Who won(without bias) the first Ali Vs Frazier I fight?

[SaadOffTheDeck]

I just skim by his posts and ignore his threads. Seeing ThatOne so infatuated with him that he posts more about IlDuce than anything else is quite alarming. He's Duce's sucker in the worst way.

[ThatOne]

Steven Alderson who was in the 2nd Row.

"I had a clear view into Muhammad Ali's corner from where I was sitting in the 2nd-Row.
Muhammad had tears in his eye's at the end of the 5th-Round, as Joe Frazier had ripped
his ribs apart with a body punch. I was shocked, as I never thought that Muhammad could
be hit, let alone hurt."

You like apples?

Another prevarication from Il Bugiardo.


Thanks for ruining another thread. I would quicker believe you are a heterosexual than a boxer could make Muhammad Ali cry.

How do you like them apples?

There's nothing wrong with Il Duce's post. This is a post about Ali-Frazier I.

prevarication-pre·var·i·cate (pr-vr-kt)
intr.v. pre·var·i·cat·ed, pre·var·i·cat·ing, pre·var·i·cates
To stray from or evade the truth; equivocate. See Synonyms at lie


There is nothing wrong with the quote unless it's not true. I'm willing to write a check for one thousand dollars to boxrec for maintenance of the site if somebody is willing to write a similar amount if it is.

I was under the impression that this was a site to learn more about boxers and that becomes difficult if the information is deliberately misleading and outright fallacious.

[ThatOne]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770
First vice president and second president of the United States Of America.

[ThatOne]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770
First vice president and second president of the United States Of America.

Mr. That One, is again 'destroying' a good thread by posting 'quotes' that have no relevance to the subject.

It has everything to do with this subject. How are people supposed to learn about a subject if in the discussion of the subject there is a sea of lies?

It would be like going to a history board and "learning" that Ulysses Grant surrendered at Appomattox .

I do find it interesting that some people choose to criticize me for telling the truth. I keep my opinions and facts separate and I defy anybody on this board to point to where I haven't or engaged in lying.

If even one incident is pointed out I am willing to fall on my sward and exile myself from this site. The truth is the most precious commodity of all...Every tragedy, large or small, begins with a lie.

[witherspoon]

I have just read a brilliant article by William Nack, 'The Fight's Over, Joe'.
It describes vividly the strength of Frazier's feelings toward Ali.
Great quotes sum it up for me:
'He called me stupid. He said I was so ugly my mother ran and hid when she gave birth to me. I was shocked. I sat down and said to myself, I'm gonna kill him. Ok? Simple as that. I'm gonna kill him.'

And to quote Nack:
'Frazier had done nothing to earn the caricature of Uncle Tom, but Ali had lashed him to that stake as if to define their war in black and white.'

Having read all that was said, I can only conclude (great man that he was) that Ali was spectacularly stupid.
At what point did it seem like a good idea to make a man like Joe Frazier mad enough to kill him before the biggest fight ever?
And then with the benefit of his experience he went on to smack that fukking gorilla toy for the whole world to see.
'The closest thing to dying', said Muhammad after the thriller in Manilla. No sh!t, jackass.

[ThatOne]

I have just read a brilliant article by William Nack, 'The Fight's Over, Joe'.
It describes vividly the strength of Frazier's feelings toward Ali.
Great quotes sum it up for me:
'He called me stupid. He said I was so ugly my mother ran and hid when she gave birth to me. I was shocked. I sat down and said to myself, I'm gonna kill him. Ok? Simple as that. I'm gonna kill him.'

And to quote Nack:
'Frazier had done nothing to earn the caricature of Uncle Tom, but Ali had lashed him to that stake as if to define their war in black and white.'

Having read all that was said, I can only conclude (great man that he was) that Ali was spectacularly stupid.
At what point did it seem like a good idea to make a man like Joe Frazier mad enough to kill him before the biggest fight ever?
And then with the benefit of his experience he went on to smack that fukking gorilla toy for the whole world to see.
'The closest thing to dying', said Muhammad after the thriller in Manilla. No sh!t, jackass.

