BoxRec

Vitali developed a boxing style which was ideal for his frame. The fact that it deviates from the standard training manual made him harder to fathom and ultimately has been one of keys to his success. Look at the way he lets his left hand lead hang low and towards his opponent. It leaves him in closer striking distance so if his shorter opponent lunges at him with a right-hander he sticks him with that left and simply sways his head out of range. Stature makes styles.

Dixonian wrote:Vitali developed a boxing style which was ideal for his frame. The fact that it deviates from the standard training manual made him harder to fathom and ultimately has been one of keys to his success. Look at the way he lets his left hand lead hang low and towards his opponent. It leaves him in closer striking distance so if his shorter opponent lunges at him with a right-hander he sticks him with that left and simply sways his head out of range. Stature makes styles.

I'm answering crusader here (& to an extent JLP) but I'm quoting this post because I totally agree with it & acknowledge that his hideous splay-legged stance allows him to take advantage of his enormo-gangly limbs, vast stature & great legs.

However, he has been blessed in that he's hardly ever fought an athletic fella over 6'3" who wasn't old & fvcked. I believe the Lewis & Sanders fights showed that even these fat, old versions of once athletic, big (but not Vitali-supersize big) lads exposed the massive flaws in his gangle-gangle arm-punching style. Vitali was lucky in both fights that he was facing old fat men who he could (at least try to, in Lenny's case) out-fit as it were.

Hence it is my contention that a dude around Sanders height (6'3" plus, say) at their athletic peak, with great natural boxing skills & a good engine would school the ever-living fvck out of him & find him way easier to tag than the collection of fat midgets he's feasted upon. The way fat old Sanders managed to get to him in the first couple of rounds, the way Lenny managed to tee off on him at times (& his successes there lead me to envisage a fit, thirty-one year old Lenny having the stamina to stay behind the jab & outbox him, occasionally putting him in place with flurries of power punches & judicious mauling on the inside).

So. Just to clear it up one last time (I've said this a million times before, though): best of his era? Probably. Big fit strong awkward lad? Definitely. A handful based on that for all but the very best with the tools & size to do him? Most definitely.

Would the very best (& in my opinion a few of the near-misses they bested) equipped with those tools beat him on their nights? Every day of the week & twice on Sundays.

Does Datsue only adopt this defensive position on the Internet as a knee-jerk reaction to the Klit fanboys' talk of his being an ATG, to the pontification on him having the best chin of all time (see the thread this week onthe Current Scene), the rhapsodising about his punching power based on his fvcking knockout percentage (as if that stupid fvcking piece of shit pulled out of the arse of a cable-TV statistician raised on baseball meant anything in boxing, where you can fvcking see how hard someone hits--or at least gauge his punch by its effects on proven quality opposition; rendered even more laughable by his technical flaws, which is what I'm posting about in this thread, really, which mean he was always forever doomed to be a monstrously strong but flicking body-weight impact-lacking arm-puncher*), even his fvcking piece-of-shit PR image nice guy persona cult of personality?

Yes. Yes Datsue fvcking does. Sorry. Can't help it. Pray forgive me my intrusion into this thread, which was obviously merely a gleeful excuse for you lot to go "Ah well, see it took a kick to KO him" & everyone else to point & laugh & go "HAHAHAHAHAHA! Thigh kick! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! pudendum!"

As I chose to do neither of those options & instead go off on a related tangent I apologise profusely. However, as no-one seems to ever acknowledge any of this on the pro-Klit side of this discussion, forgive me for my broken record impression yet again.

Please, all of you now say "Ah but he's the best of his era anyway, ner-ner-nerrrh-nerrrrrh-nerrrrrrhhh!" & of course, I've always said he fvcking is. I've got eyes. You've got eyes. Look at his era.

Enough. I'm off.


*: crusader, that sentence is for you. It is my contention that had a proper boxing trainer got to Vitali straight out of kickboxing & kicked his arse, he might've learned to box--& therefore punch--properly.

Wlad did. I know biomechanics play a huge role, but imagine Vitali (chin, heart, will, steroids, er I mean massive slow-burn athletic prowess at his peak) with say, 75% of his brother's power (which of course comes from genetics & his stance, because Wlad learned to fvcking box properly).

That there, my friend, is the mythical ATG-pasting Vitali of which his fans speak when they enter into discussions regarding his all-time status. The one who learned to box properly & knocked a fat old Lennox Lewis out in three rounds.

The one that doesn't exist--fvcking well has never existed-- in this version of consensus reality.

Oh yeah:

"HAHAHAHAHAHA! Thigh kick! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! pudendum!"

There.

I agree with a lot of that. It's a real shame that the opponent you describe (the athletic, technically gifted 6,3+ heavy) was not in existence during his reign then we would have had some exciting heavyweight action. But. People can't use this Pele Reid knockout as proof that his punch resistance wasn't so great. That's a young skinny Vitali there. And it's kickboxing.

