BoxRec

I guess it is too bad for us Swedes that Ingo didn't fight all his title defenses at Råsunda in December, and he'd still be heavyweight champion!!

I have visited Fort Worth Texas USA in the summer. It was not anywhere near 125 degrees F! The idea that Cruz was more accustomed to fighting in 125 degree F than McGuigan is absurd.

Controversial wrote:Barry McGuigan was always a favourite of mine but I do wonder if he retired too young (not long turned 29). He went out after being stopped on a cut against McDonnell in a fight that was quite tight upto being stopped, so its not like he was knocked out, a bad cut could happen to anyone. Any else think he should have given it another crack?

His other defeat to Cruz was quite unlucky, he was winning the fight right until the last round when those knockdowns tipped the scores the other way, the extreme heat was the issue, not Cruz in my opinion.

McGuigan had the flu and a 103 fever going into the Cruz fight. Yeah,he retired too soon imo. Could've stayed on for another few good years i would think.

Sven Tingstrom wrote:I guess it is too bad for us Swedes that Ingo didn't fight all his title defenses at Råsunda in December, and he'd still be heavyweight champion!!

I have visited Fort Worth Texas USA in the summer. It was not anywhere near 125 degrees F! The idea that Cruz was more accustomed to fighting in 125 degree F than McGuigan is absurd.

No one said being acclimatised to the weather makes you invincible, your scraping the barrel with that argument.

The temperature hit 125 degrees in the fight, maybe higher. Just because it wasn't that hot when you were there is irrelevant.

What is absurd that you think that Cruz, who was born, raised and lived in Texas, which hits average temperatures of almost 100 degrees in the hottest months, isn't more used to hot conditions than someone who lives in Belfast which is normally raining and has an average temperature of about 60 degrees at its best.

So we are clear you think the heat had absolutely no affect on the outcome of the fight, even though pretty much everyone who saw it, commentated on it or wrote about it said it was a major factor in the fight? Even Cruz said the heat was bad and was quoted as saying " “I faded early,” he said. “My feet hurt, my back was burning. It was bad.”

Controversial wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote:I guess it is too bad for us Swedes that Ingo didn't fight all his title defenses at Råsunda in December, and he'd still be heavyweight champion!!

I have visited Fort Worth Texas USA in the summer. It was not anywhere near 125 degrees F! The idea that Cruz was more accustomed to fighting in 125 degree F than McGuigan is absurd.

No one said being acclimatised to the weather makes you invincible, your scraping the barrel with that argument.

The temperature hit 125 degrees in the fight, maybe higher. Just because it wasn't that hot when you were there is irrelevant.

What is absurd that you think that Cruz, who was born, raised and lived in Texas, which hits average temperatures of almost 100 degrees in the hottest months, isn't more used to hot conditions than someone who lives in Belfast which is normally raining and has an average temperature of about 60 degrees at its best.

So we are clear you think the heat had absolutely no affect on the outcome of the fight, even though pretty much everyone who saw it, commentated on it or wrote about it said it was a major factor in the fight? Even Cruz said the heat was bad and was quoted as saying " “I faded early,” he said. “My feet hurt, my back was burning. It was bad.”

Ha ha. You are a funny guy! I never said I had been to Las Vegas Nevada USA. I said I had been to Fort Worth Texas USA where the highest average temperature has never been 100 degrees according to the USA National Weather Service. I never said the heat was not bad. What I said was that it was just as hot for Cruz, and as your quote shows, I am right. To say that McGuigan would not have lost in the heat is pure speculation. It was just as hot for Cruz. Your quote shows that Cruz was suffering too.

Controversial wrote:

Rover wrote:
I'll take Chris Shenkel's word for what the conditions were; Taylor, a Charlotte native, couldn't go on because of the heat.
As for McGuigan, if you have to go to "he'd have won in the UK," that indicates inferiority to me. Cruz had to deal with the same heat. And Cruz had never gone 15 rounds, either; he was a late replacement for Fernando Sosa.

