BoxRec

That's what I'm saying, people knew him mostly from books and from footage of him vs old Dempsey. Thus the idea that he adjusted his style and tactics in the series vs Greb and got the better of the series, and that he was extremely clever boxer and was one of the best technicians of 1st half of 20th century.

orbtastic wrote:Wins over Lewinksky, Greb & Loughran not good enough?

Gene Tunney also had wins over Tommy Gibbons and Georges Carpentier. It may be that Tunney fought and beat a bunch of over-the-hill fighters, but he was the best light-heavyweight by a considerable margin by the time he became a heavyweight. I think that he would continued to remain dominant while facing the likes of Jack Delaney, Jimmy Slattery, Paul Berlenbach, Young Stribling, or even Tommy Loughran, who may have not been at his peak during the middle 1920s. But history shows that the heavyweight division was far more lucrative at the time, especially with Jack Dempsey as the champion.

- Chuck Johnston

Didn't Delaney (or was it Slattery) have a win over Maxie Rosnebloom? can't have been bad.

And Greb has to be a top 10 LightHeavy??????????

I think most would be comfortable rating him top 3 ATG at middle, he fought plenty at light heavy but it was generally because he was fighting guys that couldn't or wouldn't make 160.

And what do the wins over Tommy Gibbons, above 175lbs, in Tommy's last fight, and over George Carpentier, also almost at the end of his career (and Carpentier was never that good to begin with), add to Tunney's lhw ATG status? People can fantasize as much as they want what would have been had he stayed at lhw, that is pure imagination (and, IMHO, words 'Tunney' and 'dominant' don't really fit together, if consistency and impressiveness of wins are considered), and doesn't add anything to his lhw achievements, which are pretty poor in ATG sense. Far poorer than Jones Jr's, for example, or Bob Foster's, or Virgil Hill's, just to name a few.

Not sure anything could be any poorer than Jones's and have the letters "A", "T" and "G" on the same page.

Taking a close look at Gene Tunney's record, I wondered when he became a truly great fighter. It is my belief that he wasn't one when he fought Harry Greb for the first time during 1922. After all, Tunney did not have enough experience to be competitive with the likes of Greb and Tommy Gibbons at the time, which was very apparent when he took quite a beating from Greb in the first bout.

During late 1922, Tunney fought Tommy Loughran in a very close eight-round bout in Philadelphia, Loughran's hometown. Then he fought Greb for a second time during the part of 1923, winning a very disputed decision in a fifteen-round bout. Did Tunney become a great fighter in late 1922 or 1923? I think a case can be made on that score. But that would mean Tunney was a great fighter as a light-heavyweight for only about two years because it doesn't appear that he weighed less than 180 pounds for any bout after 1924.

- Chuck Johnston

elmersalsa wrote:

polecateddy wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Can't see that for a moment. Jones doesn't make a top 10...not sure he makes a top 20.

Amazing how his stock has gone down because he carried on too long. At his peak he was untouchable. And beating young Hopkins and Toney I think points towards a fighter who could have mastered the best of the old school fighters.

The great Roy Jones, Jr. carried too long fighting third raters, policemen, taxi cab drivers and school teachers. I cannot see him on top 10 light heavy. Maybe a top 20 between 15 and 20 slots. That is about it. To me, he is not a top 50 great pound per pound all-time. He wasted his time with that so much great talent.

So whom did Roy avoid? How did he waste his time when he beat the best guys around

Joe Louis carried too long fighting third raters, policemen, taxi cab drivers and school teachers. I cannot see him on top 10 heavy. Maybe a top 20 between 15 and 20 slots. That is about it. To me, he is not a top 50 great pound per pound all-time. He wasted his time with that so much great talent.

scallum wrote:

elmersalsa wrote:

polecateddy wrote:
Amazing how his stock has gone down because he carried on too long. At his peak he was untouchable. And beating young Hopkins and Toney I think points towards a fighter who could have mastered the best of the old school fighters.

The great Roy Jones, Jr. carried too long fighting third raters, policemen, taxi cab drivers and school teachers. I cannot see him on top 10 light heavy. Maybe a top 20 between 15 and 20 slots. That is about it. To me, he is not a top 50 great pound per pound all-time. He wasted his time with that so much great talent.

So whom did Roy avoid? How did he waste his time when he beat the best guys around

I'm not getting into the finger pointing of why, but Calzaghe, Hopkins, Michalczewski, Benn, Collins, Eubank, McClellan & Liles is a nice starting point.