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Ali was so bored during the Lubbers fight that he allowed ITV's Reg Gutteridge to interview him between rounds.

Il Duce wrote:

bennie wrote:Ali was so bored during the Lubbers fight that he allowed ITV's Reg Gutteridge to interview him between rounds.

I believe Rudi Lubbers was 'bored' as well, and his handlers were laughing at Ali, calling him
'an old man who couldn't punch anymore'.

"They were saying to Muhammad, 'You no better than Booogner'

I was going to respond to your prevarications and nonsense but then I was reminded of wouter's admonition, ergo:

"There's no need to stoop down to the other guy's (Il Bugiardo) level. As you're probably aware of, the quotes attributed here to Lubbers are entirely fictional. In reality he had nothing but praise for Ali after both his fight with him and Ali's win over Foreman. "

wouter
boxrec editor

wouter is correct. Why should I insult a brave man like Mr. Lubbers when the person doing the prevaricating never threw a punch in anger or for profit unless the recipient was a girl, a child, or physically challenged.

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

'I had to sit and wait around for '10-Months' to fight Ali. He had that 'broken jaw', and smashed
in face from Kenny Norton. And we were told his ribs were like 'Corn Flakes', all brittle.'

"If I had been active prior to the bout with Muhammad Ali, imagine what I could have done."

Rudi Lubbers, Dutch Heavyweight Champion

"There's no need to stoop down to the other guy's (Il Bugiardo) level. As you're probably aware of, the quotes attributed here to Lubbers are entirely fictional. In reality he had nothing but praise for Ali after both his fight with him and Ali's win over Foreman. "

wouter
boxrec editor

wouter is correct. Why should I insult a brave man like Mr. Lubbers when the person doing the prevaricating never threw a punch in anger or for profit unless the recipient was a girl, a child, or physically challenged, or a toy poodle.

bollox wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tb8jkjlP89M

fixed that for you

Here's a song recorded by Cassius Clay in 1964...I Am The Greatest. Geez Cassius must have been before his time...the song sounds like a forerunner to rap

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9Rj58ZTUNc

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers, after watching George Foreman lose to himself.

"I would have beaten George Foreman the same way, just let him punch himself out.
Like taking candy away from a baby."

"I was not all that impressed with Muhammad. He fought 'cagey', but not with any
aggressiveness. Muhammad should offer me a Title Bout, as I took him 12-Rounds
when no one gave me a chance to go longer than 5-Rounds."

Lubbers got knocked out in 4 of his 8 losses...and those 4 guys weren't George Foreman, and sure as hell didn't punch like him.

Il Duce wrote:I guess you never saw Rudi Lubbers fight Expedit Moutcho.

I did not...so what?

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

Doesn't look to me like Expedit Moutcho was much of a fighter.

8-18-2...4 KO wins, 6 KO losses...

Is there some reason why you felt the need to mention this guy?

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:I guess you never saw Rudi Lubbers fight Expedit Moutcho.

I did not...so what?

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

Doesn't look to me like Expedit Moutcho was much of a fighter.

8-18-2...4 KO wins, 6 KO losses...

Is there some reason why you felt the need to mention this guy?

He saw his name on a list?

Just wondering, will you be you doing a full review of anyone elses career or just sticking to Ali?

You know, something along the lines of "in 1928 this particular great fought a 53 year old apple farmer and struggled with the apple farmers sturdy forearms. The crowd was only 163, something the apple farmer found disturbing as he usually draws in excess of 60,000 in his native Ukraine. The apple farmer was of course also outweighted by 34 pounds, a strange anomaly as the fight was at Flyweight."

Il Duce wrote:I think you're a missing the overall on Rudi Lubbers.

Are you aware that he was out-weighed in every bout he ever fought.

That may well be, but I mean if you're fighting a guy who outweighs you who has lost over 50% of his fights, it's safe to say that size is just about all he has going for him.

Lubbers was 20-0 at the time, undefeated whereas this Moutcho guy was already nearing the tail end of his career and already had nearly twice as many losses as he had wins.

If you were trying to say that by beating this guy Moutcho it would've somehow prepared him to deal with George Foreman I have to say your assessment is a pretty epic fail.




It should also be noted that 6 of the 18 losses on Moutcho record were KO losses. Lubbers was not one of the 6 men who stopped him.

Piero Del Pappa

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_ ... &cat=boxer

45-11-4 with 17 KO wins. He is certainly a big step up from this Moutcho individual you mentioned before. Still though I don't get what you're driving at by mentioning this guy either.

