BoxRec

Spinks beat Ali in the first fight because he fought with non-stop aggression, and threw an amazing amount of punches. The Ali that fought Berbick could have never made it to the bell against the Spinks of that evening.

Ali easily won the Spinks rematch, mostly because he actually trained and took the fight seriously.

Parkinson’s is a degenerative disease and to think that Ali did not decline considerably between Spinks 1 and the Berbick fight just doesn’t make any sense.

mugabi wrote:I wouldnt read too much into the Wepner fight. Ali came in clowning, out of shape, I would doubt he trained properly more than a week. He treated it like a public sparring,humiliation exercise.

And he still beat the crap out of Wepner.

I've never heard Ali/Berbick described as a close fight before. He landed a couple punches in the fifth round, clearly lost every other one.

Ive heard a few people think it was close granted it was a minority. But its a moot point anyway i guess, ALi looked a corpse. very sad to see him in with a guy like berbick who he would have toyed with a 4-5 years earlier much less what he would have done in the 60s

mugabi wrote:I actually had the Ali-Berbick fight a close one. I imagined it wasnt Ali in there, but any other fighter and scored the fight on its merits. In that case it was a narrow berbick win or draw. Its only as it was the "greatest" the sad, diseased, corpse of the "greatest" that Ali looking like death warmed up makes us just think of it as a blastout

That fight is on youtube. Pretty boring for the most part. Ali did show some flashes here and there. He didn't take Berbick lightly, like he had Spinks the first time. He gave it all that he had; he just didn't have much to give anymore.
If you just look at at as two guys you never heard of heard of you would consider it a competitive fight. Ali probably won rounds 1,3, 6, and 8. Rounds 5 and 10 were close. Berbick didn't look very good himself; he looked tired himself. Occasionally he ould throw these wild combinations in which occasionally a clean punch would land.

He was still a great fighter in 1975. Ali-Frazier III was one of the greatest fights of all time. All you have to is watch it and you can see that. The intensity, the sheer amount of punches, despite the oppressive heat was incredible. Ali was still a good fighter in 1976-1977; but obviously not the same fighter he had been in 1971-1975.

Ali won round 5, Berbick won the rest of them. if it was remotely close, Ali would have won the decision. Even he knew it wasn't close.

mugabi wrote:I wouldnt read too much into the Wepner fight. Ali came in clowning, out of shape, I would doubt he trained properly more than a week. He treated it like a public sparring,humiliation exercise.

And then Wepner becomes famous by stepping on the great mans toes......

#1- Frazier himself had vision problems for years; when he fought Ali that last time he did what Pat Valentino did in cheating on his vision test to fight Ali, using his best eye to read the chart and using opposite hands to cover the same eye. I heard one man or two says in here that you cant have it both ways; either a man is passed it, or he had a great fight. Lets put it this way, all fighters have ONE last good fight in them, Manila was it for Ali and Frazier. People dont turn into garbage over night; one fight doesnnt do that to people, its many fights. Ali following Foreman was never the same guy; he looked impressive with Wepner, but that was about it. He looked dull against Bugner, he was losing on the score cards to Ron Lyle until the premature stoppage, etc. Following Manila, he was just a mess. But he was passed it! Any man who says the Ali of '76-'77 was the same Ali of '74 and prior needs to get rid of the rose colored glasses. He could rope-a-dope, he could take a punch, he could psyche you out, but essentially that was it. Frazier had the style to make Ali vulnerable, but both men brought the best out in eachother. I wager that had they fought in 1980, they would have had another war. They both were even in shape, ability, etc.

#2- If you take into consideration that had Ali not taken the thyroid/diuretic medication he would have been in the same shape he had been during the Spinks fights; his body wasnt cooperating with him in workouts, he couldnt lose the weight like he did before, so he took the drugs not realising that such a stupid thing could get you killed.

#3- The Ali of the Berbick fight, one could argue, was the same Ali that fought exhibitions in 1979 against John L. Gardner and Lyle Alzado; fat, slow, ponderous. The whole logic that he was taking both Holmes and Berbick lightly is absurd. He did it for the money period, because fact of the matter is Ali lost millions following his retirement because so called friends and investors robbed him blind.

