Arturo Gatti

[Rover]

Tysyu was 35 and past it when he fought Hatton. Yet this is by far the win that people talk about the most regarding Hatton's career. That speaks volumes right there.
If Hatton fought Patterson twice,Ward 3x, Dorin, he would not have run the table. Only a disutable loss to Ward in their first fight prevented Gatti from doing that.

Gatti was a good and at times very good fighter. Like Hatton, he wasn't in the class of the really elite fighters.
However, Gatti fought many good fighters throughout his career. Sometimes they were for WBS titles and sometimes they were not. Sometimes he won and sometimes he lost.
Gatti was not a legend or anything like that. However, he does not deserve to be ripped so often. He went out of his way to take on serious competition (sometimes taking on good fighters multiple times). You can't say that about very many fighters in the last couple of decades.

Patterson was a super featherweight; I have no doubt Hatton would've beaten him.
Dorin was a light-punching lightweight; again, no doubt Hatton would've beaten him.
It speaks volumes that you cite these wins involving fighters who accomplished nothing at jr. welter.
And that leaves Ward. Again, I'd pick Hatton with confidence.
There wouldn't need to be three fights; I doubt there'd need to be two. Ricky by clear decision.
Tszyu>Patterson.
Tszyu>Dorin.
Tszyu>Ward.
It isn't even close.
And Tszyu looked very good in his prior fight v. Mitchell. Age is a number; just saying "he was 35" doesn't really say much. And that version of Tszyu was by far better than anyone Gatti ever beat.

Tszyu was way past it when he fought Hatton. That version wasn't better than Patterson, Dorin, Ward. Yes age is a number. Virtually every fighter is worse at the age of 35 than they were in their late 20s. A fighter's reflexes, spped, stamina declines as he gets older. This isn't exactly a new discovery.

And yes Gatti (anywhere near his prime) would have beaten Urango and Luis Collazo. An ancient Shane Mosley beat Collazo easily after Hatton barely beat Collazo.Collazo was a very ordinary fighter.

Again with numbers ("ancient" Mosley). Mosley went on to give Cotto hell and destroy Margarito.
Let's talk about a different number--fights. Patterson had many more than Tszyu.
So you think Dorin would've been equal to the Tszyu that fought Hatton? That Ward would've? That Patterson would've?
Tszyu had looked just fine in his prior fight destroying Mitchell.
I'd love to see if anyone else here thinks that the Tszyu that fought Hatton wasn't better than Ward (who was...35! when he fought Gatti in 2002, BTW), Patterson and Dorin.

[Rover]

That is one woeful post. Mosley had many years left at the top and Collazo was badly injured. Shane and Gatti shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath, that would be another one sided stoppage like Gatti versus any great fighter. You're always pinpointing an exact age like it isn't case by case. That makes you virtually impossible to talk to. Kostya was way better at 35 than Gatti could dream of being at any point in his life.. Arturo isn't capable of competing at that level, Collazo would have kicked his teeth in.

Hey, how old was Ward when he fought Gatti?
:)
And he'd had a lot more wars than Tszyu.

[Rover]

Collazo would've definitely beat Gatti, Gatti never really fought well at Welterweight, in fact his only victory at that weight was Thomas Daamgard who was never anything special anyhow. I think he could outbox Urango, Urango would occasionally give him some shaky moments and possibly drop him late if he could draw Gatti into a slugfest, but if Gatti remembered to keep using his legs, he'd outbox Urango. Urango was a very ordinary fighter, and his power was often exaggerated. Gatti's one of my all time favorite fighters for sentimental reasons, but I'm not delusional about his skill level.

I do think Gatti would have slugged it out with Urango; that would've been a fun fight.

[IRLangmaid25]

All four of those fights would be utterly compelling to watch for one reason another. However Gatti would cope an utter beating from Miguel Cotto at 140lb as Cotto was coming through at that weight and he was an utter beast at that weight. Katsidis would be utter brutuality from the first bell as they are both tough come forward fighters with all lot of whack in their punches but I can just Gatti wanting that little bit more and stopping Katsidis in the mid to later rounds. As for figthing Ricky Hatton, Hatton was a relentless pressure fighter who can back an opponent up and would bullrush Gatti but would struggle to take Gatti as Gatti's footwork might dig him out of trouble (if he bothers to use it) as Hatton could be quite flat footed at times. As for Castillo and Corales they would be right to the wire thrillers.

