Il Duce- Please give me your top ten heavyweights in order

[ThatOne]

In my Top 10 List, that I was politely asked to put together,,,,,

Besides Ring Performance and Accomplishments, I added in the historical relevance and importance
in the Boxing Game.

Jack Dempsey was the 'Babe Ruth of Boxing', just as Babe Ruth was the 'Jack Dempsey of Baseball'.

Race, Color or Creed has nothing to with it.

Cassius Clay, for all his 'presence', fell into a 'mixing pot', as his 'key' victory was a win over a
Sonny Liston in a 'theatrical farce of a mess', not a brutal war.

1}.........Jack Dempsey destroyed Jess Willard.
2}.........Joe Louis crushed an over-matched James J. Braddock.
3}.........Larry Holmes fought a war with Kenny Norton.
4}.........Rocky Marciano came from way behind to 'one-punch' Jersey Joe Walcott
5}.........Cassius Clay {see above}
6}.........Jim Jeffries over-powered Robert Fitzsimmons after getting smashed in nearly every round.
7}.........Jack Johnson toyed with Tommy Burns.
8}.........George Foreman not only beat, but destroyed a fighter who was called invincible.
9}.........Joe Frazier just beat the hell out of whoever was in front of him {Buster Mathis}
10}.......Gene Tunney used the first scientific approach, to defeat a vicious Champion.

Muhammad Ali had signature wins over seven IBHOF inductees... You like fascist dictators...Ali went through that rummy, Sonny Liston, like the Italian Army went through Abyssinia . Soldiers in tanks battling warriors with spears would have been comical if it wasn't so tragic. Actually if it wasn't for Mussolini's fecklessness the AXIS might have prevailed in WW ll.

[ThatOne]

Mr. That One,

You're from Woodland Hills.

You probably think that 'The Olive Garden' is a 'fine Italian Restaurant'

Yea, and Muhammad Ali stunk out the joint, with Chuck Wepner, Joe Bugner,
Ron Lyle, Jimmy Young, Alfredo Evangelista and Ken Norton III.

'With Six You Get Egg-Roll'

Hate context. I can play that game.

It's funny that you choose all the fights when Ali was past his prime . At least he wasn't the first heavyweight to lose his title to a light heavyweight in his first fight as a heavyweight nor did he lose to Eurotrash like Brian Nielsen.


I'm not a big Olive Garden fan but I can pick up your relatives in Boyle Heights and take them to the one in Burbank. They can even keep their EBT cards in their pockets. When I go for a walk I walk past the headquarters for Universal Music. Your relatives In Boyle Heights walk past a recycling center.

[HomicideHenry]

This is quite contradictory. Fitzsimmons gets credit for his fights at all weights and Tunney is penalized for not fighting enough at heavyweight? I don't rate either of them near the top 10, but that reasoning is beyond bizarre.

Fitzsimmons beat a prime Jim Corbett, and defeated several top flight heavyweight contenders. Tunney defeated an old, inactive Jack Dempsey and most the men he fought at heavyweight prior to Dempsey were former light heavyweights or were fringe guys.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

LOL, I'm aware of their records. You didn't address why one gets credit for his career at all weights and the other is judged solely at heavyweight.

[Dart340]

No matter who Duce ranked where he was going to catch hell from someone at the least and everyone at most.

I wouldn't even know where to begin with a list of who was greatest in their era and I'd have to be a dedicated historian like Klompton to speak with any relevance. I know that firsthand knowledge is important as having been in my peak of fandom and involvement during Larry Holmes' reign, I wouldn't know how dominant he was perceived as being if I hadn't been in the midst of it.

He rated Ali fifth, which somehow I find surprising nonetheless.

[ThatOne]

Mr. Dart 340,

I could have rated Muhammad #1, and they would still be 'Bitching'.

When evaluating Cassius Clay in 'Championship Bouts', I throw the Sonny Liston bouts in the 'Trash Bin'.

Then of course, he was on the 'Old Man Campaign'.