Whatever the conditions they were nowhere near the conditions McGuigan fought Cruz in, not by a million miles. If Taylor was so heat stricken after 8 rounds then maybe he didn't train properly?

Rover wrote:
You say Cruz was acclamated to the heat, but when did he fight in that type of heat? That's Sven's point. Also, McGuigan could've trained in NV just like Cruz.

Cruz was acclimatised because he was born and lived in those conditions all his life. The highest temperature ever recorded in Belfast is 87 degrees. That isn't very high and when you compare that to the 125 degree it hit in the Cruz fight it is a huge factor. Cruz lived in a hot state, so was more used to it, its not a hard concept to understand really. Just like Eskimos are more acclimatised to cold weather than a Jamaican is.

Yes McGuigan could have trained in the same conditions, his mistake, I never said he wasn't blameless. What I said was the heat had more of an effect on McGuigan and that was the reason he lost, not because Cruz was the better fighter. If he wasn't dropped in the last round he would've won on the scorecards.

I already had Cruz ahead by 2, so I'm glad he was dropped, as he'd have been denied a deserved win.
And "living in" heat and "fighting in" heat are two different things.
The Taylor example you cited proves the point. It was over 100 in the Taylor ring according to Shenkel--far above the highest recorded temperature ever in Belfast.

Still waiting to hear when Cruz had FOUGHT in heat like that before. 125 degrees and the 90s (living in that weather) are two very different things.

You are a smart guy. The other fellow not so much!

Cruz never lived in 125 F temperature, and I bet that is the only time he boxed in those conditions. I am glad somebody got the point.

Sven Tingstrom wrote: You are a smart guy. The other fellow not so much!

Cruz never lived in 125 F temperature, and I bet that is the only time he boxed in those conditions. I am glad somebody got the point.

Well, some people are so dense as to call Cruz "a Mexican" when the argument is based on his being a Texan. There are plenty of white and black Texans.

Sven Tingstrom wrote: You are a smart guy. The other fellow not so much!

Cruz never lived in 125 F temperature, and I bet that is the only time he boxed in those conditions. I am glad somebody got the point.

Rover wrote: I already had Cruz ahead by 2, so I'm glad he was dropped, as he'd have been denied a deserved win.
And "living in" heat and "fighting in" heat are two different things.
The Taylor example you cited proves the point. It was over 100 in the Taylor ring according to Shenkel--far above the highest recorded temperature ever in Belfast.

I'm not really sure what you two are arguing about. The simple fact is Cruz was more used to the heat than McGuigan, thats all I am saying. Maybe he had fought in hotter or similar conditions, who knows but McGuigan hadn't. The Taylor fight is not comparable, it was at night not in a desert sun in a ring with 72 television lights over it making it even hotter. Taylor quit at the end of round 8, he didn't go 15 rounds so that says more about his lack of heart, lack of training or simply an excuse for losing.

Cruz had fought several times in Las Vegas (a desert) and mostly in Nevada which another very hot state. Anyone one with pale white skin will struggle in the heat, especially when they are not used to it and McGuigan wasn't. If Cruz was saying his dark tanned skin was burning then then McGuigan must have been on fire.

The fact still remains McGuigan was ahead on the scorecards going into the last round, and ahead on most observers cards. It was quite clear he was shattered in the last round, if he was had plenty of energy and was outboxed and later used the excuse the heat was an issue I would agree with you but it is quite clear he was struggling, which is why he was stretchered off and taken to hospital with exhaustion and heat stroke.

So do you both think if they fought in normal conditions Cruz would have still won?

I think it's fair to say the heat affected them both, but definitely McGuigan more. He was hospitalised and suffering from severe dehydration and delirious. If you look at the photo of him late in the fight he looks half dead, a detached faraway look in his eyes.

It was a very close fight, including the knockdowns. McGuigan had trouble making the weight too, he had to strip off naked.