[Seamus]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

[Rover]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

Prime Ward wasn't that good. I will say, though, that Ward had been rejuvinated during his comeback after that three-year layoff. I and those who agree with me in this thread aren't denegrating Gatti in terms of the excitement he brought or Gatti/Ward (though the last two fights didn't come close to the first one). We're just trying to reign in the revisionist history illustrated by comments like the one saying Patterson, Dorin and Ward were equal to the Tszyu Hatton stopped.

[Ambling Alp II]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

You're in some fantasy world. Truly great? Carlos baldomir & Alfonso Gomez destroyed Gatti at Welterweight. Angel Mafredy massacred him at Lightweight.

Collazo/Hatton was an excellent fight, Luis wasn't great but Gatti would have no chance at all against him. The only one desperate, is you

Why not get specific? Which of Gatti's opponents are going give Hatton the same record? Certainly none of the undersized Jr. Lightweights. Obviously Floyd & Oscar would beat him. Ward would have a chance of stopping him with a body shot at least one out of three. Where are the rest of them?

[Rover]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

So we should judge a Gatti/Hatton fight based on how he did v. Patterson at super feather?

And Gatti v. Ward I was a great fight. The other two weren't, especially II.
And Manfredy was handling Gatti well and beating him clearly.

[Rover]

After Gatti's trilogy against faded Micky Ward, his abilities were elevated (in the eyes of many of his fans) to thoroughly unrealistic proportions.

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

You're in some fantasy world. Truly great? Carlos baldomir & Alfonso Gomez destroyed Gatti at Welterweight. Angel Mafredy massacred him at Lightweight.

Collazo/Hatton was an excellent fight, Luis wasn't great but Gatti would have no chance at all against him. The only one desperate, is you

Why not get specific? Which of Gatti's opponents are going give Hatton the same record? Certainly none of the undersized Jr. Lightweights. Obviously Floyd & Oscar would beat him. Ward would have a chance of stopping him with a body shot at least one out of three. Where are the rest of them?

I don't even give Ward much of a chance v. Hatton.
And my question still remains unanswered by Ambling Alp:
What win does Gatti have equivalent to Tszyu?
I mean, Dorin, Ward and Patterson--any of them greater than or equal to Tszyu?
Saying that is laughable.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

You're in some fantasy world. Truly great? Carlos baldomir & Alfonso Gomez destroyed Gatti at Welterweight. Angel Mafredy massacred him at Lightweight.

Collazo/Hatton was an excellent fight, Luis wasn't great but Gatti would have no chance at all against him. The only one desperate, is you

Why not get specific? Which of Gatti's opponents are going give Hatton the same record? Certainly none of the undersized Jr. Lightweights. Obviously Floyd & Oscar would beat him. Ward would have a chance of stopping him with a body shot at least one out of three. Where are the rest of them?

I don't even give Ward much of a chance v. Hatton.
And my question still remains unanswered by Ambling Alp:
What win does Gatti have equivalent to Tszyu?
I mean, Dorin, Ward and Patterson--any of them greater than or equal to Tszyu?
Saying that is laughable.

Alp is on one of his tangents. Knowledgeable guy, but when he gets going there is no talking to him. His vivid imagination will certainly invent all kinds of things to support his case.

[Ambling Alp II]

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.[/quote]

You're in some fantasy world. Truly great? Carlos baldomir & Alfonso Gomez destroyed Gatti at Welterweight. Angel Mafredy massacred him at Lightweight.

Collazo/Hatton was an excellent fight, Luis wasn't great but Gatti would have no chance at all against him. The only one desperate, is you

Why not get specific? Which of Gatti's opponents are going give Hatton the same record? Certainly none of the undersized Jr. Lightweights. Obviously Floyd & Oscar would beat him. Ward would have a chance of stopping him with a body shot at least one out of three. Where are the rest of them?[/quote]
I don't even give Ward much of a chance v. Hatton.
And my question still remains unanswered by Ambling Alp:
What win does Gatti have equivalent to Tszyu?
I mean, Dorin, Ward and Patterson--any of them greater than or equal to Tszyu?
Saying that is laughable.[/quote]

Sorry you think that is laughable. I don't. I am saying saying those wins were at least the equal of the version of Tyszyu that Hatton fought.You have to look at the stage of a fighter's career. I find it laughable that people apparently think Tszyu was at his best against Hatton. Tszyu was 35 and past his best. Age is not a just a number. Reflexes, speed, stamina etc. decrease as you get older. If age is just a number we would have fighters being at their best in their 70s.

