BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:A young guy at the 'peak of his career', with great legs and hand-speed, and everything else.

A 'natural' 152 lb. boxer as well.

Defeats a 'smaller guy', who was 4-years past his 'absolute best'.

And who already beat the 'kid' up, 6-Months earlier.

Well said. I am not saying that Leonard would have never beaten Duran at his very best, but, EVERYBODY KNOWS, that that Duran was not the same Duran like in the Montreal bout. Anybody that thinks that that was the same guy five months earlier is either a delusional Sugar Ray fan or need glasses or both.

Hairy Arse wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Well, then maybe we can also say, that at their best..... Duran beats Leonard every time....

When NOT at their best...Leonard beats Duran.

Nope, you're wrong. Leonard had a virus in the week of the first fight and his weight dropped as low as 143.


Duran beat a completely drained, depleted fighter in Montreal who 'fought the wrong fight' and still barely scraped by.


Great win on paper, but doesn't tell the whole story.

That is a bunch of BS. Now Leonard had a virus? Fought the "wrong fight"? Gimmie a break. Duran outboxed him and beat him and that is all to it.

Sorry son, but if we're using excuses here then the one I used is every bit as reasonable and valid as the one the other guy used. The virus thing was reported before the fight, so I'm making that one up.

Il Duce wrote:

Hairy Arse wrote:*quote pulled straight from teh Duce's vast, alphabetically-sorted collection of old, laminated newspapers.

Felicidad Duran,

"My husband kicked that boy's Heiney."

That quote is nowhere near vulgar enough to be attributed to Duran's wife.

There are no excuses, they went 1-1 when it mattered. I'd have loved to see Ray reciprocate the rematch, but he never did that. The first fight was great, the second one was not. Duran > Leonard career wise. That sums it all up nicely.

Il Duce wrote:

Hairy Arse wrote:*quote pulled straight from teh Duce's vast, alphabetically-sorted collection of old, laminated newspapers.

Felicidad Duran,

"My husband kicked that boy's Heiney."

I have lived in FL and CA nearly all my life; two of the states with the highest Latino populations in the U.S. I have never heard a Latino or Latina utter the word "Heiney." I need a citation for that. In this instance I will violate my own prohibition on making homophobic comments and say that sounds like something a half a fag would say,

Il Duce wrote:That One,

I believe you just made a 'racist statement'.

Well you little 'bigot you', and portraying yourself as a self-righteous dude too.

I never head a 'Latino' say the word heiney.

You must be one of those 'not in my backyard liberals'.........

Good For You Jack !!!

I stand by that. Using effete language like that is a good way to get your isht pushed in.

Oh, and I don't know what your obscurantist topics have to do with my Latino brothers and sisters. They have everything to do with your proclivity for prevarication.

"heiney", mi culo!

Todavía a la espera de que citaion

Il Duce wrote:With That Statement,

I have lived in Los Angeles and Florida, where there is a large Latino population, and I have
never heard a Latino or Latina say 'heiney'.

Are you kidding me 'whitey'.

That sounds like an Al Gore statement,,,,,,,,"I'm a white liberal, so I know what the Latino's feel."

You made up a quotation. I asked you for proof. You couldn't provide it.

I'm still waiting for it.

"heiney", mi culo!

And it's racist to assume only a member of a culture can understand it. But I can understand why you think the way you do.

I just want to be clear on what's valid here.

A virus is not a good excuse for Leonard, but Duran's wife is a good enough excuse for him?

Duran's prime evaporated in a few months because.......well his wife spent a lot of money? Roberto fvcking Duran was that fragile? I'm supposed to believe that?

Or is it possible, that they were somewhat evenly matched, and both great fighters? I know it's a crazy idea.

They were both great fighters. But no way should Duran have beaten Leonard. Ray had every physical advantage. And he lost the first fight because Roberto was just so good that night.

Leonard was as good as a fighter gets. So was Roberto.

The difference for me is that this was Ray's weight class. He was supposed to win. Just like Hagler was supposed to beat him.

So we are back to the Roberto " Forever a Lightweight" Duran? Guess what Roberto Duran, is not the the only fighter to ever move up in weight class. The vast majority of fighters do this and most have little problem handling it. Hearns did it. Benitez did it, easy to come up with dozens of other examples.

Roberto Duran had been fighting outside of the lightweight class for years. Not that comparable to Leonard-Hagler. Leonard had never weighed that much for fight before. More importantly, Leonard had a fight in 3 years.

Guess what, some of us just don't buy the argument that is a valid excuse for every fight that Duran lost. (Of course we just are supposed assume that his opponents were always at 100%)

Duran-Leonard I was a fair fight and Duran won by 15 round decision.
Duran-Leonard II was a fair fight and Leonard won by 8th round TKO.
Enough of the crybaby excuses.

