Sonny Liston "Of Course I Took A Dive In Maine"

[keithmoonhangover]

What's the difference? He would have got a worse ass beating than the first time.

Agreed. His face would have been a mess if he lasted twelve rounds.

[keithmoonhangover]

The Bout Meant Nothing To Sonny

The bout in Lewiston was simply about 'business'.

Sonny backed the 'Brinks Truck' up to the Bank, and headed back to Denver to hang low for a few months.

Few know, that Sonny took off, and out of Maine the next day, May 26th.

There were about 100 Newsmen and Sportswriters waiting to talk to Sonny, and they got 'nothing'.

So you think Sonny threw the fight? And as a boxing fan, you're Ok with that?

[ThatOne]

What's the difference? He would have got a worse ass beating than the first time.

Agreed. His face would have been a mess if he lasted twelve rounds.

He would have been lumped up too bad to last twelve rounds.

[ThatOne]

The Bout Meant Nothing To Sonny

The bout in Lewiston was simply about 'business'.

Sonny backed the 'Brinks Truck' up to the Bank, and headed back to Denver to hang low for a few months.

Few know, that Sonny took off, and out of Maine the next day, May 26th.

There were about 100 Newsmen and Sportswriters waiting to talk to Sonny, and they got 'nothing'.

So you think Sonny threw the fight? And as a boxing fan, you're Ok with that?

I know it was intended for Duce but I think Sonny had every intention to fight up to and when the fight began. It reminds me a lot of Leonard Duran ll. They both realized they had no chance of winning and wanted an easy way out.

[ThatOne]

The Bout Meant Nothing To Sonny

The bout in Lewiston was simply about 'business'.

Sonny backed the 'Brinks Truck' up to the Bank, and headed back to Denver to hang low for a few months.

Few know, that Sonny took off, and out of Maine the next day, May 26th.

There were about 100 Newsmen and Sportswriters waiting to talk to Sonny, and they got 'nothing'.

So you think Sonny threw the fight? And as a boxing fan, you're Ok with that?

No,

But once you understand the 'particulars', then you can justify 'the dive'.

How can you 'crucify' Sonny Boy for the Lewiston, Maine fight - yet let Muhammad Ali slide off on the Antonio Inoki 'fiasco'.

Because one was clearly labeled as an exhibition and the other wasn't. If you dispute that can you point to the Inoki exhibition on Muhammad Ali's fight record?

A person would have had to have the mind of a twelve year old as that's the last age a normal individual believes "rasslin" is real to think Ali- Inoki was a real fight.

[keithmoonhangover]

Because one was clearly labeled as an exhibition and the other wasn't. If you dispute that can you point to the Inoki exhibition on Muhammad Ali's fight record?

A person would have had to have the mind of a twelve year old as that's the last age a normal individual believes "rasslin" is real to think Ali- Inoki was a real fight.

Sense.

[keithmoonhangover]

Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki

Was 'sold' to the Public as a legitimate engagement.

Muhammad Ali 'took' $6,100,000 for 'garbage' to be thrown at him by the respectful Japanese fans.

He never apologized to the Japanese people.

At least Antonio Inoki made many public apologies, and cried asking for forgiveness.

Antonio Inoki opened up '10' Martial Arts schools throughout Japan, and gave away 'Free Enrollment'
to anyone under the Age of 20 with his Fight Purse.

Muhammad Ali bought several homes, Rolls Royce cars and expensive 'Prayer Rugs' with his money,,,,,,,,,,,'PHONEY'

Not being funny or anything and don't take this the wrong way, but please stop posting this stuff. You're an intelligent guy, it's beneath you.

[BoxBuzz]

Keith...he believes it....does not make him unintelligent.....just overly "open minded"...someone threw that thought into his "open mind"....and he has no way of casting it out once it found a home. lol.

I love this conversation.....and I like Il Duce's imagination....and that he is lost in his own mindcraft construct......And I, like Il Duce have too much time on my hands. lol.

So I offer up some more verbage.....for your consideration.

We all have strong "feelings" about things that happen.....it's sparked a cottage industry regarding the Kennedy Assassination (very similar..as the question was..how could THAT MAN do this thing to THAT MAN.......and then there are the folks who question were there really "men on the moon.

Something that has never happened before...and then "it happens". It's not comfortable, and we tend to question it and that's a good thing.

I'm going to point some information that is at least of interest about the KD/KO.

1. At first it was claimed by many that there was no punch. It never happened
2. Then many said they did indeed see a punch but it would likely calm a dog, and should be considered a "pat on the head".
3. That Sonny literally fell down without cause
4. Films proved otherwise...there was a punch, and the fall appeared to take place immediately after.


5. Still doubt.... some folks like me felt..Ok I see the punch but still that punch did not have the power to create this reaction. The juxtaposition of the fighters was too unusual to produce the outcome.