Gatti was way past it when he foguth Gomez and Baldimir. He was getting older and had taken a lot of punishment in his career. Ridiculaus that you even bring thme up.

If you are going to ingore age and circumstances than you are setting up ridicualus scenarios. Wasd it a big win for Joey Archer over Ray Robinson? Of course not. Was it a big win for Leotis Martin over Sonny Liston? Of course. Most of us could come up with dozens of examples like this.

As for Gatti's opponents, and who would beat them I am assuming that Hatton would fight them at the same weight class as Gatti did. No I don't think a 130-135 pound opponent that Gatti fought would beat a 140-147 pound Hatton.
If you think Ward could take one out of three with a body shot vs Hatton, that says a lot. Ward could not do thast against Gatti in three fights. Gatti was 2-1 against a very deternined Ward and he very easily could have got the decision in their first fight.

You also have to look at a fighter's whole career, not just one fight. Gatti's overall competition was much tougher than Hatton's.

[Rover]

I don't know about that. I certainly don't think it makes Gatti a legend or anything. But they were all 3 great fights. Only a truly great fighter would have destroyed Gatti and Hatton certainly doesn't fit that bill.

I just don't see how people can watch Hatton-Tyszy fight and then watch the Gatti-Ward fights or the Gatti-Patterson fights and come to the conclusion that Hatton would have destroyed Gatti. People are so desperate for a good Hatton win that the Collazo win is mentioned. That was a bad fight and Hatton looked like crap.

You're in some fantasy world. Truly great? Carlos baldomir & Alfonso Gomez destroyed Gatti at Welterweight. Angel Mafredy massacred him at Lightweight.

Collazo/Hatton was an excellent fight, Luis wasn't great but Gatti would have no chance at all against him. The only one desperate, is you

Why not get specific? Which of Gatti's opponents are going give Hatton the same record? Certainly none of the undersized Jr. Lightweights. Obviously Floyd & Oscar would beat him. Ward would have a chance of stopping him with a body shot at least one out of three. Where are the rest of them?[/quote]
I don't even give Ward much of a chance v. Hatton.
And my question still remains unanswered by Ambling Alp:
What win does Gatti have equivalent to Tszyu?
I mean, Dorin, Ward and Patterson--any of them greater than or equal to Tszyu?
Saying that is laughable.[/quote]

Sorry you think that is laughable. I don't. I am saying saying those wins were at least the equal of the version of Tyszyu that Hatton fought.You have to look at the stage of a fighter's career. I find it laughable that people apparently think Tszyu was at his best against Hatton. Tszyu was 35 and past his best. Age is not a just a number. Reflexes, speed, stamina etc. decrease as you get older. If age is just a number we would have fighters being at their best in their 70s.

Gatti was way past it when he foguth Gomez and Baldimir. He was getting older and had taken a lot of punishment in his career. Ridiculaus that you even bring thme up.

If you are going to ingore age and circumstances than you are setting up ridicualus scenarios. Wasd it a big win for Joey Archer over Ray Robinson? Of course not. Was it a big win for Leotis Martin over Sonny Liston? Of course. Most of us could come up with dozens of examples like this.

As for Gatti's opponents, and who would beat them I am assuming that Hatton would fight them at the same weight class as Gatti did. No I don't think a 130-135 pound opponent that Gatti fought would beat a 140-147 pound Hatton.
If you think Ward could take one out of three with a body shot vs Hatton, that says a lot. Ward could not do thast against Gatti in three fights. Gatti was 2-1 against a very deternined Ward and he very easily could have got the decision in their first fight.

You also have to look at a fighter's whole career, not just one fight. Gatti's overall competition was much tougher than Hatton's.[/quote]
Not the guys Gatti beat.
And how old was Ward when Gatti fought him? How about Dorin?
What did Dorin ever do at jr. welter?
And Angel Manfredy wasn't a great fighter.
Neither was Baldomir.
They destroyed Gatti.

[Ambling Alp II]

Ward was old.Gatti certainly had an advantage there. However, I would argue that Ward fought much better vs Gatti than Tzsyu did vs Hatton. Gatti stopped Dorin two rounds. A lot of the Gatti hater thought he would lose that fight. I think that has to count for something.

