the pro gyms till he was 18, so he never developed a big fan base.

We have been approached by American promoters, but relocating and visa's is a major hurdle, plus Nasser has always wanted to make his name in the country of his birth, England.

The other point mentioned about him being trained and manager by me, his father is correct also, promoters like to have full control.

All these things you have mentioned. Erick started with handful of fans Kenyans are into running not boxing. He started ams at 16 and been robbed 2 many times and had to change the way he boxed and started knocking out boxers they called him "reckless Erick" I could tell you many stories about this young lad that came over from Kenya and had to live in a home but he is English Champ with people that support him because he is a nice guy and never complains he just gets on with it. I could be wrong but Saf if you announced you was gonna take a back seat I mean totally " a back seat" Nas will get offers and some good ones but saying that look at Garcia's and his dad they have mage it to the top!

Maybe Enzo Calzagie should of done it too then he would not have produced all the other champions he has produced, maybe Roger Mayweather should do it too, he could be the reason the Pacman fight has not come off ? Moseley's Dad, Oscar Della Hoya, Miguel Cotto's Dad, Roy Jones Juniors Dad ect.. It will not get Nasser the big offers has you say, though it might get him ripped off and tied to contracts. There is a reason Nasser is such a good technical boxer and has such sound defense. a reason why he is improving all the time, a reason why he has got a world ranking, think about that ? A fighter is the product of his training, Mcato you get upset when you feel someone is undermining you, yet you do it to other people, without thinking.

safeerah wrote: many reasons spring to mind, fan base is one,

fighters with foreign origin struggle in these departments and Promoters are aware of this

not calling racism here, but how many ethnic minorities pay to see pro boxing or are interested in boxing.

Nasser does sell tickets, but not on the scale of the bigger ticket sellers,

Saf - The above is the issue : these days (more than ever I think) a boxer needs to be able to sell a volume of tickets almost from day one if they are going to be picked up by one of the big promoters.

I am not sure how you brough racism into it - the promoters do not care what colour, race, religion, shape or size you are - if you can sell tickets they will want to promote you.

Unless you are saying that ethnic minorities are racist as not many pay to see pro boxing or watch pro boxing (I assume you mean that more would pay to watch pro boxing if there were more ethnic minority boxers ?).

bripez wrote: I am not sure how you brough racism into it - the promoters do not care what colour, race, religion, shape or size you are - if you can sell tickets they will want to promote you.

i think he was just saying the fan demographic of boxing is overwhelmingly white so it's more difficult to build an asian prospect?

There is not a promoter good enough or trust worthy enough to just walk away and leave them to it, not one, look at the records, everyone of them have disgruntled fighters who are not getting the fights, the money or the opportunities, fighters are going to court to try and break thier contracts, young fighters are shoved in above their heads, then when they lose, they are given the boot, Mcato you are looking at it through rose tinted glasses, as I saiid before you are on the other side of the fence with Ochieng, be prepared for change if he loses.

bripez wrote:

safeerah wrote: many reasons spring to mind, fan base is one,

fighters with foreign origin struggle in these departments and Promoters are aware of this

not calling racism here, but how many ethnic minorities pay to see pro boxing or are interested in boxing.

Nasser does sell tickets, but not on the scale of the bigger ticket sellers,

Saf - The above is the issue : these days (more than ever I think) a boxer needs to be able to sell a volume of tickets almost from day one if they are going to be picked up by one of the big promoters.

I am not sure how you brough racism into it - the promoters do not care what colour, race, religion, shape or size you are - if you can sell tickets they will want to promote you.

Unless you are saying that ethnic minorities are racist as not many pay to see pro boxing or watch pro boxing (I assume you mean that more would pay to watch pro boxing if there were more ethnic minority boxers ?).

I did say, if you read my comment, quite clearly : NOT CALLING RACISM HERE. What I wrote is correct, as a trainer when someone comes into my gym and wants turn pro not only do you look at his ability, but if you can convince a promoter to put him his shows, nationalty does come into it, not because of colour, but culture, where will he get his fan base e.g. go to a mosque and ask people to come to a pro boxing show or go to a pub, where do you think you will get the most interest ? Not condemming anyone for what interests them.