BoxRec

I am very skeptical of this. I have many books that described this fight, including two biographies of Johnson. I have never heard or seen these knockdowns mentioned.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I am very skeptical of this. I have many books that described this fight, including two biographies of Johnson. I have never heard or seen these knockdowns mentioned.

I just said he wasn't actually floored, that the ropes prevented him from being floored. Rounds one through fifteen essentially was one sided, was all Johnson's and Willard was knocked into the ropes several times and looked like he was on his way out.

evrenb wrote:1. Muhammad Ali
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Vitali Klitschko
4. Larry Holmes
5. Oliver McCall
6. Evander Holyfield
7. George Foreman
8. Sonny Liston
9. Mike Tyson
10. Ray Mercer

I could have put McCall higher but i rated the others above him based on the harder punchers they faced....

To have Vitali over Mercer is insane
Vitali's chin has only been tested in ONE fight. If you're rating them on punchers faced how in God's name is Vitali not #10 at best? Someone like Foreman may have gone down but he showed durability vs a lot of huge punchers.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Johnson floored Willard? I had never heard that.

Well, he wasn't actually floored. The ropes prevented Willard from being floored on several oocasions.

That's simply not true and not backed up by the film or any newspaper account. Johnson drove Williard back but never had Jess in any trouble of going down.

dempseyfire wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:Johnson floored Willard? I had never heard that.

Well, he wasn't actually floored. The ropes prevented Willard from being floored on several oocasions.

That's simply not true and not backed up by the film or any newspaper account. Johnson drove Williard back but never had Jess in any trouble of going down.

What newspaper account I read said he was knocked into the ropes and looked like he was on his way out a few times in the contest.

HomicideHenry wrote:Jess Willard should also be on that list. Before the Dempsey fight, his chin was solid as granite. The only man to floor him prior to Dempsey was Jack Johnson and he came back to stop Johnson.

You said here that he floored him.

I think you'd have to put. Ali, Holyfield, Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano in the Top 5.

Possibly Foreman as well. His chin was always solid, most of the time if he went down it had more to do with stamina issues than chin issues. I chose Dempsey and Marciano because they always charged headlong into their opponents shots and rarely went down or got seriously hurt.

Ali, Holyfield, and Marciano should be in the top 5, but probably Frazier and Dempsey.
Frazier got blown away by Foreman. Ali did not, and don't know that they would have. What big puncher was he able to handle?
Dempsey was actaully knocked down a lot, (I believe it was something like 17 times in his career) though he was only stopped once. I don't think he was quite top5.
The Foreman was almost knocked out by Lyle, the one time where he got hit a lot by a hard puncher. He was knocked out by Ali, and while it was due to exhaustion and an accumilation of blows if he had truly one of the very best chins he probably would have knocked out in the 8th round.

Jeffries probably should be in there. He got hit a lot, and fought several good punchers and stood up to them.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Ali, Holyfield, and Marciano should be in the top 5, but probably Frazier and Dempsey.
Frazier got blown away by Foreman. Ali did not, and don't know that they would have. What big puncher was he able to handle?
Dempsey was actaully knocked down a lot, (I believe it was something like 17 times in his career) though he was only stopped once. I don't think he was quite top5.
The Foreman was almost knocked out by Lyle, the one time where he got hit a lot by a hard puncher. He was knocked out by Ali, and while it was due to exhaustion and an accumilation of blows if he had truly one of the very best chins he probably would have knocked out in the 8th round.

Jeffries probably should be in there. He got hit a lot, and fought several good punchers and stood up to them.

You may well be right I don't know enough about Jeffries to agree with or dispute your claim he belongs in the Top 5.

I know Frazier got bounced off the mat a lot by Foreman, but I think Foreman would be able to hurt most any Heavyweight that ever came along personally so I don't think that's so much a question of Frazier's lack of chin as much as it's a statement about Foreman's unbelievable strength and power.