Cruz was from Texas and trained in Don Curry's gym, but was of Mexican parentage. It's unfortunate for him that he had to defend against Antonio Esparragoza, who was pretty good and heavy handed. He would feature highly on PFP lists before his reign ended.

Yes, he definitely retired too early.

LaPorte, Pedroza and Taylor were all world class fighters. Unfortunately Barry had issues outside of the ring. A fight with the ageing Gomez at 130 might have made sense but those out of the ring problems would probably have got to him eventually.

The Cruz fight was amazing. How McGuigan got back into the fight I've no idea. Very sad to see him go in that final round.

Big fights with Nelson, Fenech were on the cards. Would have been classics.

Had he beaten Cruz I just can't see him fighting at the top level with too much success. His fight against Jim McDonnell was a sad thing to watch

Had he fought Gomez at 130 he would have won, most likely...

If he was able to maintain his intensity I'd have had him 50-50 with someone like Lockridge.

McGuigan would have given Chavez a great fight at 130.

I don't think he'd have beaten Chavez, Nelson or Fenech but he'd have made them great because he would not have been easy for anyone.

McGuigan should have fought in NY not Nevada.

If I remember correctly, I believe Steve Cruz arrived in Las Vegas earlier and had gotten himself acclaimated to the intense heat alot better than McGuigan did. Of course, it was just as hot for Cruz, but he was better prepared for it. As for McGuigan's win over Bernard Taylor. I believe Taylor quit because his ribs turned out to be broken.

It's very common now to criticize McGuigan as a highly overrated media darling, but the truth is, that while he certainly never reached his full potential, he did have very good boxing skills. Eusebio Pedroza was past his best, but he was still champion and coming off a wide decision win over Jorge Lujan. Barry gave him a one sided beating and took his title. Bernard Taylor was considered by some pundits to have the fastest hands in all of boxing. McGuigan busted him up with bodyshots and made him quit after 8 rounds. And there was also that clear decision win over Juan Laporte, who still had strong performances against Chavez and Azumah Nelson left in him.

good call Seamus McGuigan's bodypunching could be savage. he kept backing Laporte up with long-ish right hands to the body which seemed to sicken him over the duration of the fight.

Controversial wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote: You are a smart guy. The other fellow not so much!

Cruz never lived in 125 F temperature, and I bet that is the only time he boxed in those conditions. I am glad somebody got the point.

Rover wrote: I already had Cruz ahead by 2, so I'm glad he was dropped, as he'd have been denied a deserved win.
And "living in" heat and "fighting in" heat are two different things.
The Taylor example you cited proves the point. It was over 100 in the Taylor ring according to Shenkel--far above the highest recorded temperature ever in Belfast.

I'm not really sure what you two are arguing about. The simple fact is Cruz was more used to the heat than McGuigan, thats all I am saying. Maybe he had fought in hotter or similar conditions, who knows but McGuigan hadn't. The Taylor fight is not comparable, it was at night not in a desert sun in a ring with 72 television lights over it making it even hotter. Taylor quit at the end of round 8, he didn't go 15 rounds so that says more about his lack of heart, lack of training or simply an excuse for losing.

Cruz had fought several times in Las Vegas (a desert) and mostly in Nevada which another very hot state. Anyone one with pale white skin will struggle in the heat, especially when they are not used to it and McGuigan wasn't. If Cruz was saying his dark tanned skin was burning then then McGuigan must have been on fire.

The fact still remains McGuigan was ahead on the scorecards going into the last round, and ahead on most observers cards. It was quite clear he was shattered in the last round, if he was had plenty of energy and was outboxed and later used the excuse the heat was an issue I would agree with you but it is quite clear he was struggling, which is why he was stretchered off and taken to hospital with exhaustion and heat stroke.

So do you both think if they fought in normal conditions Cruz would have still won?

