BoxRec

no? no location where i can find this directory? i didnt think so.

"i dont have to prove anything" - the last refuge of a liar.

can we get an elementary school math teacher to explain to Douche how it is easy to bridge the gap in several differrent ways given the ticket prices and empty seats left to sell, without even taking into account that a portion of the attendance was possibly if not likely unpaid (which would make it even easier)?

your edited comment about norris further shows your ignorance of the era. anyone who knows anything about boxing at that tim, norris, and that fight wouldnt have said that.

why keep it secret? why not just tell me so we can move on? the only reason is because you have something to hide.... like a lie.

Quit running and back up your statements.

put up or shut up. im still waiting on citations and sources for these fictional accounts you keep posting that refute every verifiable source. i realize your parents are republican and therefore you dont get the concept that repeating a lie over and over wont make it true.

Come Douche, all you have to do is cite your sources and let me know where I can double check this "business record" and "tax directory" its easy. Can you imagine how stupid you can make me look? No? I didnt think so. The gate was just over $77,000, which was a record but wasnt a financial success. $77000 - $85000 = a loss.

Il Duce wrote:'GREAT TURN-OUT AT COLISEUM'

Denver Restaurant Owner and Fight Promoter - Milt Wilner was in a joyous mood today,
as his Boxing Show Monday Night reached his expectations of breaking the Denver
record for a Live Gate at a Boxing Event.

Milt Wilner, 'It was amazing that we could pull in 9252 fans on the same night that the
American Association was having there All-Star Game. They drew in over 14,000 -
giving Denver it's 'Greatest Twin Sports Night' ever'.

It would have been nice if we sold out and reached '6-Figures', but we did over $90,000
and that is amazing. If there wasn't an All-Star Game, we would have had an overflow
of Sports Fans here, which would have been too much to handle.

Both fighters performed well, and even though Zora Folley lost, his Manager Bill Swift
said he would like a rematch here, maybe in a few months after Zora heals his aching
head.

I again would like to thank the Denver City Council, as they contributed to this Boxing
Event, and helped make the show one Great Event.

Jesus now I see how pathetic you really are. I read this and before I could respond you went back and edited in details that you found in AP reports like the fact that it was held on the same night as the all star game. Nowhere will you or anyone else find that the City Council paid for seats or that the actual gross gate was $90,000 (and I will say again, if the city had to buy up seats to give the impression that event was a success, which they didnt, how does the prove your point?) Ive dealt with some seriously fucked up people in the past but you take the cake. Ive never seen anyone so afraid to admit that they are wrong that they will lie to this degree even when its so unbelievably obvious. Its just downright bizarre. To put this into perspective: you cannot admit that you were wrong about this event not making money and about it not being filmed that youve made up all of this other shit, basically because you knee jerk quoted an estimate by the promoter (and we all know promoters NEVER inflate their numbers ). How screwy is that. Are you that insecure that somebody might actually have a better handle on this stuff than what you get out of google news? Post your sources for the disputed information. Shut me up right now. How many times have I caught you lying and all you had to do was post a source to prove me wrong but wont. How many times have you made up sources or tried to get away with pretending to quote a source but leaving out the vital information that would help one track it down? Legion. When you arent lying you have no problem posting links to googlenews, Sports Illustrated, or citing sources from magazines. Yet, for some reason every time you get caught in a lie you refuse to back it up. Gee, why is that?

Post your sources for the information above. Dont go on one of your patented tangents to try to deflect the issue. For once back up your bullshit.

"MILT WILNER TAKES THE GOOD WITH THE BAD"

Denver, Col. -After a night of highs and lows promoter Milt Wilner was all smiles. Despite a record a setting gate of $77,406.55 from an impressive crowd of 9,252 the gate receipts failed to cover the cost to stage the event. The purse of $75,000 split between the two fighters, $40,000 going to Zora Folley and $25,000 paid to Liston, in addition to incidental expenses of $10,000, left Wilner sitting with Folley at the losers table. However, Wilner, ever the optimist, was already looking over his road map for the future. Milt has big plans for Liston and sees a championship in the future for the morose ex-convict from Philadelphia who has now taken a step over the prostrate form of Zora Folley towards a possible go with Floyd Patterson. It appears however that Wilner will be forced to sit on those plans for the time being as Patterson seems destined to face the mighty "toonder punch" of Ingemar Johansson once more. Not content to rest on his laurels Liston has already agreed to face number 3 ranked Eddie Machen in Seattle shortly."

See, its not that difficult, anyone can make up some bullshit. It doesnt make it true.

Il Duce....appears you missed the point of his inclusionary statement.

Confabulation.....it's an art form.

And you sir....appear to be an aspiring artist.