I would also contend that the young Vitali had greater impact in his punches which came almost entirely from timing and handspeed. No, not one of the hardest hitters of all time but still a very dangerous puncher at his best.

Dixonian wrote:I agree with a lot of that. It's a real shame that the opponent you describe (the athletic, technically gifted 6,3+ heavy) was not in existence during his reign then we would have had some exciting heavyweight action. But. People can't use this Pele Reid knockout as proof that his punch resistance wasn't so great. That's a young skinny Vitali there. And it's kickboxing.

I would also contend that the young Vitali had greater impact in his punches which came almost entirely from timing and handspeed. No, not one of the hardest hitters of all time but still a very dangerous puncher at his best.

I concur with the chin thing; he's not Oliver McCall but he's got a very solid beard, deffo.

Datsue wrote:

Dixonian wrote:I agree with a lot of that. It's a real shame that the opponent you describe (the athletic, technically gifted 6,3+ heavy) was not in existence during his reign then we would have had some exciting heavyweight action. But. People can't use this Pele Reid knockout as proof that his punch resistance wasn't so great. That's a young skinny Vitali there. And it's kickboxing.

I would also contend that the young Vitali had greater impact in his punches which came almost entirely from timing and handspeed. No, not one of the hardest hitters of all time but still a very dangerous puncher at his best.

I concur with the chin thing; he's not Oliver McCall but he's got a very solid beard, deffo.

He soaked up plenty of Lennox's bombs without being dropped.

Wow that's great to see, heard about this legendary Pele Reid KO for a long time, and began to wonder if it was really true. He'll be telling people about that KO for the rest of his years.
Vitali definitely has a great chin, and getting kicked in the jaw by a heavyweight doesn't really apply to boxing at all.

Did he say it was a thigh kick then ?

And why has the video taken so long to surface ..

For all we know, Vitali may never have seen that video. He may also have been unaware (and may still be unaware) that the fight was filmed and that there is surviving footage. I had fights that I've never seen footage of, so I don't see why Vitali, or any other fighter, shouldn't be in the same boat. He might be pleased to see it because he certainly didn't see the kick coming at the time. Pele was a really explosive guy, there'd not be many who could keep the lights on if a clean shot like that landed flush.

Datsue wrote:Oh yeah:

"HAHAHAHAHAHA! Thigh kick! AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! pudendum!"

There.

A fuckin thigh kick !!

Beautiful knockout. I've heard about this for years and its great to finally see it [although the op link is now dead].


On another note why do people still bang on about Lewis-Vitali ? His eye was on the way to being destroyed from the damage Lennox did. Its kind of obvious who won, this was a fight you know not a "who was ahead on the scorecards" deal. If that had gone 12 like many seem to want, Vitali's might have never recovered from the damage.

Orionx wrote:Beautiful knockout. I've heard about this for years and its great to finally see it [although the op link is now dead].


On another note why do people still bang on about Lewis-Vitali ? His eye was on the way to being destroyed from the damage Lennox did. Its kind of obvious who won, this was a fight you know not a "who was ahead on the scorecards" deal. If that had gone 12 like many seem to want, Vitali's might have never recovered from the damage.

He'd be on the unlicensed circuit with Danny Williams, billed as Vitali The Pirate!

Here's a little article I wrote for Saddo Boxing back in 2006 regarding Pele Reid's comeback. Always liked the guy;

http://www.saddoboxing.com/3577-boxing- ... -reid.html

JLP wrote:For all we know, Vitali may never have seen that video. He may also have been unaware (and may still be unaware) that the fight was filmed and that there is surviving footage. I had fights that I've never seen footage of, so I don't see why Vitali, or any other fighter, shouldn't be in the same boat. He might be pleased to see it because he certainly didn't see the kick coming at the time. Pele was a really explosive guy, there'd not be many who could keep the lights on if a clean shot like that landed flush.

Ye-e-es, it's perfectly reasonable that it destroyed so many brain cells it annihilated the memory of the knockout blow.

Or he's a lying slimy pudendum, the type of bloke who'd get in someone's face & try to attack them after they beat his brother, & pull some sort of one-note bullshit bully intimidation tactic at the drop of a hat like a giant spoiled child, & when faced with a similar level of intimidation bitches & whines.

I think we're completely opposed on the character of the man, JLP. If he came to the ring emblazoned in a swastika you'd come out with something about ancient Sanskrit luck symbols; if (when?) he assumes power in the Ukraine & has all the Roma rounded up & then annexed Lithuania, you'd probably tell me he was a strong leader who just loved his people.

