BoxRec

knurak wrote:Fvck the military. Good for Ali, him telling the U.S. military to go fvck themselves is one of my favorite things about him.

Look at the Pentagon Papers. The reasons for the Vietnam War:

70% - to avoid a humiliating U.S. defeat
20% - to keep territory from Chinese hands
10% - to permit the people to enjoy a better, freer way of life for the Vietnamese
ALSO - to emerge from the crisis without unacceptable taint from methods used

So people should die to avoid a humiliating defeat? I'm still mad I had family who died in that war. What a waste.

In business they call that "sunken cost" . If the U.S. left Viet Nam after 1,000 soldiers were killed then those soldiers died in vain. Than 1,000 became 10,000, then 20,000... then 55,000...

I don't care what anyone says, or who backs Ali, what he did was a disservice to the country that MADE HIM a gold medalist, that MADE HIM a world champion, and that MADE HIM the most popular and well known athlete in history. Religion was an easy scape goat. Was he scared? No. He never would of saw action, and would of been kept from public sight, etc. He just was a selfish, uppity bastard who didn't want to do what he was told.

And it isn't just Muhammad Ali, either. Jess Willard was nothing but a draft dodging cowardly son of a bitch too. Dempsey had an excuse--- but he too could have went into service if he absolutely wanted to. He made up for it, though, doing exhibitions for the war effort and even enlisting in his 40's for the coast guard and all that. Oh wells... people will believe whatever they want to believe rather than admit the truth.

Il Duce wrote:You Bunch of Dicks

Going to entertain Miltary Personel on U.S. Miiltary Bases has nothing to do with
the Vietnam Conflict.

Many of these bases were tranfser stations for the Merchant Marines, and Airfields
that were used to deliver goods to the 'needy' in the Southeast Pacific.

What the hell does a U.S. Army Hospital in Honolulu have anything to do with Vietnam
in December 1964.

The Honolulu Military Base's had Hospitals on them that took care of World War II and Korean War veterans.

Cassius Clay was no 'F****N Hero'.

The USO Tour was about the 'Troops' - not about the Vietnam Conflict nor Cassius Clay's 'celebrity'.

I need context and citations.

I can't believe Ali would refuse to visit a hospital:

Muhammad Ali himself recalls an encounter with Jimmy, a young boy suffering from leukemia, who wanted to meet him before his epic fight with George Foreman in 1974. Before the boy left, Ali had a photograph taken of himself and Jimmy which he enlarged later and sent to the kid, with the inscription: “You’re going to beat cancer. I’m going to beat George. Love, Your friend, Muhammad Ali.”[10] Two weeks later Ali learned that Jimmy was in a hospital and not expected to live. Within three hours Ali was at the boy’s bedside.

When I walked in he was lying in his bed and I saw that his skin was as white as his sheets were.

Jimmy looked up with bright eyes and called out, “Muhammad, I knew you would come!”

I walked over to his bedside and said, “Jimmy, remember what I told you? I’m going to beat George Foreman and you’re going to beat cancer.”

Jimmy looked up at me and whispered, “No, Muhammad. I’m going to meet God, and I’m going to tell him that you are my friend.”

The room was silent and we were in tears. I hugged Jimmy good-bye and later that night when we returned to my training camp, none of us spoke much.[11]

A week later the boy died, and the father invited Ali to the funeral. Unable to attend, he sent Gene, his assistant. “When Gene returned from the funeral, he told [Ali] that there had been an open casket and that the autographed picture was beside Jimmy’s head.”[12]


http://www.americansc.org.uk/Online/Ali.htm

HomicideHenry wrote:I don't care what anyone says, or who backs Ali, what he did was a disservice to the country that MADE HIM a gold medalist, that MADE HIM a world champion, and that MADE HIM the most popular and well known athlete in history. Religion was an easy scape goat. Was he scared? No. He never would of saw action, and would of been kept from public sight, etc. He just was a selfish, uppity bastard who didn't want to do what he was told.

And it isn't just Muhammad Ali, either. Jess Willard was nothing but a draft dodging cowardly son of a bitch too. Dempsey had an excuse--- but he too could have went into service if he absolutely wanted to. He made up for it, though, doing exhibitions for the war effort and even enlisting in his 40's for the coast guard and all that. Oh wells... people will believe whatever they want to believe rather than admit the truth.

Oh really? So Ali didn't accomplish that stuff himself? The U.S. made him a gold medalist and a champ? He doesn't deserve any credit? He would've been champ if he was born in Britain or any other first-world country. The person accomplishes these feats, not the country they were born into.

