Jose Napoles "Could Have Been A '6' Division Champion"

[Borinken25]

Mr. Borinken 25,,,,,,,,

Look Closely

Jose Napoles left Cuba in 1961 at {Age 21} with a record of 20-1-0 {6 KO's}, as strictly a boxer
in the Featherweight Division, where speed was required.

Upon arriving in Mexico, and his 'first bout' there in July 1962 and by May 1963.

Mantequilla went 6-2-0 {4 KO's} against some 'tough hombres'. Look at who he was
matched up against.

* Enrique Caramena
* Kid Anahuac
* Bobby Cervantes
* Tony Perez {2x}
* Jorge Guitterrez
* Baby Vasquez
* Alfredo Urbina

There were no easy opponents who would fall down from getting hit. These were tough fighters.

'Mantequilla' was developing into a solid puncher by late-1962, though he was primarily a boxer.

On May 23, 1963 ~
At the Plaza de Toros in Tijuana - Jose Napoles - 26-1-0 {10 KO's} proved he could 'punch' -
when he put out 'dangerous' Mexican Lightweight - Raul 'Chato' Soriano - 30-6-1 {22 KO's}
with a crushing 'left-right-left' to the chin {KO 4}.

Mr. Il Duce,

I could clearly see you are a huge Napoles fan and believe it or not so am I.

However, none of those names were anywhere close to the level of Elorde and Ortiz. We are comparing totally two different things here, Elite vs Cab-drivers.

Caramena was the very definition of cab-driver. How many times was he KO in his career. What are his accomplishments as a fighter? None. Napoles did what he was supposed to do.

Anahuac another cab-driver. What was his rating at the time he fought Napoles? The guy have been KO before Napoles and few times after. Same as before Napoles did what he was supposed to do.

Bobby Cervantes another fighter with a padded record that was KO too by lesser fighters than Napoles. Hardly any evidence here of Napoles being a puncher.

Tony Perez he defeated him on points and then he lost to him. He was supposed to KO this guy.
How many times was this guy KO after that? Napoles failed to KO him.

Guitierrez was his best TKO. But again not by any means an elite fighter.

Defeated Baby Vasques by decision with shows he was a good boxer but not a puncher.

He lost to Urbina. He was supposed to KO Urbina. He is the best of the bunch. He failed to KO or defeat the best of the bunch and Urbina was nowhere close to the level of Elorde and Ortiz.

I failed to see how he would have defeated two elite fighters at their peak when he could not beat the best fighter that he fought at those weight classes.

[Rover]

Mr. Borinken 25,,,,,,,,

Look Closely

Jose Napoles left Cuba in 1961 at {Age 21} with a record of 20-1-0 {6 KO's}, as strictly a boxer
in the Featherweight Division, where speed was required.

Upon arriving in Mexico, and his 'first bout' there in July 1962 and by May 1963.

Mantequilla went 6-2-0 {4 KO's} against some 'tough hombres'. Look at who he was
matched up against.

* Enrique Caramena
* Kid Anahuac
* Bobby Cervantes
* Tony Perez {2x}
* Jorge Guitterrez
* Baby Vasquez
* Alfredo Urbina

There were no easy opponents who would fall down from getting hit. These were tough fighters.

'Mantequilla' was developing into a solid puncher by late-1962, though he was primarily a boxer.

On May 23, 1963 ~
At the Plaza de Toros in Tijuana - Jose Napoles - 26-1-0 {10 KO's} proved he could 'punch' -
when he put out 'dangerous' Mexican Lightweight - Raul 'Chato' Soriano - 30-6-1 {22 KO's}
with a crushing 'left-right-left' to the chin {KO 4}.

Mr. Il Duce,

I could clearly see you are a huge Napoles fan and believe it or not so am I.

However, none of those names were anywhere close to the level of Elorde and Ortiz. We are comparing totally two different things here, Elite vs Cab-drivers.

Caramena was the very definition of cab-driver. How many times was he KO in his career. What are his accomplishments as a fighter? None. Napoles did what he was supposed to do.

Anahuac another cab-driver. What was his rating at the time he fought Napoles? The guy have been KO before Napoles and few times after. Same as before Napoles did what he was supposed to do.

Bobby Cervantes another fighter with a padded record that was KO too by lesser fighters than Napoles. Hardly any evidence here of Napoles being a puncher.

Tony Perez he defeated him on points and then he lost to him. He was supposed to KO this guy.
How many times was this guy KO after that? Napoles failed to KO him.

Guitierrez was his best TKO. But again not by any means an elite fighter.

Defeated Baby Vasques by decision with shows he was a good boxer but not a puncher.

He lost to Urbina. He was supposed to KO Urbina. He is the best of the bunch. He failed to KO or defeat the best of the bunch and Urbina was nowhere close to the level of Elorde and Ortiz.

I failed to see how he would have defeated two elite fighters at their peak when he could not beat the best fighter that he fought at those weight classes.

Persuasive argument.

