BoxRec

I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

Ezzard wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

I agree and the athletes were drawn from a bigger pool .

Ezzard wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

I think we're arguing on parallel tracks. It's not so much that Dempsey only fought white fellas or that Mikan only played against white fellas ( I hope you like American basketball or the analogy doesn't make much sense.) It's that the sport(s) became so much more competitive in the eras that followed them.

My point is just this then (as we probably are on the same side) if you had what it took to rise to the top in one era then you'd be top or close to it in another.

What goes against those guys is size.

I agree and the athletes were drawn from a bigger pool .

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

Who should Joe Louis have fought that was black pre 1942? You cant just trot out a black guy who isnt a contender and then give him a title shot for no reason. Ive never seen a legitimate argument that held any water that Louis avoided black contenders, or anyone for that matter. Dempsey on the other hand actively ducked his two top contenders. I can give him a pass on Greb but that was a no win situation whether win, lose, or draw. But the Wills thing is inexcusible. That is a major gaping hole in his record that leaves MANY question marks.

SteveO wrote:I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

x2

Before World War II, Joe Louis defended his world heavyweight title in a bout with John Henry Lewis,
a black fighter.

- Chuck Johnston

SteveO wrote:I could see him beating Patterson and Spinks but he would have lost to the others on that list. IMO.

I agree.

Il Duce wrote:

ThatOne wrote:
Joe Louis..............................Jack by W Dec 15
Rocky Marciano.....................Jack by W Dec 15
Floyd Patterson.....................Jack by KO 2
Sonny Liston.........................Jack by TKO 11
Muhammad Ali......................Jack by TKO 10
Joe Frazier............................Jack by W Dec 15
George Foreman....................Jack by KO 7
Larry Holmes........................Larry by TKO 13
Michael Spinks......................Jack by KO 3
Mike Tyson...........................Jack by KO 10
Evander Holyfield..................Jack by KO 11
Riddick Bowe........................Jack by TKO 6
Lennox Lewis........................Lennox by W Dec 15

Only Larry Holmes and Lennox Lewis had the style to defeat Jack.

your a funny guy.

I believe that the proper phrase is,,,,

Il Duce wrote:

addi wrote:I believe that the proper phrase is,,,,

MR. ADDI,


Go to 1:25.........I think you'll enjoy this.........

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... hZCJ-j_5vA

your right, I did enjoy that, i'll be laughing all day. good way to start the weekend.
your a funny guy.

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Agreed Gil, imagine him being underrated in the eyes of a poster named Dempsey?

Holyfield, Bowe, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis don't even get a maybe?

Holmes would outbox him easily, Holyfield is too tough and too skilled for him, Bowe is too skilled and too big, Tyson too ferocious and tough, and Lennox Lewis is too big and too skilled as well.

Dempsey would have a puncher's chance against Lewis, but I don't think he'd ever connect with his homerun shot against Lennox. Even if he did, there's a fair chance Lewis still rises to his feet and wins.

To say a fighter is "too tough" for Dempsey is laugable. Dempsey was also certainly more skilled than Tyson and Bowe (the latter hugely over-rated). No-one big guy like Bowe who blocks punches with his face is lasting vs Dempsey . . Jack would finish what Herbie Hide started in a couple rounds of their fight, and Hide is mediocre.
Dempsey's great advantage over Evander is superior inside fighting abilty, stamina, and punching power. It would be a great match but Holyfield would simply take too many hard shots to the body.

Lewis is the type of guy Jack loved to fight . . a cautious jab jab big man. Just seeing Lewis's awkwardness in his first round vs a shot Tyson shows me what I need to know how he'd do vs a prim Dempsey.

I could see Holmes beating Dempsey in a rematch . . that's a very good fight. But I can't see Larry, a guy who got in serious trouble vs Shavers, Weaver, and Snipes, and not think that Jack would not also find his big moment. And Dempsey was a far superior finisher to any of the 3 aformentioned.

klompton wrote:

Ezzard wrote:I get all that but Joe Louis only fought one black guy up until the war.

Johnson didn't fight any black challengers.

Dempsey should have fought Wills. I agree. But other than Wills who else was there with a huge claim?

Holmes should have fought Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas, Gerrie Coetzee and rematched Tim Witherspoon... Holmes is a great of the ring.

Who should Joe Louis have fought that was black pre 1942? You cant just trot out a black guy who isnt a contender and then give him a title shot for no reason. Ive never seen a legitimate argument that held any water that Louis avoided black contenders, or anyone for that matter. Dempsey on the other hand actively ducked his two top contenders. I can give him a pass on Greb but that was a no win situation whether win, lose, or draw. But the Wills thing is inexcusible. That is a major gaping hole in his record that leaves MANY question marks.

He didn't fight any. I didn't say he avoided them. TheOne mentioned that some basketball guy never played against black guys so is downgraded. He applied this to Dempsey too. I pointed out that Louis didn't fight any black guys either, pre-war, during his best years...

I do believe Dempsey should have fought Wills. But I can't think of a single great Heavy who didn't miss out on someone or another.

I believe that Dempsey's power, stamina and heart make him a tough match for anyone, but I think that his wild swinging style gives some of the better skilled fighters an advantage over him. Dempsey vs Marciano is going to be an amazing war, but Dempsey vs the equally tough, probably lighter hitting Holyfield less so, because Holy has considerably more smarts. I see that transpiring like De La Hoya vs Mayorga, albeit not such a pronounced difference in skill. Dempsey might put Holmes down, but if Holmes got up from the Shavers shot, he's getting up from Jack too. Ali would dance rings round him.