I think Duran was a better all around fighter at Welterweight. The size of the opposition makes him less dominant matching up with the greats, but he was never better than he was against Palomino & Leonard. His defense was incredible.

Agreed on the crybaby excuses, I've definitely had enough of "Fought the wrong fight", you can apply that to any loss.

Ambling Alp II wrote:How about we say really what happened? Duran won a 15 round decision the first time. Leonard won the rematch by 8th round TKO.

Because this is boxrec and almost every poster has every excuse when his favorite boxer loses or when his least favorite boxer wins or why one bout between two opponents is more important than the other. This isn't to eliminate the possibility of legitimate excuses and explanations or why one bout between the two same opponents is more important than the other but most open minded people can agree on when those legitimate excuses and explanations occur and why one bout between two opponents is more important than another.

Il Duce wrote:Another 'shill' excuse made up by Angelo Dundee and Mike Trainer.........

Duran will tell you himself that excuses come after a fight, not before it. If Dundee and trainer were reporting this following a fight, you might have a point (first time for everything.)

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'd have loved to see Ray reciprocate the rematch, but he never did that.

Why would he?

Sorry geezer, but like I told the other lad: you can't blindly accept one excuse and then ignore the other because it doesn't fit your agenda. Few fighters make excuses before a fight - let alone a 'super fight' - but plenty make them after a fight, as Duran routinely did throughout his career.



Deal with it. 8)

Hairy Arse wrote:Sorry geezer, but like I told the other lad: you can't blindly accept one excuse and then ignore the other because it doesn't fit your agenda. Few fighters make excuses before a fight - let alone a 'super fight' - but plenty make them after a fight, as Duran routinely did throughout his career.



Deal with it. 8)

I was around for the fights and watched the current documentary on ESPN. I didn't see SRL make an excuse then or now. I see Duran is still making excuses for quitting.

Leonard does still play by the whole 'I didn't fight my fight' argument, though - as if how he fought in New Orleans was a true reflection of how he usually fought, which just isn't true.

Hairy Arse wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote: I'd have loved to see Ray reciprocate the rematch, but he never did that.

Why would he?

A huge payday, the cut would have been about 99/1 and to settle things once and for all. You could tell in the documentary he wishes he would have handled things differently for himself. It's not like Hearns and Hagler where I think he truly owed it to them, after all Duran did quit. I'd have liked to see a third fight and I don't buy that the public wouldn't have bought it.

If Duran really wanted another fight with Leonard so badly, he would have remained a welterweight. (Same for Hearns) Leonard would had to had defended his title against him eventually if he was the #1 contender. Duran knew that. He chose to move out of the welterweight class.

Let's be honest with ourselves. In this whole "No Mas" brouhaha only one of the combatants made a cockamamie excuse.

One of the many reasons why I (and many others) like Leonard better. Many people don't like crybaby excuses or quitters. Duran even complained about the decision in the 3rd fight.
Leonard > Duran career wise.

Duran certainly had the longer career. Ring historians usually have them pretty close. It doesn't matter to me who is ranked higher. I just know they fought three times and Leonard won two of them.


And Duran has to live with the "No Mas" decision.

Ambling Alp II wrote:If Duran really wanted another fight with Leonard so badly, he would have remained a welterweight. (Same for Hearns) Leonard would had to had defended his title against him eventually if he was the #1 contender. Duran knew that. He chose to move out of the welterweight class.

Duran chose not to fight for a couple years in shame. He definitely wanted a rematch and he couldn't get one. Everything isn't a slight at your Golden Boy as you kiss his posters and point fingers at everyone else for bias. I just wish they would have fought three in a row.

Ambling Alp II wrote:One of the many reasons why I (and many others) like Leonard better. Many people don't like crybaby excuses or quitters. Duran even complained about the decision in the 3rd fight.
Leonard > Duran career wise.

ThatOne wrote:Let's be honest with ourselves. In this whole "No Mas" brouhaha only one of the combatants made a cockamamie excuse.

Fighters make excuses all the time. Leonard fans constantly say "fought the wrong fight" and bitch about excuses of Duran not being in optimum condition.

ThatOne wrote:Duran certainly had the longer career. Ring historians usually have them pretty close. It doesn't matter to me who is ranked higher. I just know they fought three times and Leonard won two of them.


And Duran has to live with the "No Mas" decision.

They are definitely close, it's rare you'll see Leonard rated over Duran on a 'historians' list. I have them pretty close, Leonard's top 4 wins are as good as any fighter in history but Duran's volume and whipping his ass when they were both at, or very close, to their best gives him the edge for me.

That's the main reason I'd have loved to see fight three. When Ray endured that ass whipping in Montreal and closed strong that was the final piece to his puzzle.