BoxRec

You dont know what you are talking about. A Norton-Quarry bout was proposed in California several times at several different venues. Both guys were popular California fighters and it made sense. Norton wanted no part of it, or even sparring with Quarry after Quarry gave him a beating in a sparring session. Thats a fact. The idea that Quarry would not have fought Norton before Norton fought Ali because Quarry was only looking for big names is ludicrous. How many big names did Quarry face between his two fights with Ali and the his resurgent win against Lyle. Answer: NONE. He would have killed for an all California bout with Norton at a time when most had written him off. This of course all ignores the fact that between early 1973 and his mid 1974 when he lost in one sided fashion to Frazier he had revitalized his career and yet it was still nearly a year later and after he had lost in horrible fashion to Frazier and looked bad against human heavybag Johnson that Norton agreed to fight him. At that point Quarry was much slower, less defensively adept, and struggling with both alcohol and cocaine, his weight was now ballooning, in addition to dealing with issues at home. Lets not pretend that a fighters prime is dictated by his age. Its not. Quarry may have been thirty but he had been around the block and even had he not he was clearly well on his way to being a shot fighter. Ive never heard anyone seriously try to argue that Quarry was in his prime when he fought Norton. Thats just sad. On the other hand Norton was absolutely in his prime. You can ignore history and the facts all you want but it only shows your ignorance on the subject to far more informed or less biased people.

As for Norton giving Holmes the hardest fight of his prime. To quote you: PUHLEEZE. Holmes dominated that fight with one arm outside of a couple of hard fought, eye catching rounds. I think Shavers, Snipes, Spoon, and Weaver would all argue that they gave Holmes more moments of concern than Norton, who by the way lost that fight as he did every other major fight he had except one with Ali, a gift to Young, and yes against an aging and shot Quarry. So yeah, Ill stand by my ascertion that Norton is completely overrated, and totally undeserving of the HOF. When you can back up your ascertion that Jose Luis Garcia was an "underrated fighter at his best" or anything but skinny 50/50 journeyman then maybe I'll start listening to you. In reality Garcia was a guy who was fighting at 160 less than two years before facing Norton, was outweighed by Norton 20 pounds and still managed to KO him. But by your standards the 27 year old Norton was in his prime, right?

klompton wrote:You show an appalling lack of knowledge of the career trajectories of both Quarry and Norton.

Nope.
The idea that Norton was terrified of Quarry yet wasn't of Ali and Foreman) is silly. Also silly to think that Norton would be so scared of Quarry in 1973-1974 yet fight him in 1975. If you are going to cry that Quarry was way past it in 1975 you would be saying the same thing had they fought in 1974.
The sparring stories don't mean anything either. they are a dime a dozen.
Holmes dominated Norton? wow. Holmes-Norton was a great fight that was also a very competitive fight.
Snipes and Shavers scored knockdowns but weren't as competitive fight. Holmes won just about every other round against Snipes.
Witherspoon? Holmes was starting to slip by then.

Norton didn't start his career until 1967 when he was 24 after a brief amatuer career. When he fought Garcia he had only been a pro for less than 3 years when he fought Garcia. It is fair enough to count this as a negative when rating Norton but not as bad as one might think. You have to look at his whole career and weight the positives and negatives. btw, Quarry had three draws early in his career.

klompton wrote:You dont know what you are talking about. A Norton-Quarry bout was proposed in California several times at several different venues. Both guys were popular California fighters and it made sense. Norton wanted no part of it, or even sparring with Quarry after Quarry gave him a beating in a sparring session. Thats a fact. The idea that Quarry would not have fought Norton before Norton fought Ali because Quarry was only looking for big names is ludicrous. How many big names did Quarry face between his two fights with Ali and the his resurgent win against Lyle. Answer: NONE. He would have killed for an all California bout with Norton at a time when most had written him off. This of course all ignores the fact that between early 1973 and his mid 1974 when he lost in one sided fashion to Frazier he had revitalized his career and yet it was still nearly a year later and after he had lost in horrible fashion to Frazier and looked bad against human heavybag Johnson that Norton agreed to fight him. At that point Quarry was much slower, less defensively adept, and struggling with both alcohol and cocaine, his weight was now ballooning, in addition to dealing with issues at home. Lets not pretend that a fighters prime is dictated by his age. Its not. Quarry may have been thirty but he had been around the block and even had he not he was clearly well on his way to being a shot fighter. Ive never heard anyone seriously try to argue that Quarry was in his prime when he fought Norton. Thats just sad. On the other hand Norton was absolutely in his prime. You can ignore history and the facts all you want but it only shows your ignorance on the subject to far more informed or less biased people.

As for Norton giving Holmes the hardest fight of his prime. To quote you: PUHLEEZE. Holmes dominated that fight with one arm outside of a couple of hard fought, eye catching rounds. I think Shavers, Snipes, Spoon, and Weaver would all argue that they gave Holmes more moments of concern than Norton, who by the way lost that fight as he did every other major fight he had except one with Ali, a gift to Young, and yes against an aging and shot Quarry. So yeah, Ill stand by my ascertion that Norton is completely overrated, and totally undeserving of the HOF. When you can back up your ascertion that Jose Luis Garcia was an "underrated fighter at his best" or anything but skinny 50/50 journeyman then maybe I'll start listening to you. In reality Garcia was a guy who was fighting at 160 less than two years before facing Norton, was outweighed by Norton 20 pounds and still managed to KO him. But by your standards the 27 year old Norton was in his prime, right?

The only timeframe which would've been probable for this fight is 1971-72, when Quarry, a former title challenger with tons of world-class experience, would've been fighting a guy who had yet to leave the California club scene. But show me when the fight was scheduled/arranged and Norton backed out . . after 73 and the Ali win Norton was given bigger fish than Quarry until '75 when they fought. And no-one was suggesting Quarry was in his prime, but AT the time, Quarry was certaintly not regarded as a shot fighter by any means. One lackluster but winning performance vs Scrap Iron Johnson (which hardly any-one saw) didn't sound the trumpets that Jerry was now down for.

Garcia was a vicious puncher and a good boxer who had a number of out of the ring issues. You do realize when he weighed in the 160s he was still 18 years old? By 20 he had fully grown into being a HW, with a big 6'4 frame (all one has to do is look at the Norton rematch film to see Garcia was as big as Norton)

Most of the world sees the Norton-Holmes fight close than you do; I think Holmes deserved a clear W but Norton gave him more than a "few rounds" worth of scares; certainly much tougher fight than Shavers or Snipes gave him.

I would agree with your last sentence dempsey. (Withe exception of a few dramatic moments that those fights produced).

And I agree the Holmes fight was overall a good fight, but not particulary in doubt. Norton was fighting with all he was worth. I never mean to denegrate Kenny. And with that said, I'm back to believing that each man at their best produces a Quarry win, despite Quarry giving a bit of size away to Kenny.

I also can't help but imagine that this is the win that Kenny savored the most next to his win over Ali. But it was not earned over nearly the best Quarry. Not even close.