The Brothers K v the 1990s

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Style wise Vitali's arm punching with a lack of variety would probably lead to him eating nasty overhand rights and getting flat abused on the inside. He was lighter on his feet than Riddick, that's the only edge I could give him.

[Ezzard]

I think Vitali has a real chance against Bowe. Style-wise I think it's an interesting fight.

Me too.

nah
a chance
but less than 50/50 with a 90s Bowe in his prime, verses Dr IronSchmidt. Riddick would break his heart and thuds outs a late stoppage/retirement.

But I'm just an eighties/nineties fanboy

like you say style wise

The problem for me is I remember those 1980s heavyweights…they all have 1 stand out performance we can trot out, but for the most part they were lazy and inconsistent…with a truck full of excuses.

The Klits would have been blue ribbon fighters in the 1980s. And Klit victims like Sam Peter, Chris Byrd, David Haye, Solis, Thompson, Arreola, Chagaev, Ibragimov…fit right into the 1980s scene…and are on a par with Berbick, Weaver, Cooney…

There was more depth back then…but so what? Holmes didn’t fight Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page, Coetzee or Dokes…so it made no difference… Instead we got Scott LeDoux, Leroy Jones, Zanon, Cobb, Scott Frank…

Sure Holmes has the better record but people are getting carried away. And I heard all the same stuff with Larry…who’s he ever beaten…he’d have been a nobody in the 50s, 60s and 70s…

[jezzamundo]

Mike Tyson
David Tua
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moorer
George Foreman
and Riddick Bowe

I'd certainly favour Vitali to beat a 1990s Tyson and I'd give Wlad a very good chance too, provided he doesn't get caught. If we're talking Tyson of the 80s, it's a different story - I'd definitely take him to knock Wlad out. Vitali's size and durability work in his favour - I can't see Tyson stopping him early, but I can see Tyson taking a competitive decision in a fight that could go either way.

Tua could KO Wlad but I wouldn't bet on it - I think both K's decision him widely a-la Lennox Lewis.

Holyfield outhustled Wlad and stops him around the 7th round. Holyfield-Vitali would be a war, but I'd take the early 90s Holy to beat Vitali my a close decision.

Vitali wins a close decision over Moorer, possibly stops him late. Moorer-Wlad doesn't go the distance and could go either way, but I give the edge to Moorer who I think gets the job done in the 4th round.

Old George loses a competitive fight against Vitali. If Wlad boxes cautiously he can win a clear decision against a 90s Foreman, but my money's on George to stop him late.

Riddick Bowe wins a close decision over Vitali and knocks Wlad out in the middle rounds.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

90's Tyson can't beat the Klitschko's in my view. Of course he has a puncher's chance with Wlad, but that's it. I think Wlad at his best can jab Mike from a distance and wear him down with his size. Mike always had trouble with particularly tall guys, even ones that weren't all that talented. The Klitschko's along with Bowe and Lennox Lewis are the most talented, exceptionally tall fighters of all time. Both rank ahead of Bowe in my view, Bowe would be handful for either K brother in a head to head fight, but they've both accomplished more than him.

Not true. Holyfield had more trouble with bigger fighters.

[polecateddy]

How would the Brothers K got on against the Heavyweight stars of the 1990s in the shape of

Mike Tyson
David Tua
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moorer
George Foreman
and Riddick Bowe

Mike Tyson - it would take a peak Tyson to not lose heart when it didn't go his way. It could come from behind to beat Wlad, but I think Vitali gets a late stoppage with Tyson busted up and dispirited on his feet.

David Tua - one-sided decision defeats against either brother. He only did well against the second tier mob.

Evander Holyfield - defiant and competitive enough to go the distance. He can make it close-ish on the cards but the decisions go against him.

Big George - come on, he's never in it against either brother. I imagine he would sit out between rounds or the ref takes mercy and stops it with George getting hurt but still standing.

Riddick Bowe - the hardest to be sure of the result. At his (brief) peak he could feasibly stop Wlad, but I think Vitali would either stop him late or take a tough decision.