I really don't mind & certainly won't try to change your opinion. I just don't like dishonest intellectual squirming. The man comes across as a complete pudendum, albeit a complete pudendum with a natty line in processed camera-friendly PR. If that gets him marks with you, then good. I'm happy for you. Pray continue.

Datsue wrote:

JLP wrote:For all we know, Vitali may never have seen that video. He may also have been unaware (and may still be unaware) that the fight was filmed and that there is surviving footage. I had fights that I've never seen footage of, so I don't see why Vitali, or any other fighter, shouldn't be in the same boat. He might be pleased to see it because he certainly didn't see the kick coming at the time. Pele was a really explosive guy, there'd not be many who could keep the lights on if a clean shot like that landed flush.

Ye-e-es, it's perfectly reasonable that it destroyed so many brain cells it annihilated the memory of the knockout blow.

Or he's a lying slimy pudendum, the type of bloke who'd get in someone's face & try to attack them after they beat his brother, & pull some sort of one-note bullshit bully intimidation tactic at the drop of a hat like a giant spoiled child, & when faced with a similar level of intimidation bitches & whines.

I think we're completely opposed on the character of the man, JLP. If he came to the ring emblazoned in a swastika you'd come out with something about ancient Sanskrit luck symbols; if (when?) he assumes power in the Ukraine & has all the Roma rounded up & then annexed Lithuania, you'd probably tell me he was a strong leader who just loved his people.

I really don't mind & certainly won't try to change your opinion. I just don't like dishonest intellectual squirming. The man comes across as a complete pudendum, albeit a complete pudendum with a natty line in processed camera-friendly PR. If that gets him marks with you, then good. I'm happy for you. Pray continue.

Paragraph 1. He knows he got knocked out by Pele Reid. All I'm saying is that he may well have never watched the fight back and he definitely didn't see the shot coming.

Paragraph 2. He's loyal to his family, which is admirable. He defends his personal interests, which is natural.

Paragraph 3. His ancestors were full on Nazi slayers. I doubt he'd ever wear a swastika. If he secures political power in the Ukraine, he'll naturally continue to look out for his personal interests, and the interests of his family; and remember, as a son of Ukraine, all the Ukranian people are his family.

Paragraph 4. No problem.

JLP wrote:
Paragraph 3. His ancestors were full on Nazi slayers. I doubt he'd ever wear a swastika. If he secures political power in the Ukraine, he'll naturally continue to look out for his personal interests, and the interests of his family; and remember, as a son of Ukraine, all the Ukranian people are his family.

Just an aside, but his bro is happy to wear Hugo Boss on his shorts. Which--as someone with an admittedly knee-jerk reaction to those who abetted the systematic slaying of my relatives--is somewhat incongruous. But whatevs.

Nice to talk to you again.

Datsue wrote:

JLP wrote:For all we know, Vitali may never have seen that video. He may also have been unaware (and may still be unaware) that the fight was filmed and that there is surviving footage. I had fights that I've never seen footage of, so I don't see why Vitali, or any other fighter, shouldn't be in the same boat. He might be pleased to see it because he certainly didn't see the kick coming at the time. Pele was a really explosive guy, there'd not be many who could keep the lights on if a clean shot like that landed flush.

Ye-e-es, it's perfectly reasonable that it destroyed so many brain cells it annihilated the memory of the knockout blow.

Or he's a lying slimy pudendum, the type of bloke who'd get in someone's face & try to attack them after they beat his brother, & pull some sort of one-note bullshit bully intimidation tactic at the drop of a hat like a giant spoiled child, & when faced with a similar level of intimidation bitches & whines.

I think we're completely opposed on the character of the man, JLP. If he came to the ring emblazoned in a swastika you'd come out with something about ancient Sanskrit luck symbols; if (when?) he assumes power in the Ukraine & has all the Roma rounded up & then annexed Lithuania, you'd probably tell me he was a strong leader who just loved his people.

I really don't mind & certainly won't try to change your opinion. I just don't like dishonest intellectual squirming. The man comes across as a complete pudendum, albeit a complete pudendum with a natty line in processed camera-friendly PR. If that gets him marks with you, then good. I'm happy for you. Pray continue.

Fat Git likes this.

Datsue wrote:

JLP wrote:
Paragraph 3. His ancestors were full on Nazi slayers. I doubt he'd ever wear a swastika. If he secures political power in the Ukraine, he'll naturally continue to look out for his personal interests, and the interests of his family; and remember, as a son of Ukraine, all the Ukranian people are his family.

Just an aside, but his bro is happy to wear Hugo Boss on his shorts. Which--as someone with an admittedly knee-jerk reaction to those who abetted the systematic slaying of my relatives--is somewhat incongruous. But whatevs.

Nice to talk to you again.

