BoxRec

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 17:29**

Dead Mouse wrote:
I don't believe that Newman's plans ever included Lewis.

Bowe's deal, plus his huge signing on fee, killed his desire as well as a fight with Lewis, he lacked discipline and focus.

They tried fight Lewis more than once, so obviously, undeniably, their plans did include Lewis.

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 17:35**

keithmoonhangover wrote: Bowe took numerous clean shots. Lewis was a much better boxer than him.

Yes, a 23 year old grown man Lennox Lewis, in his second Olympics, got the better of an 18 year old boy Riddick Bowe in his first Olympics.

Very much like another powerful grown man, called Jorge Luis Gonzalez, beat the boy Bowe up. Was he a better boxer than Bowe too?

Were Al Evans and Craig Payne better boxers than that boy Tyson they beat? How about Henry Tillman?

Was Kent Green better than Muhammad Ali? Duane Bobick better than Larry Holmes?

Anyone clinging to Lennox Lewis's amateur stoppage of Riddick Bowe and trying to present it as proof that Lewis was somehow better than Bowe is deluded. Best vs best in the pro ranks it's a whole different world, as we've seen time and again.

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 18:07**

Fook me quixall thought you knew all the answers!!
Bowe relenquished rather then fight Lewis who was in his tail a wanted it!
Bowe to me was a bully boy especially how he sucker punched larry Donald

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 18:24**

Quixall wrote:The third is that he didn't give Vitali a re-match

I think that was forgivable, though. It was a shame for Klitschko, but Lewis was at the end of his career, had achieved all that he'd wanted to, and had scraped a win against a very dangerous opponent. Risking his health in a rematch would've only been for Klitschko's benefit, and Vitali came away from that fight with much praise.

If Lewis had gone around telling everyone he'd have smashed up Klitschko in a rematch, I'd agree with you. But as far as I'm aware, he quietly acknowledged the changing of the guard?

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 21:28**

loaded_gloves wrote:
Fat Git wrote:
Quixall wrote:Why didn't a fight between Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe happen ?

Because Bowe didn't have to, if he could make a good living fighting the likes of a shot Mike Dokes
and Jesse Ferguson then why fight Lewis who would have beaten him.

Saying that, I loved watching Bowe fight - he was excellent in his day. A massively talented
individual.

Fat Git, that's not at all what happened. Please read my first post in this thread.

Why people insist on clinging to a viewpoint which they have not bothered to research is beyond me, it must be to dowith the mental calibre.

It is exactly what fornicating happened! I was there and know as much as the ins and outs as you do, as I remember the time only too well. You have proven before that you know as much about boxing as I do about crown green bowling - you are dismissed.

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 21:35**

loaded_gloves wrote:Bowe did not duck Lennox Lewis. He made a business decision.

Bowe and Newman refused to play into the Don King/Jose Suliman sanctioning chicanery right away in 1993. The closest King had to the then-lucrative heavyweight title in 1992 was Razor Ruddock, and after Lewis bombed Ruddock he got options on Lewis, and saw a potentially weak link with his green team of Maloney et al. King with Sulaiman lifelong in his pocket tried force Bowe to fight Lewis immediately to try quicken his grip on the heavyweight title. There is a long, long, long list of King fighters with WBC titles not having to fight mandatories for years, and the flagrant corruption was not lost on Newman & Bowe.

Thus, Bowe & Newman, intending to make some money* from Bowe's hard earned world title before taking on the most dangerous contender, ditched the WBC belt and went their own way. The plan was to fight Lewis in 94. That Bowe lost to Holyfield threw a spanner in the works.

* like when Lewis repeatedly deferred David Tua in favour of Michael Grant and Frans Botha.

With Lewis in the driving seat as WBC champ, Lewis and Bowe had both agreed to big money HBO fight in 1995 - but Lewis got KOd by McCall and that again threw a spanner in the works.

Bowe fresh off his KO of Holyfield and recognised in the media as the Best Heavyweight in the World offered Lennox Lewis a big money fight, on HBO, in 1996, but Lewis didn't fancy it for whatever mysterious reason - possibly deeming Bowe a high risk fight with the Tyson sweepstakes in full swing?

Essentially King and Sulaiman's heavy handed antics nixed the first opportunity to fight, then Evander Holyfield, then Oliver McCall, then Lewis for reasons unknown.

They should have boxed, alas they didn't, and both men are to blame.

All conjecture, bollox, personal opinion - unless you are Newman, Bowe or Lewis then all of the above is semi-estimated bullshite based on a few known facts. I'll use your posts if I ever have insomnia as it is far better than counting sheep so I can nod of...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted: **24 Jun 2013, 21:40**

keithmoonhangover wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:Bowe did not duck Lennox Lewis. He made a business decision.
He made a business decision that involved him not fighting Lewis. In what way is that not ducking?