Immediately before losing a 10 round decision to Lubbers, he was stopped in 1 round by LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT Champion Vicente Rondon.

For what it's worth though...Del Pappa did beat Moutcho...while he still had a winning record of 7-5 D




You're not really gonna be able to mount a convincing argument that any of these guys were some major victory when I or anybody else can look them up and find out that they in fact weren't.

I'm not saying he was just some complete chump or nothing like that, hell I never saw the man fight perhaps he was skilled I don't know. But I don't understand what you're driving at by mentioning these fights?

Lubbers beat Moutcho and Del Pappa so he could beat George Foreman?

I mean...is that what you're trying to say? If it's not...then what ARE you trying to say?

Il Duce wrote:It was very difficult to get Heavyweights to come the Netherlands.

Floyd Patterson was supposed to go in 1972, but got 'cold feet'.

As did Ron Stander and Terry Daniels, after they fought Joe Frazier.

Ok.

So just to be clear about it do you think Lubbers could have defeated George Foreman?

Il Duce wrote:If,

George Foreman fought the 'same stupid' fight in Zaire in October 1974.

Sure, Rudi would have just rolled-and-waited.

He proved that against Joe Bugner and Muhammad Ali.

27-Rounds against 'two' of the 'three' biggest Heavyweights in Boxing, and
neither could hurt the Dutchman.

Wow man, wow.

Rudi Lubbers on his best night against the Foreman from Zaire, would be stopped inside 3 rounds. EVERY....SINGLE...TIME

He's nowhere near that level. Never was

Il Duce wrote:Whoa Nellie,

Didn't you same the same exact thing when Rudi Lubbers fought Muhammad Ali,

That Rudi would be 'lucky' to last 3 Rounds.

No, for one thing I wasn't even alive when Lubbers fought Muhammad Ali, and the first time I ever heard of Lubbers was upon knowing he went the distance with Ali. Ali is a great fighter, but he isn't a monstrous puncher like Foreman is. Going the distance with Ali isn't the same as going the distance with Foreman.

Obviously Ali was better than Foreman, he proved that head to head, but I don't think Lubbers had the chin to survive the early onslaught from Foreman...I highly doubt he had the defensive ability as well.

Il Duce wrote:Question

How do you 'equate', that Rudi Lubbers goes 12-Rounds with Muhammad Ali, yet Muhammad Ali stops
George Foreman.

Now be honest,,,,,,,,,,,That's OK, you can say it.

Muhammad Ali is not recognized as the knockout puncher that Foreman is. He was a very good fighter who could hurt guys and did hurt guys on a regular basis, but he was never considered a monstrous puncher that would "destroy" guys...in most cases anyhow.

Ali's stopping Foreman had just as much to do with mental and physical exhaustion as it had to do with the power of his punches. Ali exhausted Foreman by being able to take everything he could dish out and continue to counter back with snapping, jarring shots of his own that eventually broke down Foreman's resistance.

Rudi Lubbers achievement of having gone the distance with Muhammad Ali is certainly nothing to scoff at and dismiss. I'm sure it was a legitimately game and brave effort from Lubbers and I'm sure he fought to the best of his ability that night.

But a fighter's career is not based on his performance against one man.

Foreman could not beat Ali this is true, Lubbers couldn't beat Ali either.

But Foreman and Lubbers records aside from Muhammad Ali speak for themselves. I mean Joe Frazier went the distance with Ali twice beating him once...it sure didn't help him against Foreman.

Ken Norton went the distance with Ali 3 times, beating him once and arguably deserving at least 1 more of the decisions in their other 2 fights. Didn't help him against Foreman.

George Chuvalo went the distance with Ali....guess what happened when he fought Foreman?

The scoring system for Ali vs Lubbers was I assume scored under the 5 point must system. and the scores were 60-40, 60-45, and 59-52.

So basically that means 1 of 3 judges felt Lubbers won 1 round, and the other 2 felt he won none.

At the time of the KO in Ali vs Foreman. The judges had it 4-2-1, 3-0-4, and 4-1-2 in Ali's favor.

So officially Foreman had won 2 more rounds against Ali than Lubbers did despite having been KO'ed.

Foreman was 76-5 with 68 KO's...a devastating KO puncher who very few men ever survived the distance against. Lubbers was 28-8 with 13 KO's nowhere near the puncher that Foreman was, and his best wins pale in comparison to Foreman's best wins.