Why should Ali put his career on hold to try and help the U.S. save face? Why should he put his life in danger for a country that treated him as a second-class citizen for the first 16-18 years of his life? Drinking from the colored drinking fountains, using the colored bathrooms, etc. I know they weren't asking him to go into combat but his life is obviously in more danger on a military base in Vietnam than it is in the States.

You don't owe your life to your country just because you were born there. If Jess Willard disagreed with the war, why should he participate? Just because the U.S. told him to? I respect individuals who think for themselves and don't simply do as they're told. It frequently makes their lives difficult, but they are also often the ones who accomplish great feats. If nobody ever questioned anything or spoke against the status quo, slavery would likely still be rampant today, amongst other atrocities.

I simply disagree with you. I'm not claiming you're denying the truth. We just have different opinions about the truth.

Il Duce wrote:You Bunch of Dicks

Going to entertain Miltary Personel on U.S. Miiltary Bases has nothing to do with
the Vietnam Conflict.

Many of these bases were tranfser stations for the Merchant Marines, and Airfields
that were used to deliver goods to the 'needy' in the Southeast Pacific.

What the hell does a U.S. Army Hospital in Honolulu have anything to do with Vietnam
in December 1964.

The Honolulu Military Base's had Hospitals on them that took care of World War II and Korean War veterans.

Cassius Clay was no 'F****N Hero'.

The USO Tour was about the 'Troops' - not about the Vietnam Conflict nor Cassius Clay's 'celebrity'.

In my opinion Ali is more of a hero than any military member in the last fifty years.

Why should Ali put his career on hold, to entertain a military fighting a battle he disagrees with?

The Honolulu base may have had nothing to do with Vietnam. But Ali made a decision not to support the military. As I said, he grew up in a country that treated him as a second-class citizen. I personally don't blame him at all for not jumping to the aid of the U.S. Whatever his political beliefs were, and whatever reasons he had for choosing not to go, I commend him for making the decision that was right to him, even if it was going to make his life more difficult.

ThatOne wrote:

knurak wrote:Fvck the military. Good for Ali, him telling the U.S. military to go fvck themselves is one of my favorite things about him.

Look at the Pentagon Papers. The reasons for the Vietnam War:

70% - to avoid a humiliating U.S. defeat
20% - to keep territory from Chinese hands
10% - to permit the people to enjoy a better, freer way of life for the Vietnamese
ALSO - to emerge from the crisis without unacceptable taint from methods used

So people should die to avoid a humiliating defeat? I'm still mad I had family who died in that war. What a waste.

In business they call that "sunken cost" . If the U.S. left Viet Nam after 1,000 soldiers were killed then those soldiers died in vain. Than 1,000 became 10,000, then 20,000... then 55,000...

Soldiers dying was the idea. The war is not meant to be won, it's meant to be constant.

Il Duce wrote:Mr. That One

You take 'one' little Good Deed, and try to twist into some miraculous journey..........

December 1964

Stay with the 'program'.

When it was time to step up to the plate...........Cassius turned 'yellow'.

I already addressed that... And to Jimmy it meant everything...

If he genuinely opposed the war going the exhibition route was absolutely the most cowardly route he could have taken. His presence would have a legitimized a war he found unjust and encourage others to fight in it and possibly die in it while he was in the States giving boxing exhibitions.

Instead he risked his career, his freedom , and livelihood to oppose it.
-That One

Now if you can give me a source that I can verify for myself that Ali refused to visit injured GIs in a hospital I'll take a look at it because I'm a honest fella. Context (timing) is important because once he announced he was a member of the NOI he became poison to the main stream. I don't think the USO would touch him at that point.

HomicideHenry wrote:I don't care what anyone says, or who backs Ali, what he did was a disservice to the country that MADE HIM a gold medalist, that MADE HIM a world champion, and that MADE HIM the most popular and well known athlete in history. Religion was an easy scape goat. Was he scared? No. He never would of saw action, and would of been kept from public sight, etc. He just was a selfish, uppity bastard who didn't want to do what he was told.

And it isn't just Muhammad Ali, either. Jess Willard was nothing but a draft dodging cowardly son of a bitch too. Dempsey had an excuse--- but he too could have went into service if he absolutely wanted to. He made up for it, though, doing exhibitions for the war effort and even enlisting in his 40's for the coast guard and all that. Oh wells... people will believe whatever they want to believe rather than admit the truth.

It's kind of impressive that this is probably the dumbest thing you have ever posted.

I have a huge problem comparing WW ll to Viet Nam. In one war we were opposing a trio of genocidal maniacs. In the other war we found ourselves in the middle of a civil war fought largely by peasants.