* Floyd Patterson was injured
* George Chuvalo was a fill-in, that Cassius actually avoided in December 1963.
* Brian London was, well Brian London.
* Henry Cooper was called a 'Bum' by Cassius in June 1963.
* Karl Mildenberger was the #1 WBA ranked Challenger, and did deserve a Championship Bout.
* Cleveland Williams, was a 'Mercy Fight' to help the Big Cat pay his bills.
* Ernie Terrell, was the Best of the Bunch, but was really not that good as seen in following bouts.
* Zora Folley was called 'old' in 1962.

The Heavyweight Division was a 'mess' from 1962 thru 1967.

The Rabbit threw out his back. That's what happens when you hit air.

They should have thrown Sonny Liston in the trash bin after he was exposed by a real boxer.

Oh, nice job of ignoring every thing he did after the Second Coming which includes wins over Jerry Quarry, Bob Foster, Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Ron Lyle, and Ken Norton.

Since I like to play three dimensional chess I have my answers prepared when you bring up a shot Ali's lackluster performances or worse.

[ThatOne]

That Girl,

Sir Larry Holmes was all of Age 47+, {35 lbs.} over his fighting weight,
and in his 70th Professional Bout, when he fought the 'undefeated'
Danish Superman Brian Nielsen.

Muhammad Ali at Age 47,,,,,,,,,, was not even allowed to drive......

Now you are you questioning my gender. How cute. When I pick up your relatives in Boyle Heights and take them to the Olive Garden. Remember our previous tete a tete... They can testify to my manliness... If Carl's Jr. is more their style I can take them there too...Just tell them they can leave their EBT card at home.

Oh, how old was Larry when he became the first heavyweight in history to lose his title to a light heavyweight challenger making his first heavyweight appearance?

But at least Larry made a somewhat better showing against their common opponent though the loss was equally ignominious.

I'll let you figure it out.

[ThatOne]

Jack Dempsey was the man,,,,,,

Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali would have never made it back in the 1910's and 1920's, unless
he hooked up with the old man William Faversham, Sr.

Without any 'publicity' {Television and Howard Cosell}, Cassius would have been
a 'fringe contender' from Kentucky.

What was Tex Rickard doing if not generating publicity for Dempsey?

BTW, if Ali lived in that era he would have been Jack Johnson, Stokely Carmichael, Nat Turner, and Malcom X on steroids.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Jack Dempsey was the man,,,,,,

Cassius Clay or Muhammad Ali would have never made it back in the 1910's and 1920's, unless
he hooked up with the old man William Faversham, Sr.

Without any 'publicity' {Television and Howard Cosell}, Cassius would have been
a 'fringe contender' from Kentucky.

What was Tex Rickard doing if not generating publicity for Dempsey?

BTW, if Ali lived in that era he would have been Jack Johnson, Stokely Carmichael, Nat Turner, and Malcom X on steroids.

Bwahahahaha, Johnson would have made Ali look prim and proper.

[ThatOne]

Big Difference,

Jack Dempsey could walk into s setting and not say a word, and you knew he was 'The Man'.

Cassius Clay, had to enter a setting like a 'Circus Act', with 'Bells and Whistles'.

"If you sacrifice class, you can become famous very easily."

"... A fierce fighter and a man of peace... "The real mystery, I guess, is how he (Ali) stayed so pretty," "It probably had to do with his beautiful soul."

-George Walker Bush

-43rd President of the United States


"If you sacrifice class, you can become famous very easily."

Il Manichino

-Assistant manager at Jack In The Box

[keithmoonhangover]

Il Duce.

I understand that you're a Dempsey man. Hell, I'm a Dempsey man. I think the Dempsey that beat Willard was one of the most ferocious fighters ever to walk the planet.

I know that Jack was the most famous man on the planet for a while there and his impact on boxing and sport in general was huge.

I can look past his years of activity.

I can look past the conspiricies regarding the Willard win.

I call look past him not fighting Harry Wills.

I buy into the theory that he threw the fight, when he lost in the first round to Fireman Jim Flynn.