...I forgot Moorer, which is easily done. A straight-forward stoppage for either brother. Both brothers can win in 4.

[Rover]

But you haven't seen the K Brothers successfully apply their style to anyone of the calibre of those 90s fighters.

Sanders, a man who couldn't crack the top 10 in the 90s, as a fat old semi-retired man, wasted Wlad in 4 minutes and gave Vitali his toughest fight - after another 40 year old semi retired fat man in Lennox.

The form line does not look good for them.

Why do we have to add years to fighters' ages? Lennox was 37, right?

[Rover]

Mike Tyson
David Tua
Evander Holyfield
Michael Moorer
George Foreman
and Riddick Bowe

I'd certainly favour Vitali to beat a 1990s Tyson and I'd give Wlad a very good chance too, provided he doesn't get caught. If we're talking Tyson of the 80s, it's a different story - I'd definitely take him to knock Wlad out. Vitali's size and durability work in his favour - I can't see Tyson stopping him early, but I can see Tyson taking a competitive decision in a fight that could go either way.

Tua could KO Wlad but I wouldn't bet on it - I think both K's decision him widely a-la Lennox Lewis.

Holyfield outhustled Wlad and stops him around the 7th round. Holyfield-Vitali would be a war, but I'd take the early 90s Holy to beat Vitali my a close decision.

Vitali wins a close decision over Moorer, possibly stops him late. Moorer-Wlad doesn't go the distance and could go either way, but I give the edge to Moorer who I think gets the job done in the 4th round.

Old George loses a competitive fight against Vitali. If Wlad boxes cautiously he can win a clear decision against a 90s Foreman, but my money's on George to stop him late.

Riddick Bowe wins a close decision over Vitali and knocks Wlad out in the middle rounds.

Agree with everything, except I'd take Wlad over Moorer.

[dempseyfire]

I think Vitali has a real chance against Bowe. Style-wise I think it's an interesting fight.

Me too.

nah
a chance
but less than 50/50 with a 90s Bowe in his prime, verses Dr IronSchmidt. Riddick would break his heart and thuds outs a late stoppage/retirement.

But I'm just an eighties/nineties fanboy

like you say style wise

The problem for me is I remember those 1980s heavyweights…they all have 1 stand out performance we can trot out, but for the most part they were lazy and inconsistent…with a truck full of excuses.

The Klits would have been blue ribbon fighters in the 1980s. And Klit victims like Sam Peter, Chris Byrd, David Haye, Solis, Thompson, Arreola, Chagaev, Ibragimov…fit right into the 1980s scene…and are on a par with Berbick, Weaver, Cooney…

Th[/quote]

Completely disagree. Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Page, Dokes etc. were by far a far stronger field than Haye, Thomspon, Arreola, Chagaev, Peter etc. I don't think the likes of Peter and Arreola would've ever gotten past ESPN undercard level to be honest.

[keithmoonhangover]

Completely disagree. Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Page, Dokes etc. were by far a far stronger field than Haye, Thomspon, Arreola, Chagaev, Peter etc. I don't think the likes of Peter and Arreola would've ever gotten past ESPN undercard level to be honest.[/b]

Rose..... Tinted.... Spectacles.

Page lost to Mark Wills TWICE.
Terrible Tim lost in a round to Bonecrusher.
Dokes lost to Gerrie Coetzee
Berbick was limited.

These guys had flaws, BIG flaws. No better than today's crop.

Tim Witherspoon is probably th most overrated boxer on BOTP.

[dempseyfire]

Berbick is limited then what is Arreola?

No rose-tinted glasses needed; anyone with half a brain cell can watch Thomas-Witherspoon, Berbick-Snipes or Dokes-Coatzee and compare with Peter-Maskaev, Chagaev-Ruiz, Ibragimov-Briggs and see that the 80s fighters were in better condition, better athletes and had more skill (and perhaps surprisingly, overall they were a BIGGER group of fighters than the top HWs of the past decade sans the K brothers).