What Ali did was monumentally wrong, monumentally stupid, and monumentally hurtful but he has apologized for it ad infinitum and ad nauseum:



“I didn’t ask no favors of him, and he didn’t ask none of me. He shook me in Manila; he won. But I sent him home worse than he came. Look at him now. He’s damaged goods. I know it; you know it. Everyone knows it; they just don’t want to say. He was always making fun of me. I’m the dummy; I’m the one getting hit in the head. Tell me now; him or me, which one talks worse now? He can’t talk no more, and he still tries to make noise. He still wants you to think he’s the greatest, and he ain’t. I don’t care how the world looks at him. I see him different, and I know him better than anyone. Manila really don’t matter no more. He’s finished, and I’m still here.”

-Joe Frazier

Twenty-one months later, when I finished writing Muhammad Ali: His Life and Times, I journeyed to Ali’s home in Berrian Springs, Michigan. Lonnie Ali (Muhammad’s wife), Howard Bingham (Ali’s longtime friend and personal photographer), and I spent a week reading every word of the manuscript aloud. By agreement, there would be no censorship. Our purpose in reading was to ensure the factually accuracy of the book.

In due course, Lonnie read Frazier’s quote aloud.

There was a silent moment.

"Did you hear that, Muhammad?" Lonnie asked.

Ali nodded.

"How do you feel, knowing that hundreds of thousands of people will read that?”

"It's what he said," Muhammad answered.

Ali’s thoughts ended that chapter of the book.

“I’m sorry Joe Frazier is mad at me. I’m sorry I hurt him. Joe Frazier is a good man. I couldn’t have done what I did without him, and he couldn’t have done what he did without me. And if God ever calls me to a holy war, I want Joe Frazier fighting beside me.”


http://www.thesweetscience.com/news/art ... oe-frazier


Thank you mentioning the SI article. If anybody is interested in reading it:



http://si.com/vault/article/magazine/MA ... /index.htm

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence."

-John Adams, 'Argument in Defense of the Soldiers in the Boston Massacre Trials,' December 1770
First vice president and second president of the United States Of America.

Well, now we've reached the point where you have pretty much ruined yet another thread. At this point, you're much worse than IlDuce. Time to skim you too.

[BoxBuzz]

Il Duce's lack of facts, and fancy for fiction can be very provocative.

ThatOne.....please know.....very very few people are actually buying the nonsense.

Separating the chaff from the wheat is a skill that many here have.


He's only fooling himself. And for those he is fooling....well no one can be responsible for them.

My suggestion? Enjoy the fiction......as long as facts are readily available to all, he poses no threat to anyone.

[ThatOne]

Il Duce's lack of facts, and fancy for fiction can be very provocative.

ThatOne.....please know.....very very few people are actually buying the nonsense.

Separating the chaff from the wheat is a skill that many here have.


He's only fooling himself. And for those he is fooling....well no one can be responsible for them.

My suggestion? Enjoy the fiction......as long as facts are readily available to all, he poses no threat to anyone.

This is the only site where one gets pilloried for speaking the truth. That's ok. I would rather die than be party to a lie.

I come here to discuss boxing and am bombarded with a torrent of lies about one boxer and only one boxer ! I would rather be dropped out of airplane than not to respond.

"All it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing."

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Now you're a victim for destroying thread after thread? This dude has driven you completely mad.

[BoxBuzz]

When someone else is telling stories....you are no party to their fantasies....unless you somehow introduce yourself as a cast member.

Honestly his crap falls away of it's own weight.

[gilgamesh]

When someone else is telling stories....you are no party to their fantasies....unless you somehow introduce yourself as a cast member.

Honestly his crap falls away of it's own weight.

Generally the people that frequent the Boxers of the Past section know a thing or two about Boxing anyhow, and they're not going to be swayed by bullsh*t.

[ThatOne]

When someone else is telling stories....you are no party to their fantasies....unless you somehow introduce yourself as a cast member.

Honestly his crap falls away of it's own weight.

Generally the people that frequent the Boxers of the Past section know a thing or two about Boxing anyhow, and they're not going to be swayed by bullsh*t.

It's still annoying as f--k... ..


Box Buzz should at least ask posters who post quotations to provide a source that can be independently verified and also for the record what started this dust up is that a lie was accepted as truth. The record is the record.