I'll admit though Frazier and Dempsey were questionable choices to me even as I was typing them, I just couldn't think of any Heavyweight Champions more deserving at the time.

Ali and Holyfield were the only ones I was certain belonged on the list. Both of those guys were tough as all hell. I firmly believe Rocky Marciano deserves that appreciation as well though, because the way he fought he had to eat SEVERAL shots from virtually any opponent he faced, but he just kept on coming no matter who it was. He was a damn tough guy no doubt.

Some of the best chins of Heavyweights were on guys that never became Champion...unfortunately in most of those cases, their ability to take a punch wasn't equal to their ability to dish them out.

Specifically guys like Chuvalo, Cobb and Tua.

gilgamesh wrote:I think you'd have to put. Ali, Holyfield, Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano in the Top 5.

Possibly Foreman as well. His chin was always solid, most of the time if he went down it had more to do with stamina issues than chin issues. I chose Dempsey and Marciano because they always charged headlong into their opponents shots and rarely went down or got seriously hurt.

Yeah let's put Marciano above McCall, because that guy never got floored by light heavies or anything. Knob jockeys! Lol

Two of the three opponents that dropped ali were under 200lbs...the big guns couldn't drop him...doesnt always work like that...

polecateddy wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:I think you'd have to put. Ali, Holyfield, Frazier, Dempsey and Marciano in the Top 5.

Possibly Foreman as well. His chin was always solid, most of the time if he went down it had more to do with stamina issues than chin issues. I chose Dempsey and Marciano because they always charged headlong into their opponents shots and rarely went down or got seriously hurt.

Yeah let's put Marciano above McCall, because that guy never got floored by light heavies or anything. Knob jockeys! Lol

Like someone else said, I don't consider McCall a true Heavyweight Champion. He's a Heavyweight titlist. Nothing more. Can McCall take a punch better than Marciano?...yes. Was Marciano a true heavyweight champion while McCall wasn't?....yes

It's ironic that you would call me a Marciano "knob jockey" as I pick SEVERAL heavyweights to beat him. Even guys who were nothing more than contenders.

McCall should be worthy of consideration, after all he did KO arguably the best heavy of all-time in Lennox Lewis and hold a world title. In that one fight he looked a hell of a handful for anyone.

polecateddy wrote:McCall should be worthy of consideration, after all he did KO arguably the best heavy of all-time in Lennox Lewis and hold a world title. In that one fight he looked a hell of a handful for anyone.

He looked scared to death to me. Look at him in his ringwalk. Sometimes being scared helps you in a situation like that. Jameel McCline also looked scared to death when he took out Michael Grant with one punch.

I think it was a flukish shot and I don't think he would've been much competition for a lot of ATG Heavyweights in that form, not even the Lewis of 2 or 3 years later.

McCall was not a great fighter, let's not kid ourselves. But he's certainly tough as nails I'll give him that.

Real Champions:
1. Ali
2. Jeffries
3. Marciano
4. Holyfield
5. Holmes
6. Liston
7. Baer
8. Dempsey
9. Johnson
10. Bowe
Honorable Mention: Willard,Braddock,Frazier, and Foreman.

Champions and Title Holders:
1. Ali
2.McCall
3.Mercer
4.Jeffries
5. Marciano
6. Holyfield
7. Holmes
8. Liston
9. Tucker
10. V. Klitschko

I think that this is a fair list...
I feel foreman is top ten but it's one persons opinion...the overhand right he took from Lakusta was huge!!!

gilgamesh wrote:

polecateddy wrote:McCall should be worthy of consideration, after all he did KO arguably the best heavy of all-time in Lennox Lewis and hold a world title. In that one fight he looked a hell of a handful for anyone.

He looked scared to death to me. Look at him in his ringwalk. Sometimes being scared helps you in a situation like that. Jameel McCline also looked scared to death when he took out Michael Grant with one punch.

I think it was a flukish shot and I don't think he would've been much competition for a lot of ATG Heavyweights in that form, not even the Lewis of 2 or 3 years later.

