BoxRec

Perkins. A lot of his losses where hometown decisions.

Hey, is DLH the greatest jr. welter ever? He never lost there, you know.

I'd go with Loi based on consistency and the fact that you gotta be one bad man to best Carlos Ortiz 2/3.

I think Napoles may've been the best to ever fight there, but he doesn't have the resume to back it up really, considering most of his best work was done as a Welter. He does have some excellent wins, though, notably against Hernandez and the exceptional Eddie Perkins.

King Carlos wrote:I'd go with Loi based on consistency and the fact that you gotta be one bad man to best Carlos Ortiz 2/3.

I think Napoles may've been the best to ever fight there, but he doesn't have the resume to back it up really, considering most of his best work was done as a Welter. He does have some excellent wins, though, notably against Hernandez and the exceptional Eddie Perkins.

Glad there's some Loi support here.

Loi was good but perkins was better and proved it in the ring. Their last fight was a robbery as was their first. Perkins beat him three out of three. The officiating of the second Ortiz fight was typical Italian officiating. Ortiz cracked Loi with a six punch combination and knocked him down for the cleanest knockdown you could hope for and the fatass ref just stood there. When Ortiz was dropped he jumped in immediately, sent Loi to a corner, and began a count. Loi was protected in Italy, its as simple as that. He is like Locche in that they have benefitted from a lack of footage. As more footage surfaces on them you see that their records had a lot to do with friendly officials. Dont get me wrong, both were great, but both should have more losses on their records than they do.

I'd seen the footage of Ortiz's knockdown of Loi. Thought it was preposterous that it wasn't called. Do you have the full fight, or extended highlights? I've seen highlights of their bouts and some other Loi footage.

I've also read that Perkins claimed he was robbed against Napoles, but considering not a single judge gave him even one round and he got put on his ass I'm gonna take it with a bucket of salt.

Loche was very bit as good as Loi. Cervantes was better than either of them.

Ive got all of the second and third fights with Ortiz. Ive never seen footage of their first fight which I find odd.

Id love to see Perkins-Napoles. I hope to find it someday. As well as Perkins-Locche, which was also reputed to be a bad decision.

Cervantes was a great fighter. A fight between he and Eddie would be interesting.

Tito nor Ottke were great fighters. Pryor proved to be the best by beating an all time great in extraordinary and classic fashion. Put another jr. welter with Arguello that night and we right now would have been talking about Arguello in the same breath of all time greats like Duran, Robinson, Pep, Langford, Armstrong or Ali.
Pryor also made 8 title defenses, all by KO, winning his last 22 fights at jr welter by KO with the exception of the Nick Furlano fight.

elmersalsa wrote:Tito nor Ottke were great fighters. Pryor proved to be the best by beating an all time great in extraordinary and classic fashion. Put another jr. welter with Arguello that night and we right now would have been talking about Arguello in the same breath of all time greats like Duran, Robinson, Pep, Langford, Armstrong or Ali.
Pryor also made 8 title defenses, all by KO, winning his last 22 fights at jr welter by KO with the exception of the Nick Furlano fight.

And the Gary Hinton fight.
And Arguello was a great jr. welter?
Great fighter...yes. Different concepts.

Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

klompton wrote:Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

He has some good wins (Johnson and Montilla). Cervantes looked good in dispatching Montilla before fighting Pryor. I don't consider him the greatest, though.

Pryor had lots of talent to begin with. A very complete fighter in my view that could box, slug it out against the best sluggers and inside fighters like Arguello. His victory against Arguello cemented his greatness that night. It was a terrific fight, no matter if there was a black bottle or not. He was in lots of trouble in that fight and showed tremendous heart and courage by absorbing and taking those great big bombs that Arguello, one of all time greatest punchers, could not put him down. Another jr welterweight great and get those shots that Pryor took with Arguello, most of them would have been on the floor. Arguello was going for his fourth title. He was cut short in the same breath of the Durans, Armstrongs, Langfords, Robinsons, Peps and Alis. But, losing to Pryor was no shame on that. He lost to a fighter that I consider pound per pound all time 100 greats.