ThatOne wrote:I have a huge problem comparing WW ll to Viet Nam. In one war we were opposing a trio of genocidal maniacs. In the other war we found ourselves in the middle of a civil war fought largely by peasants.

The differences are pretty obvious.

Good job Cassius of rejecting that bs offer

Il Duce wrote:

scallum wrote:Good job Cassius of rejecting that bs offer

Maybe Cassius was afraid,,,,,,,,of Wake Island...........

There was nothing there, but Air Plane Hangers, Warehouses, a large Shipyard Loading Dock
and a small Air Force Base.

Or, maybe he was afraid of 'hot' attractive women.........Jill St. John and Ann Sydney.

Was Cassius possibly,,,,,,,,,'a fancy boy'...

He was deathly afraid of flying. The whole " Yeah, I know there are a lot more car accidents than plane accidents but cars can't fall out of the sky" But obviously he overcame it.

p4p1 wrote:

ThatOne wrote:I have a huge problem comparing WW ll to Viet Nam. In one war we were opposing a trio of genocidal maniacs. In the other war we found ourselves in the middle of a civil war fought largely by peasants.

The differences are pretty obvious.

My father served in three tours of duty in Vietnam, proudly I might add. I like how he put it to me once, that these people were crying out for help and nobody was listening to them. We came and helped them, then when people over here in the States who were too chicken shit to help and boo hooed and bawled and hem hawed and turned it into politics--- we told those same people we'd come back if they needed us, and left them materials and weapons that were insufficient, etc. and left them to their own devices. It is stupid to begin something and not finish it.

And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border. They more than held their own, those "peasants".

HomicideHenry wrote:And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border. They more than held their own, those "peasants".

It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam using ground troops.

You sure you aren't getting things mixed up again?

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border. They more than held their own, those "peasants".

It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam using ground troops.

You sure you aren't getting things mixed up again?

The North Koreans drove the border further into South Vietnam, and we drove it back to where it was originally. Dad said the greatest obstacle in Vietnam, though, was taking an area and securing it and holding it--- because the higher ups in Washington would make them leave the area they conquered, and thus it would fall back into the hands of the North Vietnamese. Was a game of tag you're it, it seemed. Would have to ask dad in greater detail about it all, but policy or no policy, some things just were.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border. They more than held their own, those "peasants".

It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam using ground troops.

You sure you aren't getting things mixed up again?

The North Koreans drove the border further into South Vietnam, and we drove it back to where it was originally. Dad said the greatest obstacle in Vietnam, though, was taking an area and securing it and holding it--- because the higher ups in Washington would make them leave the area they conquered, and thus it would fall back into the hands of the North Vietnamese. Was a game of tag you're it, it seemed. Would have to ask dad in greater detail about it all, but policy or no policy, some things just were.

Korea was a different war.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border. They more than held their own, those "peasants".

It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam using ground troops.

You sure you aren't getting things mixed up again?

The North Vietnamese drove the border further into South Vietnam, and we drove it back to where it was originally. Dad said the greatest obstacle in Vietnam, though, was taking an area and securing it and holding it--- because the higher ups in Washington would make them leave the area they conquered, and thus it would fall back into the hands of the North Vietnamese. Was a game of tag you're it, it seemed. Would have to ask dad in greater detail about it all, but policy or no policy, some things just were.

Meant North Vietnamese lol

HomicideHenry wrote:

HomicideHenry wrote:

Giancarlo wrote: It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam using ground troops.

You sure you aren't getting things mixed up again?

The North Vietnamese drove the border further into South Vietnam, and we drove it back to where it was originally. Dad said the greatest obstacle in Vietnam, though, was taking an area and securing it and holding it--- because the higher ups in Washington would make them leave the area they conquered, and thus it would fall back into the hands of the North Vietnamese. Was a game of tag you're it, it seemed. Would have to ask dad in greater detail about it all, but policy or no policy, some things just were.

Meant North Vietnamese lol

OK, that makes a bit more sense.

But you originally said:
And give those "peasants" their due, the greatest military force in the world hardly put a dent in the border.
The US didn't attempt to 'put a dent in the border' between North and South Vietnam. It was never US policy to invade North Vietnam so whether or not they could have pushed the North Vietnamese army back to Hanoi is a moot point.

When they did attempt to put a dent in a border eg the border between South Vietnam and Cambodia they were able to accomplish it with relative ease.

The North Vietnamese did not normally infiltrate large amounts of troops and material accross the DMZ directly; what do you think they built and constantly enlarged the Ho Chi Minh trail for, Rufus?

Anyway, if your point is that the massive USA war machine could not effectively subdue the North Vietnamese and their Viet Cong allies within South Vietnam, I'm in agreement.