It's an olive branch gesture. It's got nothing to do with sponsorship money. The Soviets and the Germans were sworn enemies, many a young Ukranian died at the hands of those clothed in the threads of Boss but rather than continue to hold that against the Germans 70 years on, the Klitschkos have reached out. A symbolic gesture as significant as Mandela's walk to freedom or the sledgehammers cracking the Berlin Wall.

I agree that his punching technique could be changed so that it results in a sum improvement for him. I also agree that when his power is analyzed the nature of his stoppages is often ignored in favor of a superficial statistic, leading to a superficial conclusion based on a factors that impact that statistic other than his power, such as the number of punches he landed and the quality of his opposition; this in turn leads to an inflation how much power he has. I don't, however, think the use of this flawed analysis is limited to Klitschko fans or tends to be used disingenuously to bolster claims that Vitali is a very hard puncher; I've seen it used in a number of disparate cases and by people who haven't expressed favorability to the fighter in question, but who have expressed favorability to other fighters, suggesting that their opinion isn't dictated by bias toward the former. I think this flawed reasoning generally represents the misconception that a knockout is an instantiation of power, so a fighter with a high knockout percentage must have a high degree of power.

For me, there isn't one general mode or manifestation of proper boxing. These vary by fighter, as attributes vary by fighter, and how an attribute--whether a strength or a weakness--should be incorporated into or affect one's mode of boxing depends on the particular attribute or the confluence of attributes in question. What is proper is what usually works comparatively well for the boxer, and I think it's a mistake to think otherwise. If a glass-jawed fighter could box more effectively by throwing arm punches than by committing to each punch, would we say that they’re not boxing properly if they employ the former method? I wouldn't.

While Vitali's punching technique isn't optimal, it shouldn't be the only factor or the main factor considered when deciding if he learned to box properly, and he does other things sufficiently for me to conclude that he has learned to box in a way that is conducive to his success. He controls distance well, generally keeping enough space between him and his opponent so that there are more opportunities for him to land than for his opponent to land. Although his height enables him to exploit distance as such, it isn't sufficient for doing so, as there are many fighters who typically enjoy height advantages who don't typically control distance effectively. He also has good head movement that he uses regularly, making it difficult for his opponents to land head punches even when they are in striking range. These strengths, which don't involve a larger or significantly larger innate component than good punching technique does, indicate that Vitali has mastered fundamental boxing skills that do not follow immediately from his height and regularly uses them to his advantage. To say that he has never learned to box properly is thus a very large stretch in my opinion, and requires focusing only on certain domains while ignoring other relevant domains.

Yes, it is true that Vitali—like countless other fighters—is overrated by many people who try to excuse instances that hurt his reputation; the excuse that perturbs me the most is that Vitali didn't lose to Lewis because he was ahead when the bout ended. However, many people complaining about that trend provide a countervailing response that is no more reasonable, no more justified, and no more conducive to good debate or discussion. Maybe Vitali isn’t a wonderfully nice guy, but an emotional reaction to his brother's knockout loss, an excuse made about a loss, or an attempt to intimidate a competitor hardly suggests that he is a slimy cu-nt; maybe Vitali doesn't have great boxing skills, but his arm-punches hardly suggest that he never learned to box properly. In each case, extreme characteristics are inferred from instances that don't tend to reflect those characteristics, and whether the inferences reflect favorably or unfavorably on Vitali doesn't bear on whether one set of inferences is superior to the other.

Datsue wrote:

JLP wrote:For all we know, Vitali may never have seen that video. He may also have been unaware (and may still be unaware) that the fight was filmed and that there is surviving footage. I had fights that I've never seen footage of, so I don't see why Vitali, or any other fighter, shouldn't be in the same boat. He might be pleased to see it because he certainly didn't see the kick coming at the time. Pele was a really explosive guy, there'd not be many who could keep the lights on if a clean shot like that landed flush.

Ye-e-es, it's perfectly reasonable that it destroyed so many brain cells it annihilated the memory of the knockout blow.

Or he's a lying slimy pudendum, the type of bloke who'd get in someone's face & try to attack them after they beat his brother, & pull some sort of one-note bullshit bully intimidation tactic at the drop of a hat like a giant spoiled child, & when faced with a similar level of intimidation bitches & whines.

I think we're completely opposed on the character of the man, JLP. If he came to the ring emblazoned in a swastika you'd come out with something about ancient Sanskrit luck symbols; if (when?) he assumes power in the Ukraine & has all the Roma rounded up & then annexed Lithuania, you'd probably tell me he was a strong leader who just loved his people.

I really don't mind & certainly won't try to change your opinion. I just don't like dishonest intellectual squirming. The man comes across as a complete pudendum, albeit a complete pudendum with a natty line in processed camera-friendly PR. If that gets him marks with you, then good. I'm happy for you. Pray continue.

Of course, he's a politician, politician = gangster