Simply read the rest of my post Keith, I explain the empirical facts in terms that even a child could understand.
I read the rest of the post and some of it is right. But, answer my question.....

In what way is that not ducking?

It was what it was Keith, Bowe, or his team ducked him.

It doesn't matter what Lewis did and did not do in his career in regards chess moves, he didn't duck anyone and fought all the dangerous men of his era. He couldn't have done much more else.

Bowe was a great fighter, but the facts are, he never fought everyone and he dropped his WBC belt than fight Lewis, fact! The reasons why that are presented here by loaded gloves are bullshit and conjecture as nobody really knows, so up pops loaded gloves who wants to make his opinion and his spin on what happened fact.

. He was probably 6 years old when it all happened anyway. Stupid boy.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 05:44**

Fat Git, you either don't have the facts or are in denial. Nothing I wrote is 'conjecture', if you even know the meaning of the word. Judging by your remedial grammar, name-calling and mangled attempts at expressing yourself I can only assume you are six years old now.

I followed the sport at the time, the incidents I refer to are extensively covered in Boxing Monthly, The Ring and Boxing Illustrated. If you want to dismiss it all as fantasy then do so, you have no bearing on reality as you don't appear to exist in it.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 05:54**

I imagine Rock Newman weighed up the pros and cons, and realised it wasn't the smartest move to risk losing the title. In retrospect Bowe probably had a fair chance of beating that under-developed version of Lewis.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 06:53**

I seem to remember that it was dressed up as a tourney… The winner of Bowe-Holy to fight the winner of Lewis-Ruddock.

Bowe dumped the belt after Lewis blew Ruddock’s house down.

It seemed to me at the time a classic case of “Let’s let this fight cook itself up into a mega fight.” Bowe was fearful only in the sense that Lewis was a risk that he wanted more money for. That’s not to excuse Bowe, just to say it’s not that uncommon…build up two guys and have the face off later down the line… But as in the 1980s, when the WBA champ needed 2-3 defences to set up a big unification with Holmes, it never happened.

It’s no different to Fury and Price…who want to meet later down the line for bigger money…or at least Fury does/did…

At the time I thought Bowe would beat Lewis. Looking back I’m pretty sure I was wrong.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 08:30**

loaded_gloves wrote:Fat Git, you either don't have the facts or are in denial. Nothing I wrote is 'conjecture', if you even know the meaning of the word. Judging by your remedial grammar, name-calling and mangled attempts at expressing yourself I can only assume you are six years old now.

I followed the sport at the time, the incidents I refer to are extensively covered in Boxing Monthly, The Ring and Boxing Illustrated. If you want to dismiss it all as fantasy then do so, you have no bearing on reality as you don't appear to exist in it.

Conjecture - 'a proposition which is unproven' which is exactly what your post on the subject is.

You are posting your opinion as fact, based on your fancies and biases.

Despite my inferior grammar and punctuation. I know more about boxing than you, not hard I agree as
you know next to fark all. How's that for a mangled attempt at expressing myself?

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 09:28**

loaded_gloves wrote:Fat Git, you either don't have the facts or are in denial. Nothing I wrote is 'conjecture', if you even know the meaning of the word. Judging by your remedial grammar, name-calling and mangled attempts at expressing yourself I can only assume you are six years old now.

I followed the sport at the time, the incidents I refer to are extensively covered in Boxing Monthly, The Ring and Boxing Illustrated. If you want to dismiss it all as fantasy then do so, you have no bearing on reality as you don't appear to exist in it.

Cmon mate, no need for the personal insults

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 09:42**

columbo wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:Fat Git, you either don't have the facts or are in denial. Nothing I wrote is 'conjecture', if you even know the meaning of the word. Judging by your remedial grammar, name-calling and mangled attempts at expressing yourself I can only assume you are six years old now.

I followed the sport at the time, the incidents I refer to are extensively covered in Boxing Monthly, The Ring and Boxing Illustrated. If you want to dismiss it all as fantasy then do so, you have no bearing on reality as you don't appear to exist in it.
Cmon mate, no need for the personal insults

That is all he has got - now King Dooley has mangled him - it should be the last we hear from
him on this very subject.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 09:47**

2 words for all this.

ROCK NEWMAN.

also think bowe was happy to go along with it cos lewis f*cked his shit up in the olympics.

that hurt bowe in the pocket when he went pro cos the top promoters were less interested.

hence the reason he signed with that headcase newman.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 10:32**

loaded_gloves wrote:Bowe did not duck Lennox Lewis. He made a business decision.