1. Have no idea whether Cruz would've won in "normal" conditions.
2. You claim that Cruz fought in Las Vegas several times and that thus he was used to fighting in heat. Sorry, but merely having fought in Vegas several times tells us nothing about that. For instance, if he fought indoors (at a casino, for instance), heat wouldn't have been an issue.
3. Whether or not the Taylor fight was "at night" is irrelevant. It was over 100 degrees in that ring.
You keep talking about Cruz's being used to the heat, but you've provided nothing to support that except that he lived in Texas. Living in Texas does not amount to being used to 125-degree temperatures while fighting. Neither does "fighting in Las Vegas several times," unless he was fighting in similarly hot conditions on those occasions.

mercman wrote:

Rover wrote:

Sven Tingstrom wrote: You are a smart guy. The other fellow not so much!

Cruz never lived in 125 F temperature, and I bet that is the only time he boxed in those conditions. I am glad somebody got the point.

Well, some people are so dense as to call Cruz "a Mexican" when the argument is based on his being a Texan. There are plenty of white and black Texans.

Don't be cheeky. Manners cost nothing, you know. Steve Cruz is of Mexican descent, like many Texans - and it clearly relevant to point this out in this thread. If anything is dense it is the denial that an Irishman, totally unaccustomed to such heat, would not be disadvantaged when fighting someone more used to such conditions.

There are plenty of non-Mexican Texans. Cruz's being of Mexican dissent is irrelevant.
And I keep hearing this "used to such conditions" nonsense.
When had Cruz fought in 125 degrees? Living in Texas doesn't constitute one's being used to fightting in 125-degree temperatures.

Ezzard wrote:Yes, he definitely retired too early.

LaPorte, Pedroza and Taylor were all world class fighters. Unfortunately Barry had issues outside of the ring. A fight with the ageing Gomez at 130 might have made sense but those out of the ring problems would probably have got to him eventually.

The Cruz fight was amazing. How McGuigan got back into the fight I've no idea. Very sad to see him go in that final round.

Big fights with Nelson, Fenech were on the cards. Would have been classics.

Glad McGuigan/Gomez didn't happen. After the Lockridge "win," Gomez was done, as Alfredo Layne unfortunately showed. Also, Gomez had to fight his mandatory after the Lockridge bout, which he didn't do for approx. a year; we all know what happened, so a Barry fight never would've materialized.

Seamus wrote:If I remember correctly, I believe Steve Cruz arrived in Las Vegas earlier and had gotten himself acclaimated to the intense heat alot better than McGuigan did. Of course, it was just as hot for Cruz, but he was better prepared for it. As for McGuigan's win over Bernard Taylor. I believe Taylor quit because his ribs turned out to be broken.

It's very common now to criticize McGuigan as a highly overrated media darling, but the truth is, that while he certainly never reached his full potential, he did have very good boxing skills. Eusebio Pedroza was past his best, but he was still champion and coming off a wide decision win over Jorge Lujan. Barry gave him a one sided beating and took his title. Bernard Taylor was considered by some pundits to have the fastest hands in all of boxing. McGuigan busted him up with bodyshots and made him quit after 8 rounds. And there was also that clear decision win over Juan Laporte, who still had strong performances against Chavez and Azumah Nelson left in him.

It's fair to say McGuigan had one great year.
He then had the very unimpressive performance against Cabrera.
And Jorge Lujan? Not even a legit feather in spite of his mandatory status. Quality bantam several years beforehand, but not a quality feather. Pedroza also looked rather ordinary in dispatching Angel Mayor in May 84--another absurd WBA mandatory. I think the last of prime Pedroza was Lockridge II.
But I'll give McGuigan credit for a heck of a year in 85. Aside from that, not much else. Azumah would've torn him apart.

How was Cruz "accustomed to the heat" when it has NEVER gotten 125 F in Fort Worth, Texas USA according to USA National Weather Service?