Think we have gone round and round on this. If you want to throw out Dorin and Ward fine. Then throw Hatton's win over Tszu. Then what are left with?
Then what are you left with? Collazo? Hatton looked like crap in that fight and was easily could have lost a decison to a a mediocre fighter. Much worse than Manfredy.

If you want to count everything regardless of a fighter's state in his career. fine. Then count Gatti's wins over Calvin Grove, Ruelas, and Leija. And count Hatton's last fight.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I

Sorry you think that is laughable. I don't. I am saying saying those wins were at least the equal of the version of Tyszyu that Hatton fought.You have to look at the stage of a fighter's career. I find it laughable that people apparently think Tszyu was at his best against Hatton. Tszyu was 35 and past his best. Age is not a just a number. Reflexes, speed, stamina etc. decrease as you get older. If age is just a number we would have fighters being at their best in their 70s.

Gatti was way past it when he foguth Gomez and Baldimir. He was getting older and had taken a lot of punishment in his career. Ridiculaus that you even bring thme up.

If you are going to ingore age and circumstances than you are setting up ridicualus scenarios. Wasd it a big win for Joey Archer over Ray Robinson? Of course not. Was it a big win for Leotis Martin over Sonny Liston? Of course. Most of us could come up with dozens of examples like this.

As for Gatti's opponents, and who would beat them I am assuming that Hatton would fight them at the same weight class as Gatti did. No I don't think a 130-135 pound opponent that Gatti fought would beat a 140-147 pound Hatton.
If you think Ward could take one out of three with a body shot vs Hatton, that says a lot. Ward could not do thast against Gatti in three fights. Gatti was 2-1 against a very deternined Ward and he very easily could have got the decision in their first fight.

You also have to look at a fighter's whole career, not just one fight. Gatti's overall competition was much tougher than Hatton's.

LOL that anyone said Tszyu was at his best. Care to quote that for me?

I didn't bring up Baldomir & Gomez, you did when you said Gatti could only be dismantled by great fighters and that Hatton would have the same record against Arturo's opposition.

Why in the world would Hatton fight at 130 pounds?

Gatti was more durable to the body than Hatton is, it's unlikely, but possible. Guys like Ivan Robinson & Angel Manfredy that whipped Gatti at his best would get beat down by Hatton.

What is really ridiculous is your spelling of ridiculous. I hope you're hammered.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Ward was old.Gatti certainly had an advantage there. However, I would argue that Ward fought much better vs Gatti than Tzsyu did vs Hatton. Gatti stopped Dorin two rounds. A lot of the Gatti hater thought he would lose that fight. I think that has to count for something.

Think we have gone round and round on this. If you want to throw out Dorin and Ward fine. Then throw Hatton's win over Tszu. Then what are left with?
Then what are you left with? Collazo? Hatton looked like crap in that fight and was easily could have lost a decison to a a mediocre fighter. Much worse than Manfredy.

If you want to count everything regardless of a fighter's state in his career. fine. Then count Gatti's wins over Calvin Grove, Ruelas, and Leija. And count Hatton's last fight.

Wow, another horrid post. You'll say anything to support your absurd claims. Throw out Tszyu?

[Rover]

Ward was old.Gatti certainly had an advantage there. However, I would argue that Ward fought much better vs Gatti than Tzsyu did vs Hatton. Gatti stopped Dorin two rounds. A lot of the Gatti hater thought he would lose that fight. I think that has to count for something.

Think we have gone round and round on this. If you want to throw out Dorin and Ward fine. Then throw Hatton's win over Tszu. Then what are left with?
Then what are you left with? Collazo? Hatton looked like crap in that fight and was easily could have lost a decison to a a mediocre fighter. Much worse than Manfredy.

If you want to count everything regardless of a fighter's state in his career. fine. Then count Gatti's wins over Calvin Grove, Ruelas, and Leija. And count Hatton's last fight.

I didn't count Gomez. Gatti never had three years off.
You brought up age; I'm just playing your game.
Ward was older than Tszyu.
Gatti was the same age v. Baldomir as Dorin was v. Gatti.
And no, I don't think it's a win equal to Tszyu when the guy hasn't accomplished anything of note in the division.
And how old was Leija when he fought Gatti?
Hey, you brought up the age thing.
As for Hatton/Collazo, Hatton didn't look like crap. The fight was about as close as Berto/Collazo.
Collazo was a top-ten welterweight. Manfredy was a top-ten super featherweight.