Bowe and Newman refused to play into the Don King/Jose Suliman sanctioning chicanery right away in 1993. The closest King had to the then-lucrative heavyweight title in 1992 was Razor Ruddock, and after Lewis bombed Ruddock he got options on Lewis, and saw a potentially weak link with his green team of Maloney et al. King with Sulaiman lifelong in his pocket tried force Bowe to fight Lewis immediately to try quicken his grip on the heavyweight title. There is a long, long, long list of King fighters with WBC titles not having to fight mandatories for years, and the flagrant corruption was not lost on Newman & Bowe.

Thus, Bowe & Newman, intending to make some money* from Bowe's hard earned world title before taking on the most dangerous contender, ditched the WBC belt and went their own way. The plan was to fight Lewis in 94. That Bowe lost to Holyfield threw a spanner in the works.

* like when Lewis repeatedly deferred David Tua in favour of Michael Grant and Frans Botha.

With Lewis in the driving seat as WBC champ, Lewis and Bowe had both agreed to big money HBO fight in 1995 - but Lewis got KOd by McCall and that again threw a spanner in the works.

Bowe fresh off his KO of Holyfield and recognised in the media as the Best Heavyweight in the World offered Lennox Lewis a big money fight, on HBO, in 1996, but Lewis didn't fancy it for whatever mysterious reason - possibly deeming Bowe a high risk fight with the Tyson sweepstakes in full swing?

Essentially King and Sulaiman's heavy handed antics nixed the first opportunity to fight, then Evander Holyfield, then Oliver McCall, then Lewis for reasons unknown.

They should have boxed, alas they didn't, and both men are to blame.

well put it winds me up sometimes when people say bowe was scared of lewis

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 10:51**

I've already posted the facts.

Short of scanning extensive magazines, or typing up the stories myself, there's not much else I can do.

If certain Brits want to ignore the truth over some tragic national pride or jingoistic obsession with Lewis then so be it, it's their life.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 10:56**

loaded_gloves wrote:I've already posted the facts.

Short of scanning extensive magazines, or typing up the stories myself, there's not much else I can do.

If certain Brits want to ignore the truth over some tragic national pride or jingoistic obsession with Lewis then so be it, it's their life.

You haven't posted facts, you have posted opinion that skews to your perception of what
happened - big fornicating difference you complete whopper!

Mr Dooley tore you a new one - you are best off leaving this thread now with as much
dignity as you have left.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 11:18**

Dead Mouse wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:I've already posted the facts.

Short of scanning extensive magazines, or typing up the stories myself, there's not much else I can do.

If certain Brits want to ignore the truth over some tragic national pride or jingoistic obsession with Lewis then so be it, it's their life.
My information came from the NYT, regional U.S. papers, British papers, mostly broadsheets, and the WBC and IBF's rules and regulations, as well as the small print of these rules. I've nothing against half the waffle and speculation that you posted as facts, but the comparison between the Tua and Lewis situations was plain stupid. Now you're accusing people of jingoism just because they disagree with you -- that's a bit daft, isn't it?

Hey up, Carlos. We're fellow nationalistic loons now, there's a turn up for the books for ya! How are you?

I am allright mate, it was lovely to read your opinion on this topic - like watching a rotweiler tearing open a can of pedigree chum!

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:04**

Fat Git wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:I've already posted the facts.

Short of scanning extensive magazines, or typing up the stories myself, there's not much else I can do.

If certain Brits want to ignore the truth over some tragic national pride or jingoistic obsession with Lewis then so be it, it's their life.
You haven't posted facts, you have posted opinion that skews to your perception of what
happened - big effing difference you complete whopper!

Mr Dooley tore you a new one - you are best off leaving this thread now with as much
dignity as you have left.

No, you've posted opinion. And name-calling. And even emoticons because you can't express yourself.

And then you bring up "dignity".

I have no idea who this 'Mr Dooley' you speak of is, the one who apparently 'tore me a new one', but I assume he is another of your schoolyard-brain-trapped-in-a-middle-aged-body ilk.

This thread is a bit like trying to speak sense to a pisshead in a kebab shop. I'll leave you pub geniuses to it.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:09**

loaded_gloves wrote:
Fat Git wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:I've already posted the facts.

Short of scanning extensive magazines, or typing up the stories myself, there's not much else I can do.

If certain Brits want to ignore the truth over some tragic national pride or jingoistic obsession with Lewis then so be it, it's their life.
You haven't posted facts, you have posted opinion that skews to your perception of what
happened - big effing difference you complete whopper!

Mr Dooley tore you a new one - you are best off leaving this thread now with as much
dignity as you have left.
No, you've posted opinion. And name-calling. And even emoticons because you can't express yourself.

And then you bring up "dignity".