[crusader]

If Holyfield was on his game he should win. They beat all the others.

I can't believe the desperation in some of these predictions.

No kidding. It's par for the course with Klitschko threads in this section of the forum.

[polecateddy]

Random thought. Ability-wise I would say Michael Dokes is very similar to Lamon Brewster. I would suggest that the skill-based, non-punchers like Tony Tubbs would all have the same issues as say Chris Byrd dealing with the huge physical advantages of the brothers.

[keithmoonhangover]

Berbick is limited then what is Arreola?

No rose-tinted glasses needed; anyone with half a brain cell can watch Thomas-Witherspoon, Berbick-Snipes or Dokes-Coatzee and compare with Peter-Maskaev, Chagaev-Ruiz, Ibragimov-Briggs and see that the 80s fighters were in better condition, better athletes and had more skill (and perhaps surprisingly, overall they were a BIGGER group of fighters than the top HWs of the past decade sans the K brothers).

Tim Witherspoon and Tony Tubbs 'in better condition' than the fighters of today?!? Yes Arreola is fat, but so were plenty of fighters back then.

[dempseyfire]

Berbick is limited then what is Arreola?

No rose-tinted glasses needed; anyone with half a brain cell can watch Thomas-Witherspoon, Berbick-Snipes or Dokes-Coatzee and compare with Peter-Maskaev, Chagaev-Ruiz, Ibragimov-Briggs and see that the 80s fighters were in better condition, better athletes and had more skill (and perhaps surprisingly, overall they were a BIGGER group of fighters than the top HWs of the past decade sans the K brothers).

Tim Witherspoon and Tony Tubbs 'in better condition' than the fighters of today?!? Yes Arreola is fat, but so were plenty of fighters back then.

Witherspoon and Tubbs had many fights in which they WERE in top condition (Witherspoon the 2teens and lower 220s; Tubbs in the 220s). They were also big framed, big boned 6'3 guys.

Chagaev on the other hand is barely over 6 ft, with short arms and who was fighting fighting at 200 in the AMs (same-day weigh in) in his 20s, balooned his fat ass up to 225-235 his whole career. Ditto with Peter, who isn't even 6'1 and fought practically his whole career in the 240s and 250s. Arreola . . my God I don't remember any of the 80s guys looking as flabby and soft as he has . . it's disgusting. Plus you had guys like Snipes, Berbick, Smith, Weaver, Bruno etc. who were always in shape and ripped. Now you have Haye and the K brothers and then it ends; the rest are overstuffed whales.

[polecateddy]

'Chagaev on the other hand is barely over 6 ft, with short arms and who was fighting fighting at 200 in the AMs (same-day weigh in) in his 20s, balooned his fat ass up to 225-235 his whole career. Ditto with Peter, who isn't even 6'1 and fought practically his whole career in the 240s and 250s. Arreola . . my God I don't remember any of the 80s guys looking as flabby and soft as he has . . it's disgusting. Plus you had guys like Snipes, Berbick, Smith, Weaver, Bruno etc. who were always in shape and ripped. Now you have Haye and the K brothers and then it ends; the rest are overstuffed whales.'

...this is a fair point. I think in some cases the extra weight is down to over doing the body building type nutrition. Too much protein and over eating.

[Ezzard]

Completely disagree. Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Page, Dokes etc. were by far a far stronger field than Haye, Thomspon, Arreola, Chagaev, Peter etc. I don't think the likes of Peter and Arreola would've ever gotten past ESPN undercard level to be honest.[/b]

Rose..... Tinted.... Spectacles.

Page lost to Mark Wills TWICE.
Terrible Tim lost in a round to Bonecrusher.
Dokes lost to Gerrie Coetzee
Berbick was limited.

These guys had flaws, BIG flaws. No better than today's crop.

Tim Witherspoon is probably th most overrated boxer on BOTP.

I agree with the sentiment, Keith.

Witherspoon was a terrific fighter but all we get to refer to is the guy who lost to Holmes. Other than that he was almost never on his game. He got sparked in 1 round by a very limited Bonecrusher.