I am Swedish and it is very cold in Sweden sometimes. But I would freeze in the Arctic just as quickly as a Jamaican if we were in the same conditions. Extreme temperatures are extreme to everybody.

mercman wrote:Rover - yes, of course I know there are lots of non-Mexican Texans. Nobody said otherwise. However, the fact is that Cruz is of Mexican descent and that's why it has been raised.

And I (and plenty of other posters on this thread) think it is relevant that he was accustomed to the heat and that McGuigan was not. McGuigan may or may not have won had the fight been in Ireland but it is clear that the heat affected him very badly, much more so than Cruz. It's just the way it was.

1. What does Cruz's being of Mexican dissent have to do with anything? His being from Texas...I understand bringing that up, but the Mexican dissent point is meaningless.
2. You continue to say that Cruz was accustomed to the heat, citing his being from Texas. First, it doesn't often (if ever) get to 125 degrees in Texas. Second, when did Cruz fight in that type of heat before? If not, you can't say he was accustomed to it. I'm accustomed to freezing weather where I live. That doesn't mean I'd be accustomed to fighting at, say, 0 degrees outside.

Sven Tingstrom wrote:How was Cruz "accustomed to the heat" when it has NEVER gotten 125 F in Fort Worth, Texas USA according to USA National Weather Service?

I am Swedish and it is very cold in Sweden sometimes. But I would freeze in the Arctic just as quickly as a Jamaican if we were in the same conditions. Extreme temperatures are extreme to everybody.

Rover wrote:
Whether or not the Taylor fight was "at night" is irrelevant. It was over 100 degrees in that ring. You keep talking about Cruz's being used to the heat, but you've provided nothing to support that except that he lived in Texas. Living in Texas does not amount to being used to 125-degree temperatures while fighting. Neither does "fighting in Las Vegas several times," unless he was fighting in similarly hot conditions on those occasions.

Likewise you cannot prove Cruz never fought in those conditions before. What is known is he lived all his life in a hot place, McGuigan hadn't. The Chief Medical Officer for the BBBC commented at the time that McGuigan had only spent a month in Palm Springs and that wasn't long enough to acclimatise to the heat and said Cruz was used to fighting in those conditions. I guess he knows more than you or I so I will take his word for that.

Similarly someone who doesn't live at altitude would need time to get used to the thinner air, people who live at altitude are used to it, the theory is the same.

Fighting in a hot arena at night for 8 rounds is nowhere close to fighting 15 rounds under a desert sun, with 72 television lights above the ring adding to the heat. Anyone not used to it and exposed to the desert sun with no protection on their skin will suffer, especially someone with pale skin like McGuigan. I am quite naturally tanned and the closest I have come to extreme heat was in Egypt, there was no way on earth I could walk around bare topped without suncream when I was there, even though I can in the UK. In fact I struggled to stay in the sun for more than 15 minutes at a time before having to seek shelter. Yet the locals were fine and didn't wear suncream, they could because they were used to it.

No one is saying Cruz never suffered, the point is living in Texas all his life, (where averages temperatures in Fort Worth are in the 90s in the summer months), and being naturally darker skinned, he is more used hot conditions than an Irishman, and his skin is less likely to burn. It amazes me you fail to acknowledge that.

Controversial wrote:

Rover wrote:
Whether or not the Taylor fight was "at night" is irrelevant. It was over 100 degrees in that ring. You keep talking about Cruz's being used to the heat, but you've provided nothing to support that except that he lived in Texas. Living in Texas does not amount to being used to 125-degree temperatures while fighting. Neither does "fighting in Las Vegas several times," unless he was fighting in similarly hot conditions on those occasions.

Likewise you cannot prove Cruz never fought in those conditions before. What is known is he lived all his life in a hot place, McGuigan hadn't. The Chief Medical Officer for the BBBC commented at the time that McGuigan had only spent a month in Palm Springs and that wasn't long enough to acclimatise to the heat and said Cruz was used to fighting in those conditions. I guess he knows more than you or I so I will take his word for that.