Duce is a valuable member of this board. He brings a daily dose of humor. Don't be so rough on the old fella.

Il Duce wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Il Duce....appears you missed the point of his inclusionary statement.

Confabulation.....it's an art form.

And you sir....appear to be an aspiring artist.

Mr Box-Buzz,

You can't be taken seriously anymore, as you are in Mr. Klompton's Camp, and are not
objective in your views.

You Score arguments like the UPI scored Muhammad Ali fights.......Always give the Round to Muhammad...

Do you really believe Milt Wilner 'lost' money on that Promotion in Denver.

Research, Milt Wilner,,,,,,,Have you ever heard of 'massaging the books'.

Milt Wilner 'never' lost a Dollar on any business venture in his life............'That's A Fact'

The man owned several restaurants in Denver. Have you ever worked in that business,
where we take in 'Tax-Free Dollars'.

You do know what that term means, don't you........

Buzz is a paragon of objectivity and a beacon of fairness in a world where those commodities should be valued even higher

Il Duce,


Is it your opinion that I can not be taken seriously? If so, I'm ok with that, as I do have a sense of humor and often choose to communicate in humor mode. As long as you can take my contributions "thoughtfully". I'm good.

Now, You have shared what I believe to be many many other "opinions" on our forum. I'm good with every one of them.

Except for the many many many opinions that you would have us believe are something "other" than opinions.

This is the first, last and only issue I have with your style of contributing.

You don't seem to offer up any "opinions" Not sure I've seen a single one. You seem to only offer up "facts" to share with those of us who are "not quite caught up".

It would do you well to be mindful that it may or may not be a fact, that I can not be taken seriously.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. Buzz,

I did offer up an opinion.

That you were not objective in your view on the 'light-hearted discussion between Klompton and myself
regarding the Denver Coliseum Extravaganza.

I do respect your honest views in other matters, but here,,,,,,,,,,you fell short.

As for Mr. Klompton, I'm not sure he could find Denver on a Map, let alone know where
the Coliseum is.

Mr. Klompton seems like a most earnest fella. Is there really room here for such abuse?

all facts you didnt know until i told u. u arent setting the goal post here douche. The only person who says that the choice seats were sold out is you. Sorry but Im not taking your word for it. Youve been caught lying in just such a scenario to try to save face far too many times. Should I list them all out? if u want to prove me wrong post these mysterious sources that exist nowhere else, or tell us where they can be found. otherwise your continued refusal to do so should be taken as an admission (once again) of your lies. one of us has cited verifiable sources. the other refuses to, essentially asking us to take the tarnished words of a liar at face value. everytime you post, ill continue to ask for those sources which u cant produce. if u cant produce them then they dont exist. im waiting, the ball is back in your court.

oh so now you have top secret figures that werent released to the public. lol. the lies just keep getting more elaborate.

Let me explain something to you. Promoters inflate numbers all the time to give the appearance of success. They inflate PPV numbers, They inflate gate numbers, etc. There are two reasons why someone would lie and try to give the appearance of smaller numbers: 1. To pay less tax, and 2. To pay less to the fighters (if they were working on a percentage). Youve backed yourself into a corner here for three reasons 1. It was Wilner who inflated the numbers by estimating he did $90,000, so he obviously wasnt trying to under report. 2. The fighters were working on guarantees, so lying about the size of the gate wouldnt have allowed him to pay them less. 3. According to you you are getting these alternate numbers from either a "business record directory" or "tax records" (you cant get your story straight on that and refuse to tell anyone where you found these records). Obviously these would be public records so by reporting them he wouldnt be hiding the true numbers from the public and by reporting them on tax records he wouldnt be saving money on the taxes. Sorry, your little fiction doesnt add up. According to you Milt Wilner underreported the gate to the public for some reason, then publicly stated that he estimated it to be larger, then went and reported it as being even larger to some fictional records that you cant produce and cant even tell us where you saw them... clearly more bullshit and sidewinding.

go back and read my post. your scenario makes no sense and doesnt even match your original story. you have yet to cite one verifiable source that shows the city council kicked back to milt, which would still not refute my point about the gate.

your comparison is incorrect for two reasons: 1. you use the example of a fight in 1973 as a comparison but dont give the ticket prices. thats a vital bit of information dont you think? now, i know the ticket prices for ellis-lyle... do you? if so post them here so we can get a real comparison. you wont. 2. a packed house would have brought $110000. those are wilners numbers, not mine, meaning that ticket prices for lyle-ellis were different and thus no accurate comparison. were you old enough to have sat in on bus. admin. 101 you would have caught that.

No, Im saying that they were higher in 1973 you tool. Which would explain how 11446 seats in 1973 totalled more than 120000 while in 1960 11400 would have totalled 110000. Its simple math which you claim to have a solid grasp on.