I'd see the Tyson and Marciano fights as hard to pick and super exciting, I'd see him winning against Spinks, knocking Patterson out, having a war against Frazier that could go either way, probably losing to Bowe, no more than a punchers chance against Lewis, getting sparked by Joe Louis with a short right as he charged in like a bull....

This is my problem when it comes to ranking Dempsey:

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-fr ... 5F4D8185F9

He was wrong to do it. Just like all the others before him.

George Foreman never beat any of the Soviets as they weren't in professional boxing at the time.

Floyd Mayweather called Pac a yellow chump and didn't sign to fight him. Holmes dropped the WBC belt and introduced the world to the IBF. Bowe never fought Lennox Lewis.

Ezzard wrote:He was wrong to do it. Just like all the others before him.

George Foreman never beat any of the Soviets as they weren't in professional boxing at the time.

Floyd Mayweather called Pac a yellow chump and didn't sign to fight him. Holmes dropped the WBC belt and introduced the world to the IBF. Bowe never fought Lennox Lewis.

George was putting a worse hurt on the Russians at the Olympics ...

Floyd's racist remarks were shameful. He of all people should have known better. That being said if you look at all the information that's out there it's hard to conclusively say who ducked who....Bowe comes off a chump for ducking Lewis. I don't think that's in dispute. As for Holmes I don't know what the politics were so I won't comment.

We live in more enlightened times.

Il Duce wrote:Cassius Clay,

Never fought
* Thad Spencer {1966- 1967} instead he fought Brian London
* Amos Lincoln {1965 - 1966} instead fought George Chuvalo
* Eddie Machen {1963 - 1964} instead he avoided him in late-1963
* Harold Johnson {1962-1963} instead he took on Henry Cooper

All early bouts that were avoided,

Did he announce he would enforce the "color line" during his reign(s)?

Il Duce wrote:Cassius Clay,

Never fought
* Thad Spencer {1966- 1967} instead he fought Brian London
* Amos Lincoln {1965 - 1966} instead fought George Chuvalo
* Eddie Machen {1963 - 1964} instead he avoided him in late-1963
* Harold Johnson {1962-1963} instead he took on Henry Cooper

All early bouts that were avoided,

If he had fought Spencer, Lincoln, Machen and Johnson instead, then you could accuse him of avoiding London, Chuvalo, Cooper etc. :-)

dempseyfire wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Agreed Gil, imagine him being underrated in the eyes of a poster named Dempsey?

Holyfield, Bowe, Holmes, Tyson and Lewis don't even get a maybe?

Holmes would outbox him easily, Holyfield is too tough and too skilled for him, Bowe is too skilled and too big, Tyson too ferocious and tough, and Lennox Lewis is too big and too skilled as well.

Dempsey would have a puncher's chance against Lewis, but I don't think he'd ever connect with his homerun shot against Lennox. Even if he did, there's a fair chance Lewis still rises to his feet and wins.

To say a fighter is "too tough" for Dempsey is laugable. Dempsey was also certainly more skilled than Tyson and Bowe (the latter hugely over-rated). No-one big guy like Bowe who blocks punches with his face is lasting vs Dempsey . . Jack would finish what Herbie Hide started in a couple rounds of their fight, and Hide is mediocre.
Dempsey's great advantage over Evander is superior inside fighting abilty, stamina, and punching power. It would be a great match but Holyfield would simply take too many hard shots to the body.

Lewis is the type of guy Jack loved to fight . . a cautious jab jab big man. Just seeing Lewis's awkwardness in his first round vs a shot Tyson shows me what I need to know how he'd do vs a prim Dempsey.

I could see Holmes beating Dempsey in a rematch . . that's a very good fight. But I can't see Larry, a guy who got in serious trouble vs Shavers, Weaver, and Snipes, and not think that Jack would not also find his big moment. And Dempsey was a far superior finisher to any of the 3 aformentioned.

I didn't mean Holyfield was too tough for Dempsey to be able to hang in there and fight with him. I meant he's too tough for Dempsey to stop him, and I'm right about that. Holyfield is faster than Jack, bigger than Jack, stronger than Jack. He would kick his ass not a doubt in my mind. He does have a puncher's chance against Lennox Lewis, but I don't think he'd get the job done.

Considering the way Gene Tunney owned him with movement and jabbing, I think Holmes would win virtually every round over Dempsey.

Il Duce wrote:Excellent Analysis..........Mr. Dempsey

The 'kids' that post on here, just don't understand that Jack's hand-speed..... was his power.

No 185 lb. 'Fighter' ever punched with that kind of hand-speed + power.

Jack was a 'Fighter'.

Prime vs. Prime

Only the 'Great' Larry Holmes would have beaten him, because of the greatest 'power' left jab in the business.

This "kid" knows plenty about Jack Dempsey. I know he went 1-2-2 with pudgy but quick footed Willie Meehan in 1917-18. I know he wrecked Fred Fulton in 1 round. I've seen his fights with Tunney, Carpentier, Luis Firpo and of course the Jess Willard massacre which I would still say is the most brutal example of a Champion losing his title I've ever seen.

Carpentier wasn't as big as Dempsey, Firpo was a crude raw slugger who just winged away with his big right hand, Jess Willard was a big clumsy oaf who got hammered mercilessly by Jack, Gene Tunney was a guy that could box and move and he won 19 out of 20 rounds against Dempsey.