[HomicideHenry]

I agree on the KD in the 11th, of course I also feel Ali was legitimately down against Bonavena.

I'm in the minority with you that believes Bonavena dropped Ali.

On a different note, I interviewed Marvis Frazier a few months ago and asked him whether or not his father ever let go of the anger and animosity between him and Ali, and Marvis said that yes, he was there to witness Ali being there while Joe was dying and they made up. Over forty years of fueding, arguing and hate. That is quite a long time to hold on to grudges. I do think Joe had every reason to be upset, as Ali instigated alot of trouble for no real reason. It wouldnt of surprised me, had the two men met and never apologised before Joe died, and Ali instigated something that both of them would of started battling it out on the streets of Philly right there and then. Some things we as fans will never fully understand what it is to be a fighter, and to be someone's kryptonite. For Ali, it was Frazier. For Frazier, it was Ali. The two were made for one another.

[ThatOne]

I agree on the KD in the 11th, of course I also feel Ali was legitimately down against Bonavena.

I'm in the minority with you that believes Bonavena dropped Ali.

On a different note, I interviewed Marvis Frazier a few months ago and asked him whether or not his father ever let go of the anger and animosity between him and Ali, and Marvis said that yes, he was there to witness Ali being there while Joe was dying and they made up. Over forty years of fueding, arguing and hate. That is quite a long time to hold on to grudges. I do think Joe had every reason to be upset, as Ali instigated alot of trouble for no real reason. It wouldnt of surprised me, had the two men met and never apologised before Joe died, and Ali instigated something that both of them would of started battling it out on the streets of Philly right there and then. Some things we as fans will never fully understand what it is to be a fighter, and to be someone's kryptonite. For Ali, it was Frazier. For Frazier, it was Ali. The two were made for one another.

Wow...Thanks for being a witness to that. That is great to hear.

[ThatOne]

Round 5

'Smokin Joe Frazier embarrasses Muhammad Ali'

{0:05} > Muhammad lands a 'double' left-right, and then moves to the right side of the Ring.

{0:08} > Muhammad lands a light 'double' left jab, and slides to the back Ropes.

{0:10} > Joe lands a 'hard' left hook, and follow up sharp left.

{0:14} > Muhammad lands a light 'double' left, and then grabs and holds Joe behind the head.

{0:17} > Muhammad is back-pedalling for dear life.

{0:20} > Joe is stalking Muhammad like a Black Rhino on a rampage.

{0:21} > Joe lands a 'hard' left hook to Muhammad's face.

{0:24} > Joe lands a 'hard' 4-Punch combination to the body, and drives Muhammad to the back left Ropes.

{0:25} > Muhammad is trying to grab and hold.

{0:27} > Joe lands a 'fast' double left-left to the face.

{0:30} > Muhammad is dancing away so fast, it looks like he's running away.

{0:38} > Muhammad lands a light 'left-left-right' and then grabs and holds.

{0:41} > Muhammad is dancing away in high-gear.

{0:50} > Joe lands a sharp 'double' left.

{0:52} > Muhammad counters with a left-right, then dances away.

{0:56} > Joe moves in, and Muhammad grabs and holds, and is unwilling to trade with Joe.

{1:02} > Muhammad lands 'three' light left jabs, and again grabs and holds.

{1:05} > Muhammad is 'illegally' holding behind Joe's head.

{1:11} > Muhammad lands a left-right.

{1:16} > Muhammad lands his 'best' left-right of the Round.

{1:17} > Joe Frazier 'drops-his-hands' and laughs at Muhammad Ali.

{1:19} > Muhammad lands another 'light' left-right.

{1:21} > Joe times Muhammad, and counters with a 'hard' wide left hook to Muhammad's chin that drives him backwards.

{1:22} > Joe 'zooms' in with another wide-sweeping left hook that grazes Muhammad's chin.

{1:23} > Muhammad backs up and has a look of 'fear'.


For me, that was the 'signature' moment of the bout. The fear in Muhammad's eyes.

"If you were half the man in real life Muhammad Ali was in the ring you might actually like yourself."

-ringsider

[BoxBuzz]

Well much of your editorial is a fascinating load of crap Ill Douche' lol.