Once again: PROVIDE YOUR SOURCES FOR YOUR FIGURES.

According to you Wilner estimated that he would do 90,000. Then he publicly released that he don 77,000. Then he secretly filed that he had done 91,000... Thats come convoluted reporting there. In reality there are only two figures here: The actual $77,000+ gate and the $90,000 that Wilner ESTIMATED before the actual gate was tabulated. Nowhere will you or anyone else be able to find a source that says anything about Wilner grossing 91,000 plus. Nowhere. That claim came from you and you cant back it up. If you could you would. Instead you want to keep trying to muddy the waters, like you always do, and cant even keep your stories or your figures straight. If you, or anyone else can dig up any sources that refute my numbers then Im sitting willing to accept them. Yet the only numbers you can bring up are invented entirely by you and not supported by a single shred of citeable material. Its a simple case of you once again being caught in a lie and not able to back it up.

Il Duce wrote:Mr Evren B.

Good Call,

That's me on the left,,,,,,,,and the 'Flamer' on the right is Mr. Klompton.

Not that there's anything wrong with it if that's your bent but both the young and older gentleman looked like they smoke a pole or two.

Just as an example,

Jump ahead 14 years to July 16, 1974 at The Coliseum, Denver

Ron Lyle vs. Jimmy Ellis

Attendance; 11,446 {Sell-Out and sets Denver Record}

Gate Recepits; $120,325 {1974 Money]


Yes but the ticket prices were more in 1974. Dont you think that would have been an important bit of information to include? Higher ticket prices with a larger house = a bigger gate.


No Way a 'Sell-Out' with 11,446 in July 1960 does $110,000 --------- No Way, No How.

A 'full-blown' sell out in 1960 would have pulled in less than $100,000 no matter how you
want to slice it.

The numbers say a full-house in July 1960, would have pulled in around $94,000 in 'Gate Receipts'

Wrong. My numbers are Wilner's numbers. A full house was expected to bring $110,000:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=TN ... 3%2C399684

Every other source you look at will confirm that.


If Fight Purses for Zora Folley {$40,000} and Sonny Liston {$25,000}, plus $10,000 in agreed
upon up-front Training Expenses, puts a base out-lay of $75,000. Then add in the Lease Fee
for the Coliseum, plus Operating Expenses of at least another $13,500 and that puts you at a
minimum of $87,500 - not including other 'quiet costs' that always pop up.

I used Wilner's statement that expenses totalled $10,000. So yes, the $75,000 purse plus the $10,000 expenses would have been $85,000. Meaning had he sold out and done the gate of $110,000 as he had hoped he would have made a nice profit. Instead the gate was $77406.55 meaning he lost money.

And, you have the fight on a night that the American Association is holding the AAA Minor League
All-Star Game at Mile High Stadium, where you know they are going to take away at least some
of your 'attendance'.

Why in the hell would Milt Wilner take such a 'risk', when his window was so small to make a
profit, unless he had 'concessions'...........

You have provided no evidence of any "concessions" this is simply a story you made up along with the gate figure that you concocted to save face. In reality Wilner went ahead with the promotion because he was angling at getting a heavyweight championship fight with Liston in Denver in the near future and this was a big step in that direction. All of the articles on the bouts build up mention that Wilner went ahead with the promotion after Moore's fight with Schoepner pulled off the planned double header because of this knowing full well that his margins would be lower and his risk higher. Your supposed genius business man screwed the pooch on this one. Not only did he lose money on the deal but Liston never again fought in Denver.

This is pointless, now you are just restating what Ive already said. Ive stated my case and backed it up. Youve lied and cant back it up. I win. Anyone who thinks differently can produce something that supports your numbers. Ill be back when that happens (i.e. when hell freezes over).

Il Duce wrote:And you Sir,

Have not posted anything that you have promised.........

So, what you're staying is that,
Live Gate..............$77,700
Expenses..............$10,000

Gross/Net.............$67,700

Plus the Fighters Expenses
Fight Purse...........$75,000
Additional Costs.......$3500

Total...................$78,500

Milt Wilner lost......$10,800 {2013 Dollar Value = $70,000}

Sounds like one 'bad' businessman. How the hell did he become a Millionaire.

Him being a millionaire has nothing to do
with the argument really...does it. Il Duce...its ok to be wrong sometimes...honestly...this is like a boxing match between Mike Tyson and Bright Spider...:-( .

Apparently if one agrees with the big Duce, one's brilliance increases, perhaps even exponentially.

I have to admit, it's very tempting.

I've always wanted to be a wise guy.

Some reflection while, sipping a Boston Lager is what is called for here.