We can say Tim wasn’t up for it that night, his mind was elsewhere…but his mind was always elsewhere…

But I don’t want to tear Tim down, he was a highly skilled boxer. But if people think Berbick/Tubbs/Snipes were some kind of high watermark they are kidding themselves. Then again, there was nothing wrong with those guys…but they were not head and shoulders above the Klits opposition…they were on a par.

[polecateddy]

Completely disagree. Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Page, Dokes etc. were by far a far stronger field than Haye, Thomspon, Arreola, Chagaev, Peter etc. I don't think the likes of Peter and Arreola would've ever gotten past ESPN undercard level to be honest.[/b]

Rose..... Tinted.... Spectacles.

Page lost to Mark Wills TWICE.
Terrible Tim lost in a round to Bonecrusher.
Dokes lost to Gerrie Coetzee
Berbick was limited.

These guys had flaws, BIG flaws. No better than today's crop.

Tim Witherspoon is probably th most overrated boxer on BOTP.

I agree with the sentiment, Keith.

Witherspoon was a terrific fighter but all we get to refer to is the guy who lost to Holmes. Other than that he was almost never on his game. He got sparked in 1 round by a very limited Bonecrusher.

We can say Tim wasn’t up for it that night, his mind was elsewhere…but his mind was always elsewhere…

But I don’t want to tear Tim down, he was a highly skilled boxer. But if people think Berbick/Tubbs/Snipes were some kind of high watermark they are kidding themselves. Then again, there was nothing wrong with those guys…but they were not head and shoulders above the Klits opposition…they were on a par.

And at the end of the day it was a young Witherspoon who very nearly lost to Frank Bruno. Now I like Bruno - he's strong, great jab and solid fundamentals despite obviously not being the ideal build for 12 rounders - but he never had the abilities of either of the brother's K. Guys like Snipes were fast and skilled, but I'm sure he would have plumped for cruiserweight if he was around today. Tubbs was terrific but not better than Chris Byrd, and Bryd was far more consistent in his performances. Berbick was just a big, tough lump ...okay, better than that but obviously nothing special in world boxing terms.

[dempseyfire]

Completely disagree. Berbick, Thomas, Tucker, Witherspoon, Bruno, Page, Dokes etc. were by far a far stronger field than Haye, Thomspon, Arreola, Chagaev, Peter etc. I don't think the likes of Peter and Arreola would've ever gotten past ESPN undercard level to be honest.[/b]

Rose..... Tinted.... Spectacles.

Page lost to Mark Wills TWICE.
Terrible Tim lost in a round to Bonecrusher.
Dokes lost to Gerrie Coetzee
Berbick was limited.

These guys had flaws, BIG flaws. No better than today's crop.

Tim Witherspoon is probably th most overrated boxer on BOTP.

I agree with the sentiment, Keith.

Witherspoon was a terrific fighter but all we get to refer to is the guy who lost to Holmes. Other than that he was almost never on his game. He got sparked in 1 round by a very limited Bonecrusher.

We can say Tim wasn’t up for it that night, his mind was elsewhere…but his mind was always elsewhere…

But I don’t want to tear Tim down, he was a highly skilled boxer. But if people think Berbick/Tubbs/Snipes were some kind of high watermark they are kidding themselves. Then again, there was nothing wrong with those guys…but they were not head and shoulders above the Klits opposition…they were on a par.

And at the end of the day it was a young Witherspoon who very nearly lost to Frank Bruno. Now I like Bruno - he's strong, great jab and solid fundamentals despite obviously not being the ideal build for 12 rounders - but he never had the abilities of either of the brother's K. Guys like Snipes were fast and skilled, but I'm sure he would have plumped for cruiserweight if he was around today. Tubbs was terrific but not better than Chris Byrd, and Bryd was far more consistent in his performances. Berbick was just a big, tough lump ...okay, better than that but obviously nothing special in world boxing terms.[/quote]

Why on earth would Snipes go down to cruiser to fight for smaller purses? The big reason why cruiser is always a shallow division is guys either balloon straight up to HW (Chagaev, Ibragimov, Chambers) or use it as a stepping stone into HW (Holyfield, Haye, Gomez). Snipes was already ripped at 215-220 whereas an Ibragimov looked like your local plumber at 220.