I don't know how I could explain it to you any more thoroughly. If you genuinely believe Lubbers could defeat the George Foreman of Zaire then you are either hopelessly ignorant, or just f*cking with me.

At any rate. I've thoroughly explained my case.

If you want to come up with as many reasons as I did here of why Lubbers defeats Foreman I'd read it. Though you might want to wash your hands after pulling all of the reasons you do out of your ass.

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Question

How do you 'equate', that Rudi Lubbers goes 12-Rounds with Muhammad Ali, yet Muhammad Ali stops
George Foreman.

Now be honest,,,,,,,,,,,That's OK, you can say it.

Muhammad Ali is not recognized as the knockout puncher that Foreman is. He was a very good fighter who could hurt guys and did hurt guys on a regular basis, but he was never considered a monstrous puncher that would "destroy" guys...in most cases anyhow.

Ali's stopping Foreman had just as much to do with mental and physical exhaustion as it had to do with the power of his punches. Ali exhausted Foreman by being able to take everything he could dish out and continue to counter back with snapping, jarring shots of his own that eventually broke down Foreman's resistance.

Rudi Lubbers achievement of having gone the distance with Muhammad Ali is certainly nothing to scoff at and dismiss. I'm sure it was a legitimately game and brave effort from Lubbers and I'm sure he fought to the best of his ability that night.

But a fighter's career is not based on his performance against one man.

Foreman could not beat Ali this is true, Lubbers couldn't beat Ali either.

But Foreman and Lubbers records aside from Muhammad Ali speak for themselves. I mean Joe Frazier went the distance with Ali twice beating him once...it sure didn't help him against Foreman.

Ken Norton went the distance with Ali 3 times, beating him once and arguably deserving at least 1 more of the decisions in their other 2 fights. Didn't help him against Foreman.

George Chuvalo went the distance with Ali....guess what happened when he fought Foreman?

The scoring system for Ali vs Lubbers was I assume scored under the 5 point must system. and the scores were 60-40, 60-45, and 59-52.

So basically that means 1 of 3 judges felt Lubbers won 1 round, and the other 2 felt he won none.

At the time of the KO in Ali vs Foreman. The judges had it 4-2-1, 3-0-4, and 4-1-2 in Ali's favor.

So officially Foreman had won 2 more rounds against Ali than Lubbers did despite having been KO'ed.

Foreman was 76-5 with 68 KO's...a devastating KO puncher who very few men ever survived the distance against. Lubbers was 28-8 with 13 KO's nowhere near the puncher that Foreman was, and his best wins pale in comparison to Foreman's best wins.



I don't know how I could explain it to you any more thoroughly. If you genuinely believe Lubbers could defeat the George Foreman of Zaire then you are either hopelessly ignorant, or just f*cking with me.

At any rate. I've thoroughly explained my case.

If you want to come up with as many reasons as I did here of why Lubbers defeats Foreman I'd read it. Though you might want to wash your hands after pulling all of the reasons you do out of your ass.

Il Duce is a boxing novice. He doesn't realize that styles make fights.

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

Rudi was not in the best shape physically when he fought Muhammad Ali in
October 1973.

He had been out of the Ring for '10-Months' and had been sitting around since 'June 1973'
waiting.

On the other hand, Muhammad Ali {217 lbs.} was in the 'best' physical shape of his {comeback career},
coming off of a September 1973 bout with Ken Norton.

And as for 'chins', the difference between Muhammad Ali and Rudi Lubbers..........

Rudi had 'never' been floored.

He was stopped 4 times though. Ali was only stopped once and that was when he was shot to hell going against a prime Larry Holmes. Lubbers trained 9 months for his fight with Muhammad Ali, Ali trained 10 days, but yes he did fight Ken Norton just one month prior to his fight with Lubbers.

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

Rudi was not in the best shape physically when he fought Muhammad Ali in
October 1973.

He had been out of the Ring for '10-Months' and had been sitting around since 'June 1973'
waiting.

On the other hand, Muhammad Ali {217 lbs.} was in the 'best' physical shape of his {comeback career},
coming off of a September 1973 bout with Ken Norton.

And as for 'chins', the difference between Muhammad Ali and Rudi Lubbers..........

Rudi had 'never' been floored.

Rudi was stopped four times by such all time greats as Gordon Racette, Alfredo Evangelista, Mike Schutte and Dominico Adinolfi.