[Rover]

Ward was old.Gatti certainly had an advantage there. However, I would argue that Ward fought much better vs Gatti than Tzsyu did vs Hatton. Gatti stopped Dorin two rounds. A lot of the Gatti hater thought he would lose that fight. I think that has to count for something.

Think we have gone round and round on this. If you want to throw out Dorin and Ward fine. Then throw Hatton's win over Tszu. Then what are left with?
Then what are you left with? Collazo? Hatton looked like crap in that fight and was easily could have lost a decison to a a mediocre fighter. Much worse than Manfredy.

If you want to count everything regardless of a fighter's state in his career. fine. Then count Gatti's wins over Calvin Grove, Ruelas, and Leija. And count Hatton's last fight.

Wow, another horrid post. You'll say anything to support your absurd claims. Throw out Tszyu?

Age only counts sometimes.:)
Tszyu had looked good his prior fight. The version of Tszyu whom Hatton beat was a better jr. welter than Ward or Dorin.
And if we're talking about "primes," Patterson's was at super bantam.
Prime Gatti got destroyed by Manfredy; that got gruesome.
Prime Gatti also clearly lost twice to Ivan Robinson.
Prime Hatton lost to Floyd and Manny.
I didn't even count Gomez in my analysis. I figured that since 35 was an unacceptable age (except for Ward), but 34 was, Baldomir should be counted. And Gatti didn't fight him coming off of a 3.5-year layoff.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Throwing out Tszyu for Hatton would be like throwing out Hagler for Leonard. Kostya was coming off arguably his best performance.

[Rover]

Throwing out Tszyu for Hatton would be like throwing out Hagler for Leonard. Kostya was coming off arguably his best performance.

Exactly. Tszyu>Ward, Dorin and Patterson clearly.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

He was clearly better than anyone Gatti ever beat, it's bizarre that anyone would claim he wasn't.

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes Rover, exactly. Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler is like throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu. Obviously Tszyu was as good as Marvin Hagler.

Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler would hurt his credibility just as much as throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu would hurt his credibility. Obviously.

Obviously Hatton has three other wins that can compare to Leonard's wins over Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. I'm sure you can come up three comparable wins for Hatton without any problem. There are so many phenomenal fighters that he beat.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Yes Rover, exactly. Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler is like throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu. Obviously Tszyu was as good as Marvin Hagler.

Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler would hurt his credibility just as much as throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu would hurt his credibility. Obviously.

Obviously Hatton has three other wins that can compare to Leonard's wins over Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. I'm sure you can come up three comparable wins for Hatton without any problem. There are so many phenomenal fighters that he beat.

This is what I'm talking about, you constantly make shit up that was never said when you're on the wrong side of an argument.

The good part about it is that you should now see how ridiculous trying to toss out Ricky's win is. Kostya and Marvin were both legit champions past their best, but far from shot and the wins were great ones. Obviously Leonard & Hagler fought at a higher level, the analogy still holds true. But go ahead and make up whatever new argument you need to get away from your embarrassing performance in here. Seriously, some of the worst shit I've ever read in this forum.

[Rover]

Yes Rover, exactly. Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler is like throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu. Obviously Tszyu was as good as Marvin Hagler.

Throwing out Leonard's win over Hagler would hurt his credibility just as much as throwing out Hatton's win over Tyszu would hurt his credibility. Obviously.

Obviously Hatton has three other wins that can compare to Leonard's wins over Benitez, Duran, and Hearns. I'm sure you can come up three comparable wins for Hatton without any problem. There are so many phenomenal fighters that he beat.

This is what I'm talking about, you constantly make shit up that was never said when you're on the wrong side of an argument.

The good part about it is that you should now see how ridiculous trying to toss out Ricky's win is. Kostya and Marvin were both legit champions past their best, but far from shot and the wins were great ones. Obviously Leonard & Hagler fought at a higher level, the analogy still holds true. But go ahead and make up whatever new argument you need to get away from your embarrassing performance in here. Seriously, some of the worst shit I've ever read in this forum.

The analogy is pretty simple to grasp.
This isn't nearly as bad as frankenfrank where I had to read things multiple times just to figure out what the hell he was saying.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I can promise you that you'll never read Alp say Ali's wins over the "ancient" Liston were useless.