McCall was not a great fighter, let's not kid ourselves. But he's certainly tough as nails I'll give him that.

I don't think you give him enough credit. He was clearly the best prepared he'd ever been for a fight and was fighting with real intensity and aggression. If he'd kept that form going he certainly would have beaten Bruno and at least given Lewis in the return a Ray Mercer type work-out!

polecateddy wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

polecateddy wrote:McCall should be worthy of consideration, after all he did KO arguably the best heavy of all-time in Lennox Lewis and hold a world title. In that one fight he looked a hell of a handful for anyone.

He looked scared to death to me. Look at him in his ringwalk. Sometimes being scared helps you in a situation like that. Jameel McCline also looked scared to death when he took out Michael Grant with one punch.

I think it was a flukish shot and I don't think he would've been much competition for a lot of ATG Heavyweights in that form, not even the Lewis of 2 or 3 years later.

McCall was not a great fighter, let's not kid ourselves. But he's certainly tough as nails I'll give him that.

I don't think you give him enough credit. He was clearly the best prepared he'd ever been for a fight and was fighting with real intensity and aggression. If he'd kept that form going he certainly would have beaten Bruno and at least given Lewis in the return a Ray Mercer type work-out!

I may be selling him short just a little bit, but his performances against other top Fighters shows he's nowhere near Lewis' level overall. He caught him one night and got a TKO win over one of the greatest Heavyweights of all time. Regardless of how great I think he is or isn't. He'll be able to take that with him all of his days.

And that's nothing to take lightly. I personally don't think he'd have been much trouble for the improved Lennox Lewis of the rematch, even if he were the exact same opponent as he was the first time.

If we are counting McCall(and I would err on that side, I mean fluke or not, he did beat Lewis) I don't see who would rank above him in terms of chin.

If we aren't counting him, I guess I'd go with Ali or Bowe, because I am not the historian some of you cats are, so I don't go that far back.

Bobbyptsd wrote:If we are counting McCall(and I would err on that side, I mean fluke or not, he did beat Lewis) I don't see who would rank above him in terms of chin.

If we aren't counting him, I guess I'd go with Ali or Bowe, because I am not the historian some of you cats are, so I don't go that far back.

He's undoubtedly in the Top 5. I wouldn't put him ahead of Ali though even if I were counting him. I mean Ali stood up to shots from Foreman and Shavers for f*ck's sake.

Basically no Heavyweights ever, hit harder than those guys.

Lewis did, shot for shot, imo.

And I'm aware that won't be a popular opinion.

That aside, I just think McCall was kind of freakish, in terms of chin.

I just thought of another guy when I said freakish.......are we counting Valuev?

Bobbyptsd wrote:Lewis did, shot for shot, imo.

And I'm aware that won't be a popular opinion.

That aside, I just think McCall was kind of freakish, in terms of chin.

I just thought of another guy when I said freakish.......are we counting Valuev?

He had a good chin...primarily because he was just plain huge and had a big ass head. Hard to hit a guy with your best shot when you're constantly punching up at him.

Yeah, it was more that I think he's worth mentioning as a curiosity, though it's more size than chin as you said. Also he was never the real HW champion, clearly.

.....louis said hitting max baer was like driving bricks into a wall. couldn't believe how tough he was. if you look at the fight you can see max goes down from barrages, and louis' combos were devastating. even at that, max could have gotten back up during the final knockdown but he said the crowd came to see a fight, not an execution.

ali's great chin is why he's walking around like a zombie these days.

Jaclem wrote:.....louis said hitting max baer was like driving bricks into a wall. couldn't believe how tough he was. if you look at the fight you can see max goes down from barrages, and louis' combos were devastating. even at that, max could have gotten back up during the final knockdown but he said the crowd came to see a fight, not an execution.

ali's great chin is why he's walking around like a zombie these days.

The fact that he has Parkinson's disease has nothing to do with his Boxing career. Parkinson's is not caused by blows to the head.