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Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 02:52
by bollox
Aden wrote:Guys, I'm still not ruling out middleweight. Rocky was in shape at 184lb but he wasn't ripped to shreds and he hadn't cut. 24lbs isn't that much when you think what guys do these days. Marciano is sometimes listed as 5'11" but 5'9"-5'10" is more realistic I think. His stocky legs kept him in the division, his upper body was not that of a heavyweight. What he achieved is remarkable considering.
Not long after this pic was taken Ali started jabbing Marciano's toupee off. Marciano asked him to stop it which Ali didn't. One full force body punch put an immediate stop to Ali's shenanigans. Not bad for a 40 something blown up supermiddle ey?
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 03:19
by polecateddy
stevedoc wrote:SamWise72 wrote:Polecateddy is a confirmed idiot. Don't feed.
cheers thanks for the tip
Naff off morons. I don't think it's that far fetched to suggest Marciano would have struggled in different eras with his style.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 03:33
by JimStone
HomicideHenry wrote:As hard as Rocky trained, dont you think in his own time he would have tried to of conquered the LHW division too if he were able? The answer has to be no. There's no way he could of got any smaller than he did unless he dehydrated, and that could have potentially killed him.
If you look at pictures of Rocky in the low 180s, he's in decent shape but he's still carrying quite a bit of surplus - Skeehan et al using phrases such as "trained to a razor's edge" is layman's talk. Fat comes off different people in different places at different rates, depending on the distribution of fat cells. Even on fight night Rocky's legs were fat (relative term) and it's clear to a trained eye he could've shed a fair bit more weight and then cut (24 hour+ weigh ins). I'm convinced he could've easily done SM today and I've still not ruled out middleweight.
This is not some arse about face insult to Marciano, it's actually a big compliment.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 03:43
by bollox
Never in a million years would a fighter with those tree trunk legs gotten down to LHW let alone anywhere remotely close to SMW or MW
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 04:37
by SamWise72
I believe he could have dropped 5-10 pounds, specially with cutting. Why didn't he? Same reason Vander didn't stick at cruiserweight. He could make a lot more money at heavy, and given that he went undefeated there, why WOULD he have fought at light heavy?
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 04:38
by Senya13
Aden wrote:If you look at pictures of Rocky in the low 180s, he's in decent shape but he's still carrying quite a bit of surplus. Even on fight night Rocky's legs were fat (relative term)
Yeah, right, quite a lot of fat on these pics of him at 184 pounds...
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 04:44
by bollox
I reckon Michael Olajide could have beaten him at middle or supermiddle. No sweat
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 04:56
by JimStone
There is (relatively) quite a lot of fat on him, especially in the hamstring and gluteus region. These areas are notoriously difficult to shift weight from if you are unfortunate enough to have a lot of fat cells in that area (it's a 'problem' women tend to have more than men) but taking off a few extra pounds would be a cinch with what we know about macros today.
A cut alone could bag him 12lbs so he'd only actually have to lose four additional pounds of tissue to be able to do super middleweight comfortably.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:12
by Senya13
A lot of fat in the hamstring area? I didn't see a smiley face in your post, but I hope you joked about it.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:22
by JimStone
Senya13 wrote:A lot of fat in the hamstring area? I didn't see a smiley face in your post, but I hope you joked about it.
I kid you not. I don't mean for a moment that he's a blubbery mess, but I'm not seeing cuts, striations, and veins. He's enough fat on him to lose the tissue required to set him up for a cut to at least super middleweight. I'm convinced of that.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:29
by evrenb
With the above in mind would it be fair to say that 90% of todays heavyweights could get down to welterweights?
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:39
by Senya13
I know it from my own experience. Even when I was down in weight till my stomach was flat, my calves still looked large and square, and not particularly muscled (only if I stood on my tiptoes). I wasn't doing body building, just reducing weight, jogging and dieting.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:46
by JimStone
evrenb wrote:With the above in mind would it be fair to say that 90% of todays heavyweights could get down to welterweights?
No.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:49
by Syntax Error
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:56
by evrenb
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 05:58
by Senya13
Compare Chris Byrd at heavyweight
http://media.mlive.com/sportsnow_impact ... 337800.jpg
and at light heavyweight
http://d2fmj9q21jcbgm.cloudfront.net/Ac ... os1_lx.jpg
Difference in weight between the photos is 35-40 pounds. If there's fat in the upper version, it's not in the
hamstring area.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 06:45
by SamWise72
What's the point being made there though? That Byrd isn't built like Marciano? I'm only saying he could drop 10lbs knowing what we now do about making weight. Aden is suggesting he could drop another 7. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 06:47
by Ezzard
How would Rocky do against today's light heavies?
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 07:17
by Senya13
SamWise72 wrote:I'm only saying he could drop 10lbs knowing what we now do about making weight. Aden is suggesting he could drop another 7. It doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility to me.
Where exactly do you see 10 pounds of excessive weight on above photos?
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 07:34
by JimStone
Senya, the point is he would only have to lose approximately 5lbs of tissue to make 168lbs.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 07:48
by Senya13
184 1/2 - 168 = 16 1/2 pounds. Taking 65% as the percentage of water in adult man's body, that's 120 pounds. 2% loss of water cuts your workrate by 20%, loss of apetite, difficulty of speaking. 4% - nausea, giddiness, dog-tired. Anything beyond that is much worse.
2% from 120 pounds is 2.5 pounds, even if he somehow gets rid of 4%, that's 5 pounds that, even with 24 hours to rehydrate, would make him physically unable to fight in a style that was usual for him. So you can subtract 3 pounds of water from those 185 pounds, where do you see 14 pounds more that could be cut normally, without affecting him any significantly? He'd be either a corpse in the ring if he dropped to 168 pounds, or a cripple who cut off his arm or leg to make that weight.
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 08:23
by JimStone
Senya, you need to get a better handle on cutting weight, there is plenty of info out there that explains it.
Have a look at this picture of GSP on the scales. Six days before this weigh-in Georges weighed 194lbs. He weighed in at 170lbs and then entered the ring the following night at 192lbs. During that process he lost only a few ounces of actual tissue the rest was carbohydrate (glycogen) and water manipulation.
On fight night he looked like this (22lbs heavier than on the scales the day earlier), at least as lean as the Rock:
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 08:24
by Counter-puncher
2% water loss cuts your workrate by 20%: FACT
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 08:26
by palooka
Marciano has got fat legs
Re: What weight division would Marciano have fought in today?
Posted: 08 Oct 2013, 08:34
by JimStone
Counter-puncher wrote:2% water loss cuts your workrate by 20%: FACT
I know why he's produced that stat. There's a rule of thumb that for every 1% you are dehydrated you lose 10% in performance and it's actually not bad. We used to instil that idea into young soldiers to make sure they kept drinking fluids. Obviously if you pushed these guys that do huge cuts from the scales directly into the ring they'd perform terribly. That they've got adequate time to rehydrate and refuel though makes the point moot.
