BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Ezzard wrote:Possibly going the other way now…

Not sure Tim was behind against Frank but that wouldn’t prove too much. Tim was waiting for his moment and took it when it came.

As a huge Tyson fan when he first came on the scene the one fighter I was nervous about him facing was Witherspoon.

There is no doubt Lewis was behind and desperate against Bruno.

Controversial wrote:The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

Controversial wrote:The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Controversial wrote:The Bruno who fought Lewis would've beaten Witherspoon.

The Witherspoon that fought Bruno would have beaten the Lewis that beat Bruno. Frank's stamina would always be a problem against Witherspoon but he could outpoint him if Tim came in uninterested.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

keithmoonhangover wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

Hmmmm.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:The men you highlighted deteriorated to having lesser careers. But at the time Witherspoon faced them, they were in good standing. Broad, Tillis, and Ribalta were fringe contenders. Carl the Truth was still ranked pretty highly by the alpha organizations in 1991. Gonzalez was an accomplished Olympian who had beaten Lewis and Bowe in the amateurs and had established a pretty good professional record. Cole had only lost once and was coming off string of cruiserweight title defenses. Of all the aformentioned names, Spoon fought about 4 of them when he was in old age.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:The men you highlighted deteriorated to having lesser careers. But at the time Witherspoon faced them, they were in good standing. Broad, Tillis, and Ribalta were fringe contenders. Carl the Truth was still ranked pretty highly by the alpha organizations in 1991. Gonzalez was an accomplished Olympian who had beaten Lewis and Bowe in the amateurs and had established a pretty good professional record. Cole had only lost once and was coming off string of cruiserweight title defenses. Of all the aformentioned names, Spoon fought about 4 of them when he was in old age.

I know the history of all of those fighters and none of them ever looked like being a world champion.

Did I say they did?

Sometimes great wins can be measured by what the opponent does after the defeat.

Sometimes yes. But fighters can also be ruined by defeats, have their records run into the ground by facing too many good opponents in a short period of time, or even more simply just get old.. None of these things change their standing at the time. I also disagree with your statement somewhat in that beating a lesser fighter earlier does not always make the stock value rise if they do something better later on. No one thought anything of Tony Tucker's win over James Douglas, until Buster beat Tyson years later. Still doesn't change the fact that James was a nobody at the time of the Tucker fight. Greg Page was a #1 contender who Larry Holmes ducked when Witherspoon beat him in 1984. Just because Page would get beaten by David Bey, Joe Bugner and many others thereafter, doesn't change the merit in Spoon's win over him at the time.

Speaking of defeats, list the guys Witherspoon lost to and that shows how beatable he was.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

keithmoonhangover wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

Yep, no need to mention it, none at all.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

keithmoonhangover wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:At his best? no problem. Larry Holmes via split decision and Pinklon Thomas via Majority decision. The Smith fight was a dive, so need to mention it.

Yep, no need to mention it, none at all.

Fair enough. If you prefer to rank a man based on a single scandalous fight while ignoring the quality work he did that was legit, then that's your perogative and I won't argue with you for it. Personally I prefer to focus on fights that were on the level and involved meaningful wins.

Ezzard wrote: One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

Giancarlo wrote:

Ezzard wrote: One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

I agree.

He'd already easily beaten Smith and I think he thought he could do it again without much effort.

He sauntered out of his corner like he was going down to the shops to get the morning paper and BOOM he was on the deck.

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

Giancarlo wrote:

Ezzard wrote: One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

Ezzard wrote: One last thing, throwing a fight should be seen as worse than losing it. But I don't believe Tim threw the fight. I think he was unfocused...then he often was...

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

He wasn't hurt, it was a 'dive'.

Controversial wrote:Rubbish, watch the fight. Witherspoon was covering up and got caught with a big right hand and never recovered. When he got up from the first knockdown he was wobbly and had a bleeding nose, was trying to fight back and got floored again, slumping backwards into the ropes when he stood up. He was then being battered, trying to cover up but was clubbed to their floor. There is no truth behind the "fix" story, he just lost.

Controversial wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

- Tony Tubbs = MD win
- Greg Page = MD win
- Frank Bruno = Stoppage win (behind on points)
- Bonecrusher Smith = UD win then lost in 1 round
- Renaldo Snipes = MD win
- Quick Tillis = 1st round win (good win over a nearly man)
- James Broad = Far from world class
- Jose Ribalta = MD win pts
- Carl Williams = SD win pts
- Jorge Gonzalez = Stoppage win but far from world class
- Alfred Cole = UD win over a cruiserweight who lost to almost every HW he fought

For someone so highly rated he sure did seem to struggle to beat 2nd tier heavyweights !!!

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Giancarlo wrote:

As I recall he wasn't that badly hurt but Smith wouldn't give him any chance to recover and it was stopped on the 3 knockdown rule.

He wasn't hurt, it was a 'dive'.

Rubbish, watch the fight. Witherspoon was covering up and got caught with a big right hand and never recovered. When he got up from the first knockdown he was wobbly and had a bleeding nose, was trying to fight back and got floored again, slumping backwards into the ropes when he stood up. He was then being battered, trying to cover up but was clubbed to their floor. There is no truth behind the "fix" story, he just lost.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

Controversial wrote:

drunkenpiper36 wrote:To reiterate,

Tim Witherspoon defeated:

- Tony Tubbs
- Greg Page
- Frank Bruno
- Bonecrusher Smith
- Renaldo Snipes
- Quick Tillis
- James Broad
- Jose Ribalta
- Carl Williams
- Jorge Gonzalez
- Alfred Cole

*** He was also arguably robbed against Ray Mercer and may even have deserved a draw against Larry Holmes. I can think of a few linear heavyweight champions who can't claim to having a career like this.****

- Tony Tubbs = MD win
- Greg Page = MD win
- Frank Bruno = Stoppage win (behind on points)
- Bonecrusher Smith = UD win then lost in 1 round
- Renaldo Snipes = MD win
- Quick Tillis = 1st round win (good win over a nearly man)
- James Broad = Far from world class
- Jose Ribalta = MD win pts
- Carl Williams = SD win pts
- Jorge Gonzalez = Stoppage win but far from world class
- Alfred Cole = UD win over a cruiserweight who lost to almost every HW he fought

For someone so highly rated he sure did seem to struggle to beat 2nd tier heavyweights !!!

Did you see those fights or is it just convenient to look up boxrec ratings and agree with the judges? Also, you're calling those men " second tier heavyweights" when in fact, a lot of them were highly ranked at the time, and a few of whom Larry Holmes had even tip toed around.