Similarly someone who doesn't live at altitude would need time to get used to the thinner air, people who live at altitude are used to it, the theory is the same.

Fighting in a hot arena at night for 8 rounds is nowhere close to fighting 15 rounds under a desert sun, with 72 television lights above the ring adding to the heat. Anyone not used to it and exposed to the desert sun with no protection on their skin will suffer, especially someone with pale skin like McGuigan. I am quite naturally tanned and the closest I have come to extreme heat was in Egypt, there was no way on earth I could walk around bare topped without suncream when I was there, even though I can in the UK. In fact I struggled to stay in the sun for more than 15 minutes at a time before having to seek shelter. Yet the locals were fine and didn't wear suncream, they could because they were used to it.

No one is saying Cruz never suffered, the point is living in Texas all his life, (where averages temperatures in Fort Worth are in the 90s in the summer months), and being naturally darker skinned, he is more used hot conditions than an Irishman, and his skin is less likely to burn. It amazes me you fail to acknowledge that.

Ha Ha! Yes, the BBBC doctor will be COMPLETELY UNBIASED! Ha Ha!

So, unlike you, I spent the afternoon researching the Cruz career. The McGuigan fight was his FIRST outdoors. He was not accustomed to fighting in the heat any more than McGuigan. Ha Ha!

Living where it is in 90 F and fighting for the first time in 125 F are two different things. It amazes me that you don't understand that. Ha Ha!

Controversial wrote:

Rover wrote:
Whether or not the Taylor fight was "at night" is irrelevant. It was over 100 degrees in that ring. You keep talking about Cruz's being used to the heat, but you've provided nothing to support that except that he lived in Texas. Living in Texas does not amount to being used to 125-degree temperatures while fighting. Neither does "fighting in Las Vegas several times," unless he was fighting in similarly hot conditions on those occasions.

Likewise you cannot prove Cruz never fought in those conditions before. What is known is he lived all his life in a hot place, McGuigan hadn't. The Chief Medical Officer for the BBBC commented at the time that McGuigan had only spent a month in Palm Springs and that wasn't long enough to acclimatise to the heat and said Cruz was used to fighting in those conditions. I guess he knows more than you or I so I will take his word for that.

Similarly someone who doesn't live at altitude would need time to get used to the thinner air, people who live at altitude are used to it, the theory is the same.

Fighting in a hot arena at night for 8 rounds is nowhere close to fighting 15 rounds under a desert sun, with 72 television lights above the ring adding to the heat. Anyone not used to it and exposed to the desert sun with no protection on their skin will suffer, especially someone with pale skin like McGuigan. I am quite naturally tanned and the closest I have come to extreme heat was in Egypt, there was no way on earth I could walk around bare topped without suncream when I was there, even though I can in the UK. In fact I struggled to stay in the sun for more than 15 minutes at a time before having to seek shelter. Yet the locals were fine and didn't wear suncream, they could because they were used to it.

No one is saying Cruz never suffered, the point is living in Texas all his life, (where averages temperatures in Fort Worth are in the 90s in the summer months), and being naturally darker skinned, he is more used hot conditions than an Irishman, and his skin is less likely to burn. It amazes me you fail to acknowledge that.

1. I couldn't care less what a medical correspondent for the BBBC says; homeland bias.
2. You're reduced to the argument that "you can't prove he didn't"? Pathetic form of argumentation. "Living in" (and not 125 degrees, BTW) and "fighting in" are two different things entirely.
3. The 90s? It was 125 in that ring, not in the 90's.
4. As to your comment about "darker" skin: Are you saying that black/hispanic fighters fight better in heat? BTW, that has NOTHING to do with where one lives (skin color).
5. Your altitude analogy is way off. Cruz didn't live in anything close to 125 degree temperatures. Also, if fighters who live at high altitude fight in their hometowns, they clearly have fought at high altitude v. fighting in extreme heat, which can be cured simply by an indoor arena at a normal temperature.