None of that matters. As I said, I'm a Dempsey man.

But I cannot accept that Dempsey achieved more in his career than Ali. No sir. 100% not.

[BoxBuzz]

Jack in the box makes a very unique and addictive taco. But it's not much good for ya.
And I do sorta like their burgers.

So...Il Duce......based on what your servin' up....I gotta say.... I'll have fries with that.

[BoxBuzz]

Well if you mean I think Toney Galento's opinion was a fair one, early on, and that's what you call it...ok.

I just look at performance....I'm not all that impressed with labels.

I think Ali earns my respect on his performance alone...as does Frazier, Dempsey, Foreman, Moore, Monzon...etc.

And as far as the fries go.....I didn't know Jack in the Box operated any restaraunts out of India. I actually thought you were located around the NY area.

[yancey]

Keith Moon,

You're a great drummer, but John Bonham was more consistent.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali had the benefit of Television and an intense Public Relations team.

Plus, a third-rate Brooklyn Lawyer turned ABC Broadcaster by the name of 'Howie the Shill' playing
up everything for him.

Don't be sucked in by the 'Ali Syndrome'. Where many found themselves, as they fell into the
'root for me because the other guy is no good trap'.

Jack Dempsey saved Boxing.

Muhammad Ali turned it into a 'circus act', and had no compassion while turning his opponent into a 'prop'.

^

Lot of truth here.

And the very last sentence of Duce's post encapsulates the reason for the resentment (not hate!) I have felt towards Ali.

He humiliated many of his opponents. Belittled them. "Great sportsman", ha.

There was no call to treat a good man like Frazier in the cruel way that he did.

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali showed compassion when he had Buster Mathis, Jimmy Ellis, and Jerry Quarry helpless and either laid off or beckoned the referee to stop the fight.

[ThatOne]

In one of the most moving moments of the night, Sports Illustrated named Muhammad Ali the sportsman of the 20th Century. With a unique combination of skill, style and character, the Greatest became a three-time heavyweight champion and the world's most adored athlete. The audience gave Ali a standing ovation, and once again the champ electrified the Garden.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/featur ... 02/awards/

[ThatOne]

The hypocrisy of a poster who berates Muhammad Ali for a lack of class calls the boxer who infamously said "Rocky Marciano can't carry my jockstrap" in a press conference where the late boxer's brother was in attendance "Sir" is astounding.

That One, keeping it real.

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali showed compassion when he had Buster Mathis, Jimmy Ellis, and Jerry Quarry helpless and either laid off or beckoned the referee to stop the fight.

Yes, that was compassion.

But, I don't believe he should get credit for that. He had been dominating each one several Rounds before
acting like a Sportsman.

For those above 'good acts' of Sportsmanship, he has a long way to go to erase his 'pathetic behavior'
in the way he acted with Floyd Patterson in November 1965.

That wasn't a Man showing Sportsmanship that night, that was 'low-rent' Cheap-Shot Artist that even
you 'That One' would call........... 'a scumbag'.

He behaved very badly against Patterson , Terrell, and Frazier, with the latter certainly undeserving of such treatment. I think Terrell asked for it. I think Floyd Patterson was a good man who thought he was doing the right thing, What's interesting is that Cus D'Amato didn't take it to heart as he remained close to Muhammad Ali until the end of his life.

He could have "killed" Quarry in their second fight but didn't. He certainly showed more mercy than Gerry Cooney did against an equally helpless Ken Norton.

[keithmoonhangover]

Keith Moon,

You're a great drummer, but John Bonham was more consistent.

Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali had the benefit of Television and an intense Public Relations team.

Plus, a third-rate Brooklyn Lawyer turned ABC Broadcaster by the name of 'Howie the Shill' playing
up everything for him.

Don't be sucked in by the 'Ali Syndrome'. Where many found themselves, as they fell into the
'root for me because the other guy is no good trap'.

Jack Dempsey saved Boxing.