Byrd better than Tubbs? More consistent . . .I'll give you that. But on their best day I'd go for the guy who wasn't a blown up light heavyweight. Berbick wasn't a flashy boxer but far better than the likes of Arreola and Peter. He had the strength of those two (and greater athleticism) but actually had the conditioning to throw punches and not be completely gassed after 3 rounds. He was able to outwork and wear out very skilled boxers in Page and Thomas.

Bruno didn't have the abilities of the Brothers K . . who cares, I haven't even brought up the two best HWs of the 80s in Holmes and Tyson.

[Ezzard]

He had the strength of those two (and greater athleticism) but actually had the conditioning to throw punches and not be completely gassed after 3 rounds.[/b]

You mean like Page, Tubbs, Bey…

[dempseyfire]

He had the strength of those two (and greater athleticism) but actually had the conditioning to throw punches and not be completely gassed after 3 rounds.[/b]

You mean like Page, Tubbs, Bey…

No talking about Berbick. You seem to be equating my contention that the 80s were a far deeper and superior field to the 2000s that I view the 80s as some sort of Golden Age . . it wasn't. But the last decade in HW boxing has been the worst division of all time. It's simply dreadful . .doesn't take too much to best that.

[Rover]

He had the strength of those two (and greater athleticism) but actually had the conditioning to throw punches and not be completely gassed after 3 rounds.[/b]

You mean like Page, Tubbs, Bey…

No talking about Berbick. You seem to be equating my contention that the 80s were a far deeper and superior field to the 2000s that I view the 80s as some sort of Golden Age . . it wasn't. But the last decade in HW boxing has been the worst division of all time. It's simply dreadful . .doesn't take too much to best that.

[Ezzard]

I’m saying the Klit era hasn’t been as deep but many of the challengers they have defeated would hold their own with the 1980s fighters. I don’t see much of a difference. I look at Sam Peter and see the archetypal 1980s HW…carrying too much weight…not entirely focused…sleepwalking to defeat…

Unlike Holmes and Bowe the Klits have turned over every stone to find challengers and when they leave the sport there will be nobody crowing that they didn’t get their shot. That’s worth something in my book.

The idea some are putting out…that Michael Moorer beats either of them goes so far it ceases to be funny…

I’m not trying to promote the Klits here. I’m just being honest about the 1980s and retired fighters.

[dempseyfire]

Well I just strongly disagree about the calibre of the Klit's comp. I honestly don't think a Peter, Brock, or Arreola would've gotten beyond ESPN opponent level in the 80s. Peter is like a fat Jumbo Cummings.

[Rover]

Well I just strongly disagree about the calibre of the Klit's comp. I honestly don't think a Peter, Brock, or Arreola would've gotten beyond ESPN opponent level in the 80s. Peter is like a fat Jumbo Cummings.

I'm with you wholeheartedly.

[thunderfromdownunder]

I’m saying the Klit era hasn’t been as deep but many of the challengers they have defeated would hold their own with the 1980s fighters. I don’t see much of a difference. I look at Sam Peter and see the archetypal 1980s HW…carrying too much weight…not entirely focused…sleepwalking to defeat…

Unlike Holmes and Bowe the Klits have turned over every stone to find challengers and when they leave the sport there will be nobody crowing that they didn’t get their shot. That’s worth something in my book.

The idea some are putting out…that Michael Moorer beats either of them goes so far it ceases to be funny…

I’m not trying to promote the Klits here. I’m just being honest about the 1980s and retired fighters.

I'm with you one this one, for what it's worth.
Maybe not Peter or charr, but Haye, ibramigov, Chagaev, sanders, Brewster ect would have all been top 20 guys in the 80's