[giacomino]

Have all the respect in the world for the talent of Mantequilla, one of my favorite 60s and 70s fighters.
But I think he would have been hardpressed to capture Valdes' WBC title in 1974. Valdes had developed into a terrific middleweight who would give Monzon all he could handle, especially in the second fight.
By this time, the smaller Napoles was slowing down, having performed ordinarily against Clyde Gray in '73, and of course being battered by Monzon in '74. His skills were definately eroding.
The talented Valdes would have probably been too much to handle.

I agree. Can't see him beating Valdez at that time. I also think Elrode and Ortiz would have been tough fights in the early 60s, although both were beatable and Napoles was a special talent.

You seriously think that Elorde and Ortiz were not special talents too? Elorde and Ortiz rate at the top of their di lavision in all-time sense. No way I see Napoles beating those two in 63 and 64. Napoles was no where close to the fighter he later became to be, and Elorde and Ortiz were at their peak. Napoles was a special talent but so was Elorde and Ortiz.

Um, I didn't say they weren't. They are all hall-of-famers. I said they were beatable, as was Napoles. (Ortiz lost to Laguna the year after this supposed matchup, Elrode lost the year before and after). I was responding to the initial post saying Napoles would beat them and win six titles. I don't think he would have. Napoles wasn't even fighting at Elrode's weight in '63.

[Seamus]

I could see him winning JWW and JMW, but at 160 against Rodrigo Valdes, he wouldn't have a chance.

[Brute]

He fought a better middleweight than Valdez. Carlos Monzon stopped Napoles in five rounds.

[Rover]

He fought a better middleweight than Valdez. Carlos Monzon stopped Napoles in five rounds.

7

[Borinken25]

Mr. Il Duce,

“I know some pretty tough Mexican Cab Drivers, so you better watch out.”

That statement made me

The problem is that being tough does not necessarily translate as having good skills. Many of those tough hombres as you put it were simple not good enough to measure anything. Napoles was simply not the monster he was at 147. Elorde would have been at his most comfortable weight, at his peak, and with solid skills to boot. I would favor Elorde and Ortiz for the same reasons. Napoles was not as comfortable as he was at 147 were he peak and became a great fighter.

[Rover]

February 16, 1963

The 'first' WBA/WBC recognized World Super-Featherweight Championship Bout

Rizal Stadium - Manila, The Philippines
Attendance; 40,000+

** WBA / #1 WBC ~ Flash Elorde - 67-18-2 {26 KO's}
vs.
#1 WBA / #5 WBC ~ Johnny Bizzarro - 40-5-1 {19 KO's}

The nearly 28 year-old 'talented' Filipino struggled to make the 130 lbs. weight-limit, and those
in the know said he never got down to the Super Featherweight level after '7-Attempts'. Yet, the
Philippine Officials approved the bout in their home-country.

Flash Elorde was recognized as the WBA Super-Featherweight Champion, and was making the
'5th-Defense' of that version of the 130 lb. Championship.

Johnny Bizzarro, a 24 year-old light-hitting boxer out of Pennsylvania, who had a padded record
primarily fighting in the 'Northeast Club-Circuit', was ranked #5 by Ring Magazine at Super-Featherweight,
and also was the American Junior-Lightweight Champion.

Johnny was strictly a forward-pressing boxer, and had a 'granite-jaw' having never been floored in his career.

The Fight,

There was none, as Flash Elorde 'toyed' Johnny, and dominated the first 12-Rounds of the bout with an
assortment of two-fisted assaults.

Johnny took a licking, but kept on pressing throughout the bout. Despite getting 'schooled' by the elusive
Champion, Johnny came on strong over the last 3-Rounds, as Flash Elorde cruised protecting his wide
points lead.

Despite getting rocked several times, Johnny Bizzarro kept his record intact of having never been floored.

Associated Press Scorecard........73-68 {7-2-6 in Rounds}..... Flash Elorde.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 7F6vUewBJg

Flash Elorde, 'We hear that some Cuban fighting out of Mexico is making some noise in the Lightweight Division
and that he wants to Challenge me. Well, I'm here in Manila waiting for him."

"those in the know"?
Sounds like gossip when I see phrases like that.

[Rover]

Mr. Rover,

Did you know that Flash Elorde never made the 130 lb. weight limit outside of The Philippines.

His Promoter, Lope Sorreal made sure nearly all {11 of 13} Flash Elorde's Title Defenses were
held in The Philippines, except for 'two' that were in Japan.

Total Successful Defenses...12......{Philippines = 11........Japan = 1}

His attempt at the #13 Title Defense was a Loss in Japan, and he never made 130 lbs.

Flash campaigned as the OPBF Lightweight Champion as well.

Quite a few champs fight at home. How many fights has FMJ had outside the U.S.?
And I'm not Floyd bashing; just pointing it out. How about DLH? SRL? Hearns?
(referring to title fights here)

Just some prominent examples; from my memory a combined one title fight outside the U.S.

[Rover]

I don't put much stock in those programs.

[King Carlos]

While I disagree with the notion that Napoles was a green horn prior to Welterweight (by most accounts he was at his best in the 135-140 range), I do believe he was just too damn small to have ever been a force at Middleweight. I do see him beating Ortiz at Lightweight, though. So apparently did Ortiz's people.