I have no idea who this 'Mr Dooley' you speak of is, the one who apparently 'tore me a new one', but I assume he is another of your schoolyard-brain-trapped-in-a-middle-aged-body ilk.

This thread is a bit like trying to speak sense to a pisshead in a kebab shop. I'll leave you pub geniuses to it.

You are right - I have posted opinion - seeing as I am not Rock Newman, Lewis nor Bowe - I don't know what the real reasons are - that is where we are the same, what I am not doing you genius is posting opinion as fact and berating people because they are not treating my opinion as fact - do you understand?

Now, what are the facts.

Bowe dropped the WBC belt than face Lewis.

Newman nor Bowe are ever going to admit publicly that they ducked Lewis because they thought he would end their world title reign.

Bowe defended his title against two piss poor opponents in Ferguson and Dokes.

Had his career and health ruined by a man who was battered in a round by Lewis.

The 'Lewis ducked Tua' angle you provided was a fornicating joke.

You can argue with the 'facts' above if you want.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:13**

Now we're making up what I said.

I know Lewis didn't duck Tua, that was my whole point. I said he deferred Tua, in favour of easy fights with Grant and Botha.

Tua waited two years for his shot after beating Rahman. Lewis himself acknowledged Tua had waited long enough prior to Lewis/Tua - after he had milked his title with two nice easy paydays against Grant and Botha. "Piss poor opponents" in your white van parlance.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:17**

loaded_gloves wrote:Now we're making up what I said.

I know Lewis didn't duck Tua, that was my whole point. I said he deferred Tua, in favour of easy fights with Grant and Botha.

Tua waited two years for his shot after beating Rahman. Lewis himself acknowledged Tua had waited long enough prior to Lewis/Tua - after he had milked his title with two nice easy paydays against Grant and Botha. "Piss poor opponents" in your white van parlance.

Grant wasn't seen as a 'piss poor opponent' at the time, retrospect is great isn't it?

Botha wasn't brilliant, but he had lost to just Tyson and Moorer in something like 45 fights - not great but not Jesse Ferguson either.

As the Tua fight turned out (a fight that made Bonecrusher Smith vs Tyson look like Hagler vs Hearns) it was an easy, routine defence for Lewis, it wouldn't have been any different if the fight had took place two years earlier.

Now - is there anything else?

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:26**

hurlock wrote:Fook me quixall thought you knew all the answers!!
Bowe relenquished rather then fight Lewis who was in his tail a wanted it!
Bowe to me was a bully boy especially how he sucker punched larry Donald

I do on Broner

Ps Fascinating insight into why Lewis and Bowe never met..................Thanks for that

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:37**

Fat Git wrote: Grant wasn't seen as a 'piss poor opponent' at the time, retrospect is great isn't it?

Well done, you missed the point.

Fat Git wrote: Botha wasn't brilliant, but he had lost to just Tyson and Moorer in something like 45 fights - not great but not Jesse Ferguson either.

Well done, you missed the point again. And btw- highly subjective re- Ferguson/Botha. I thought you hated conjecture.

Fat Git wrote: As the Tua fight turned out (a fight that made Bonecrusher Smith vs Tyson look like Hagler vs Hearns) it was an easy, routine defence for Lewis, it wouldn't have been any different if the fight had took place two years earlier.

Again, you miss the point entirely.

Now - please return to the remedial class, there's no reason for you to be slowing down the rest of the class.

Posted: **25 Jun 2013, 12:41**

Fat Git wrote:
loaded_gloves wrote:Fat Git, you either don't have the facts or are in denial. Nothing I wrote is 'conjecture', if you even know the meaning of the word. Judging by your remedial grammar, name-calling and mangled attempts at expressing yourself I can only assume you are six years old now.

I followed the sport at the time, the incidents I refer to are extensively covered in Boxing Monthly, The Ring and Boxing Illustrated. If you want to dismiss it all as fantasy then do so, you have no bearing on reality as you don't appear to exist in it.
Conjecture - 'a proposition which is unproven' which is exactly what your post on the subject is.

You are posting your opinion as fact, based on your fancies and biases.

Despite my inferior grammar and punctuation. I know more about boxing than you, not hard I agree as
you know next to fark all. How's that for a mangled attempt at expressing myself?

Isn't Google wonderful. Just type in the word conjecture and it gives you it's meaning in a short no nonesense fashion.

All people post as if something is fact. That is how it comes across on forums, otherwise you would be constantly saying " I believe " or " If i am correct " or " Don't quote me on this " all the time.

To say Loaded know nothing at all is really childlike. You may not agree with all his points, but you only have to read his posts to know that the guy has some knowledge and an undertanding of the sport.

Why do you say you know more about boxing ? How do you know that ? How do you prove that ? Can you quantify that claim ?

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