Muhammad Ali turned it into a 'circus act', and had no compassion while turning his opponent into a 'prop'.

I was talking about Ali's record as a professional boxer and comparing it to Dempsey's.

Il Duce, do you think Dempsey beat better fighters than Ali?

[evrenb]

In one of the most moving moments of the night, Sports Illustrated named Muhammad Ali the sportsman of the 20th Century. With a unique combination of skill, style and character, the Greatest became a three-time heavyweight champion and the world's most adored athlete. The audience gave Ali a standing ovation, and once again the champ electrified the Garden.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/featur ... 02/awards/

Yes amazing. Thoroughly deserved. Recently watched bbc's sportsman of the century where Ali was crowned....there was no dispute....

[ThatOne]

In one of the most moving moments of the night, Sports Illustrated named Muhammad Ali the sportsman of the 20th Century. With a unique combination of skill, style and character, the Greatest became a three-time heavyweight champion and the world's most adored athlete. The audience gave Ali a standing ovation, and once again the champ electrified the Garden.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/featur ... 02/awards/

Yes amazing. Thoroughly deserved. Recently watched bbc's sportsman of the century where Ali was crowned....there was no dispute....

Obviously I think highly of him as a boxer and a cultural figure. I don't think he was without flaws and I prefer to look at him in the context of his times.

I think his treatment of Joe Frazier , which is really the source of most of the controversy , was really bad. I also think his segregationist stance which he has long, long since abandoned was regrettable and naive.

[ThatOne]

'Porky' Dan Flynn was better than Lamar 'KO' Clark.


Did Jack Dempsey beat better fighters than Muhammad Ali.

No, I think Muhammad Ali would have been Jack's best opponent.

Muhammad Ali was a little better than Gene Tunney.

Tunney was a great, scientific boxer but he was a blown up light heavyweight and nor a natural 210 pound man.

[evrenb]

I love this ;

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v ... 9Q7Nuov484


A day in the life of Ali.....the history of a lifetime to the common man....

evren

[ThatOne]

I love this ;

http://www.worldstarhiphop.com/videos/v ... 9Q7Nuov484


A day in the life of Ali.....the history of a lifetime to the common man....

evren

Muhammad Ali himself recalls an encounter with Jimmy, a young boy suffering from leukemia, who wanted to meet him before his epic fight with George Foreman in 1974. Before the boy left, Ali had a photograph taken of himself and Jimmy which he enlarged later and sent to the kid, with the inscription: “You’re going to beat cancer. I’m going to beat George. Love, Your friend, Muhammad Ali.”[10] Two weeks later Ali learned that Jimmy was in a hospital and not expected to live. Within three hours Ali was at the boy’s bedside.

When I walked in he was lying in his bed and I saw that his skin was as white as his sheets were.

Jimmy looked up with bright eyes and called out, “Muhammad, I knew you would come!”

I walked over to his bedside and said, “Jimmy, remember what I told you? I’m going to beat George Foreman and you’re going to beat cancer.”

Jimmy looked up at me and whispered, “No, Muhammad. I’m going to meet God, and I’m going to tell him that you are my friend.”

The room was silent and we were in tears. I hugged Jimmy good-bye and later that night when we returned to my training camp, none of us spoke much.[11]

A week later the boy died, and the father invited Ali to the funeral. Unable to attend, he sent Gene, his assistant. “When Gene returned from the funeral, he told [Ali] that there had been an open casket and that the autographed picture was beside Jimmy’s head.”[12]

[ThatOne]

My mind flashes back to a hotel room in New York City before the first Frazier fight. Ali was watching the news. A story came on about ancient inhabitants of a Jewish nursing home who were being evicted because they couldn’t come up with $100,000. It was cold in New York, and the thought of those old people on the street got to Ali. Without any discussion, he reached for the phone and called the TV station. He would donate the $100,000 provided his name not be used. Ali did not want trouble from the Muslims or from certain members of the Ali Circus who were chronically “in need.” Money was given, it arrived in time, old people were saved, the curtain comes down, go to black and a happy ending.