And in your brain...it lives (I'm quite it's in living color!)

The following is far more accurate....

Even when Ali was flat on his back, HE thought he was winning, and got up with every intention of putting a further whuppin' on Joe, and had a few pretty damn good moments in the wake of his own knockdown.

He was not in fear. Not one single iota He was perhaps in denial.

Denial that he was in a competitive fight that many thought he was losing.

But Ali? Nope, not a dent in his psyche, or ego. He actually thought he was winning

and on one objective measure you could say he did pretty well in his losing effort.

Based on the lengthy hospital stay that Joe enjoyed in the post fight week.

Yeah...yeah...make a bunch of excuses and re-write history on that one....you'll have fun doing it (as others have had)

Joe had a very very bad week after the fight......that WINNING effort, and I say winning if good

faith....seemed to have taken perhaps more of a toll on the winner than the loser. (Not the first or last time for such a scenario, just a fact).

Joe won the fight, Ali extracted a big price for that win.

And you sir...are a...... well....

at the very least..... one big dummy head!

[ThatOne]

Well much of your editorial is a fascinating load of crap Ill Douche' lol.

And in your brain...it lives (I'm quite it's in living color!)

The following is far more accurate....

Even when Ali was flat on his back, HE thought he was winning, and got up with every intention of putting a further whuppin' on Joe, and had a few pretty damn good moments in the wake of his own knockdown.

He was not in fear. Not one single iota He was perhaps in denial.

Denial that he was in a competitive fight that many thought he was losing.

But Ali? Nope, not a dent in his psyche, or ego. He actually thought he was winning

and on one objective measure you could say he did pretty well in his losing effort.

Based on the lengthy hospital stay that Joe enjoyed in the post fight week.

Yeah...yeah...make a bunch of excuses and re-write history on that one....you'll have fun doing it (as others have had)

Joe had a very very bad week after the fight......that WINNING effort, and I say winning if good

faith....seemed to have taken perhaps more of a toll on the winner than the loser. (Not the first or last time for such a scenario, just a fact).

Joe won the fight, Ali extracted a big price for that win.

And you sir...are a...... well....

at the very least..... one big dummy head!

.

[BoxBuzz]

Why do you hate Frazier? I thought your beef was with Ali.

Frazier was fraught with skill.

The Sequel DummyHead II

[SaadOffTheDeck]

When someone else is telling stories....you are no party to their fantasies....unless you somehow introduce yourself as a cast member.

Honestly his crap falls away of it's own weight.

Generally the people that frequent the Boxers of the Past section know a thing or two about Boxing anyhow, and they're not going to be swayed by bullsh*t.

It's still annoying as f--k... ..


Box Buzz should at least ask posters who post quotations to provide a source that can be independently verified and also for the record what started this dust up is that a lie was accepted as truth. The record is the record.

As are you. Hey, do your thing, but you need to stop pinning the blame on him for thread desecration, because you're a thread mutilator too. It's obvious nothing can stop you in your never ending quest to bring IlDuce to internet justice, but you seriously need to stop whining about it. It makes you look much worse than him.

[fightscorecollector]

8-6-1 Frazier or 144-141 if you were using the ten point must system from today

[yancey]

Ali knew he lost the fight that night.

The knockdown cemented things.

Of course the revisionism started pretty quickly.

[yancey]

8-6-1 Frazier or 144-141 if you were using the ten point must system from today

Make it 144-140 and I can agree with this. The 11th should be a 10-8 round.

[ThatOne]

ROFL

[BoxBuzz]

Ali knew he lost the fight that night.

The knockdown cemented things.

Of course the revisionism started pretty quickly.

I do agree with this, he recognized it afterwards, but fear? Neither he nor Joe were capable of that particular reaction in the ring.

Joe did not even show fear against Foreman......

Ali showed no fear against Holmes.

They damn sure were not showing any fear in that fight......they were gladiators at war

Duce's Douchism's when it comes to his editorials are imbecilic.

Which is why he is such a good entertainer.........he's almost Zellenoffic in his ways.

At some future point, I will gather all his work into one unabridged encyclopedic edition and auction it off for charity.