Other mentioned that DLH did not lose a fight at 140lbs. Well, how could he be compared to Pryor? He only had 3 fights at 140. Maybe 2.

klompton wrote:Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

Then, what fighters at 140lbs you think that were "better" than the Cincinnati Hawk? Let's give Pryor his due. He was a great fighter. A top 100 in my view? Yes!!!

elmersalsa wrote:Pryor had lots of talent to begin with. A very complete fighter in my view that could box, slug it out against the best sluggers and inside fighters like Arguello. His victory against Arguello cemented his greatness that night. It was a terrific fight, no matter if there was a black bottle or not. He was in lots of trouble in that fight and showed tremendous heart and courage by absorbing and taking those great big bombs that Arguello, one of all time greatest punchers, could not put him down. Another jr welterweight great and get those shots that Pryor took with Arguello, most of them would have been on the floor. Arguello was going for his fourth title. He was cut short in the same breath of the Durans, Armstrongs, Langfords, Robinsons, Peps and Alis. But, losing to Pryor was no shame on that. He lost to a fighter that I consider pound per pound all time 100 greats.

Other mentioned that DLH did not lose a fight at 140lbs. Well, how could he be compared to Pryor? He only had 3 fights at 140. Maybe 2.

And he didn't lose one.
Spadafora didn't lose at lightweight.
And Arguello is a great fighter, not a great jr. welter.

elmersalsa wrote:

klompton wrote:Arguello did nothing at 140 that beating him at that weight would instantly qualify you as a great junior welter. Outside of Arguello (in his first fight at 140) and a very old Cervantes his resume is pretty weak (and lets not forget he needed help from a black bottle to beat Arguello). He's a heck of a lot of fun to watch but I dont think he proved himself as the greatest fighter in the history of his division.

Then, what fighters at 140lbs you think that were "better" than the Cincinnati Hawk? Let's give Pryor his due. He was a great fighter. A top 100 in my view? Yes!!!

He's already expressed his views on that earlier in the thread.

I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

elmersalsa wrote:I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

Cervantes was far more accomplished at jr. welter when Benitez beat him. You're basing Pryor's greatness at a weight on a win over a fighter who had little in terms of accomplishments there (or at higher weights).
Is "anticipation" the best you have?

Il Duce wrote:Jose 'Mantequila' Napoles should have been fighting for the 140 lb. Championship many times,
and he could have been the best.

But, he was stuck fighting for minimal Pesos in Mexico, and the Light Welterweight Champion's
wanted nothing to do with him.

You mean Locche? By the time Arcari came along Napoles had already won the welter title.

Napoles would have killed Locche anywhere in the world outside of Argentina. He would have literally had to kill him IN Argentina to win.

Rover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

Cervantes was far more accomplished at jr. welter when Benitez beat him. You're basing Pryor's greatness at a weight on a win over a fighter who had little in terms of accomplishments there (or at higher weights).
Is "anticipation" the best you have?

The great Alexis Arguello was by FAR, much more ACCOMPLISHED than Antonio Cervantes. Cervantes nor Meldrick Taylor makes the top 100 all time p4p in my view.

Not at jr welter he wasn't

elmersalsa wrote:

Rover wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:I have never said that the great Alexis Arguello was an all time great at jr welterweight. He did not had enough fights. But he was already considered an all time pound per pound great when he was trying to do something at the time nobody was able to do, and that was to win a fourth title. Plus, Arguello NEVER lost a title fight after he lost to Ernesto Marcel. Arguello cruised through the feathers, jr lightweights and lightweights with a title fight record of 19-1, winning 19 title fights in a row, and lost once in 41 bouts since 1974. That was against Vilomar Fernandez in '78. Pryor was an exciting and undefeated champion that at the point facing Alexis, won 25 or 26 fights in a row by knockout.

The climax and the anticipation of the fight was incredible. And the fight surpassed the expectations and Pryor, like an all time great, won. NO matter if there was a bottle or not. I saw a CLASH OF HEADS that kept Arguello DIZZY in that faithful round 14th. After the butt, Arguello did not throw a single punch. Maybe it was because he tried to clear the cobwebs.

No jr. welterweight in history had a better win than that. Chavez vs Taylor I, or Benitez vs Cervantes, do not come close.

Cervantes was far more accomplished at jr. welter when Benitez beat him. You're basing Pryor's greatness at a weight on a win over a fighter who had little in terms of accomplishments there (or at higher weights).
Is "anticipation" the best you have?

The great Alexis Arguello was by FAR, much more ACCOMPLISHED than Antonio Cervantes. Cervantes nor Meldrick Taylor makes the top 100 all time p4p in my view.

I'm talking about jr. welterweight--you know, the division where the fights in question occurred and the division relevant to this thread.

klompton wrote:Not at jr welter he wasn't

Elmer apparently hasn't grasped the nuance of our position.

Jose Napoles could have made 140 for practically his whole career, and I think it would have taken a Roberto Duran or a Henry Armstrong to have (maybe) beaten him at that weight.

Napoles v. Duran v. Armstrong would have made quite a round-robin.