#4- Ali beat Spinks easily in the rematch? I reckon so, when the other covered up and did nothing cus Spinks training camp consisted of him being detoxed a few weeks before the fight cus he disappeared down Bourbon Street with a gleam in his eye during the critical weeks of a championship training camp. Even at that, Ali looked old, slow, ponderous and guess what? It was one of the most boring and dull fights of all time, despite Cosell saying "Ali's giving Spinks a boxing lesson!", I rank it alongside the Evangelista fight as one of the worst of all time. Had Spinks been in shape, Ali would have lost again miserably.

As for Berbick-Ali, one last note, Berbick said years later that he couldn't hurt his idol. So he stuck with mainly body shots throughout the affair. Not to say he didnt throw hard body shots, cus he did. But essentially he knew he was fighting an echo of a man who was once great. Even with that 'kid gloves' approach to the fight, he beat Ali easily.

HomicideHenry wrote:As for Berbick-Ali, one last note, Berbick said years later that he couldn't hurt his idol. So he stuck with mainly body shots throughout the affair. Not to say he didnt throw hard body shots, cus he did. But essentially he knew he was fighting an echo of a man who was once great. Even with that 'kid gloves' approach to the fight, he beat Ali easily.

Berbick was not a great fighter, some nice wins over Thomas & Tate but as a whole his resume is unimpressive.

HomicideHenry wrote:#1- Frazier himself had vision problems for years; when he fought Ali that last time he did what Pat Valentino did in cheating on his vision test to fight Ali, using his best eye to read the chart and using opposite hands to cover the same eye. I heard one man or two says in here that you cant have it both ways; either a man is passed it, or he had a great fight. Lets put it this way, all fighters have ONE last good fight in them, Manila was it for Ali and Frazier. People dont turn into garbage over night; one fight doesnnt do that to people, its many fights. Ali following Foreman was never the same guy; he looked impressive with Wepner, but that was about it. He looked dull against Bugner, he was losing on the score cards to Ron Lyle until the premature stoppage, etc. Following Manila, he was just a mess. But he was passed it! Any man who says the Ali of '76-'77 was the same Ali of '74 and prior needs to get rid of the rose colored glasses. He could rope-a-dope, he could take a punch, he could psyche you out, but essentially that was it. Frazier had the style to make Ali vulnerable, but both men brought the best out in eachother. I wager that had they fought in 1980, they would have had another war. They both were even in shape, ability, etc.

#2- If you take into consideration that had Ali not taken the thyroid/diuretic medication he would have been in the same shape he had been during the Spinks fights; his body wasnt cooperating with him in workouts, he couldnt lose the weight like he did before, so he took the drugs not realising that such a stupid thing could get you killed.

#3- The Ali of the Berbick fight, one could argue, was the same Ali that fought exhibitions in 1979 against John L. Gardner and Lyle Alzado; fat, slow, ponderous. The whole logic that he was taking both Holmes and Berbick lightly is absurd. He did it for the money period, because fact of the matter is Ali lost millions following his retirement because so called friends and investors robbed him blind.

#4- Ali beat Spinks easily in the rematch? I reckon so, when the other covered up and did nothing cus Spinks training camp consisted of him being detoxed a few weeks before the fight cus he disappeared down Bourbon Street with a gleam in his eye during the critical weeks of a championship training camp. Even at that, Ali looked old, slow, ponderous and guess what? It was one of the most boring and dull fights of all time, despite Cosell saying "Ali's giving Spinks a boxing lesson!", I rank it alongside the Evangelista fight as one of the worst of all time. Had Spinks been in shape, Ali would have lost again miserably.

You said Ali and Frazier were "washed up" in Manila. That's nonsense. To say that the Ali of 1980 could've fought a war is also nonsense. That Ali basically was capable of absorbing a beating, nothing more.

On the Ali-Berbick fight, I could easily see that fight scored 10-0 Berbick. The best I could do for Ali was to give him the fifth and a share of the first. I also think Berbick took it easy on him as the fight wore on. In many ways I find the Berbick fight even more sad than the Holmes fight. At least the Holmes fight was a big-time title fight with all the trimmings. The Berbick fight was staged in a tent with a cowbell to signal rounds and fighters having to reuse each others gloves on the undercard. A low-rent affair and Ali looked almost as bad as he had vs. Larry.

The Ali that fought Spinks in the rematch certainly had the footwork but basically two punches, a slow left jab and a pretty inaccurate right cross. He was clearly completely shot at that point and it only got worse from there.