I would bet my d--k pre 75 Ali could beat all four of those guys on the same night in a series of four rounders. I would bet my left testicle that he can stop at least three of them in the alotted four rounds.

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

Rudi was not in the best shape physically when he fought Muhammad Ali in
October 1973.

He had been out of the Ring for '10-Months' and had been sitting around since 'June 1973'
waiting.

On the other hand, Muhammad Ali {217 lbs.} was in the 'best' physical shape of his {comeback career},
coming off of a September 1973 bout with Ken Norton.

And as for 'chins', the difference between Muhammad Ali and Rudi Lubbers..........

Rudi had 'never' been floored.

Rudi was stopped four times by such all time greats as Gordon Racette, Alfredo Evangelista, Mike Schutte and Dominico Adinolfi.


I would bet my d--k pre 75 Ali could beat all four of those guys on the same night in a series of four rounders. I would bet my left testicle that he can stop at least three of them in the alotted four rounds.

I assume you think he'd stop Racette, Schutte and Adinolfi then. He did in fact fight Evangelista and go the 15 round distance against him.

Of course this was the 1977 Ali who was nearing the end of his run at the top.

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers 'trained' for 9-Months

So you were in Holland watching him train, from February 1973 thru October 1973.

Let me see your 'Dutch Boy Wooden Shoes'........

I read that he had trained 9 months for the fight. How accurate those reports were I'm not sure. At any rate he was well prepared to give his best effort that night, and by surviving the distance against Ali he did accomplish that.

Il Duce wrote:Here, Rudi Lubbers has Muhammad Ali 'dipping', after landing a short left hook to the ribs.

The man in that photograph does not look like Muhammad Ali for one thing.

Even if it were, he lost all 12 rounds on 2 scorecards and 11 on the other. He survived....that's all.

He wasn't a threat to win the fight.

gilgamesh wrote:

ThatOne wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

Rudi was not in the best shape physically when he fought Muhammad Ali in
October 1973.

He had been out of the Ring for '10-Months' and had been sitting around since 'June 1973'
waiting.

On the other hand, Muhammad Ali {217 lbs.} was in the 'best' physical shape of his {comeback career},
coming off of a September 1973 bout with Ken Norton.

And as for 'chins', the difference between Muhammad Ali and Rudi Lubbers..........

Rudi had 'never' been floored.

Rudi was stopped four times by such all time greats as Gordon Racette, Alfredo Evangelista, Mike Schutte and Dominico Adinolfi.


I would bet my d--k pre 75 Ali could beat all four of those guys on the same night in a series of four rounders. I would bet my left testicle that he can stop at least three of them in the alotted four rounds.

I assume you think he'd stop Racette, Schutte and Adinolfi then. He did in fact fight Evangelista and go the 15 round distance against him.

Of course this was the 1977 Ali who was nearing the end of his run at the top.

Of course I watched the Evangelista fight live. That's why i used the pre 75 or pre Manilla Ali. IMHO, he was pretty much done as a fighter after that.

If Rudi fought Foreman with a sleepy ref he might very well have got himself killed or seriously hurt.

gilgamesh wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Here, Rudi Lubbers has Muhammad Ali 'dipping', after landing a short left hook to the ribs.

The man in that photograph does not look like Muhammad Ali for one thing.

Even if it were, he lost all 12 rounds on 2 scorecards and 11 on the other. He survived....that's all.

He wasn't a threat to win the fight.

Ali wasn't even that out of shape for the Berbick fight where he weighed in at a svelte 236 1/2 pounds

Il Duce wrote:Rudi Lubbers

Fact,

Rudi could not have trained '9-months' for Muhammad Ali.

He signed the 'fight contract' in mid-June 1973. At best, that's 3+ Months.

Not too many decent Heavyweight 'sparring-partners' in The Netherlands at that time.

There are a lot of fighters today who are from places that don't offer good sparring partners. They move to a location where they can find them.

It wouldn't have mattered how much time Lubbers would've had to train for Ali or Foreman in 1973 or 1974 respectively, he wouldn't have stood a chance against either of them.

Il Duce wrote:Wrong

Rudi was only 'lightly bruised' on his face from Muhammad Ali's punches.

As per Rudi,

"Joe Bugner hit harder than Muhammad Ali. Muhammad was 'faster' by far and the much
better boxer. But, Muhammad had a tendency to 'quit' after he landed a good punch,
if you came back with your own punch."

If you can provide a citation I'll write a check for $1,000.00 to the owners of this site to help provide for upkeep.