Now after viewing that film, I can report to you only this.

It simply COULD be exactly what it looks like, Liston got his bell very rung. And remained somewhat composed but still very disoriented. And the disorientation came in waves. Somewhat like a liver shot...but in balance not in pain.

And that is rather interesting. That it COULD be just what it looks like. Because for so long, and for so many people it just didn't "Feel" right. But it's all there, and it COULD be exactly what it is.

And for so so long, for so many people....this was not even a possibility. Largely due to how this makes us "feel".

Il Duce's narrative is a great book, it's got plenty of drama and "feeling" and intrigue built right in. And except for his wild channeling and apparent falsification of Liston's own words, even parts of that scenario COULD be true. However it is now more complicated due to the fact that there really IS proof and there is a high probability that this punch was debilitating.

The physics may be boring..although the inner ear stuff and closely tracking the body mechanics of the impact has Yancey thinking I'm a mystic who believes in wild alien life theories. So I suppose I have that going for my contributions.

[ThatOne]

Muhammad Ali vs. Antonio Inoki

Was 'sold' to the Public as a legitimate engagement.

Muhammad Ali 'took' $6,100,000 for 'garbage' to be thrown at him by the respectful Japanese fans.

He never apologized to the Japanese people.

At least Antonio Inoki made many public apologies, and cried asking for forgiveness.

Antonio Inoki opened up '10' Martial Arts schools throughout Japan, and gave away 'Free Enrollment'
to anyone under the Age of 20 with his Fight Purse.

Muhammad Ali bought several homes, Rolls Royce cars and expensive 'Prayer Rugs' with his money,,,,,,,,,,,'PHONEY'

You're insulting the Japanese people by implying they thought /think "rasslin" is real.

[ThatOne]

Keith...he believes it....does not make him unintelligent.....just overly "open minded"...someone threw that thought into his "open mind"....and he has no way of casting it out once it found a home. lol.

I love this conversation.....and I like Il Duce's imagination....and that he is lost in his own mindcraft construct......And I, like Il Duce have too much time on my hands. lol.

So I offer up some more verbage.....for your consideration.

We all have strong "feelings" about things that happen.....it's sparked a cottage industry regarding the Kennedy Assassination (very similar..as the question was..how could THAT MAN do this thing to THAT MAN.......and then there are the folks who question were there really "men on the moon.

Something that has never happened before...and then "it happens". It's not comfortable, and we tend to question it and that's a good thing.

I'm going to point some information that is at least of interest about the KD/KO.

1. At first it was claimed by many that there was no punch. It never happened
2. Then many said they did indeed see a punch but it would likely calm a dog, and should be considered a "pat on the head".
3. That Sonny literally fell down without cause
4. Films proved otherwise...there was a punch, and the fall appeared to take place immediately after.


5. Still doubt.... some folks like me felt..Ok I see the punch but still that punch did not have the power to create this reaction. The juxtaposition of the fighters was too unusual to produce the outcome.


Now after viewing that film, I can report to you only this.

It simply COULD be exactly what it looks like, Liston got his bell very rung. And remained somewhat composed but still very disoriented. And the disorientation came in waves. Somewhat like a liver shot...but in balance not in pain.

And that is rather interesting. That it COULD be just what it looks like. Because for so long, and for so many people it just didn't "Feel" right. But it's all there, and it COULD be exactly what it is.

And for so so long, for so many people....this was not even a possibility. Largely due to how this makes us "feel".

Il Duce's narrative is a great book, it's got plenty of drama and "feeling" and intrigue built right in. And except for his wild channeling and apparent falsification of Liston's own words, even parts of that scenario COULD be true. However it is now more complicated due to the fact that there really IS proof and there is a high probability that this punch was debilitating.

The physics may be boring..although the inner ear stuff and closely tracking the body mechanics of the impact has Yancey thinking I'm a mystic who believes in wild alien life theories. So I suppose I have that going for my contributions.

Why can't it be that Liston got hit by a glazing blow to the head, got knocked down, could have got up, but chose not to so as to avoid a more sustained ass beating?

Lord Occam would have endorsed that explanation.

[BoxBuzz]

I've never gotten into the conversation of "after KD".

Other than express my opinion which is not all that different than yours.

I'm actually glad to see that for the most part....even those who buy into the more bizarre scenarios are coming to agreement that it all began with a legitimate knockdown.

And to knock Liston down.....well that's an achievement to be proud of all by itself.

What transpired after that....Who knows?

I do not pretend to have any knowledge whatsoever of what was "IN" Liston's noggin. Only Il Duce knows that. I do claim to have some expertise, and have tried to share it, with what happened "TO" Liston's noggin at point of impact...regarding an infamous punch that so many have claimed "NEVER HAPPENED".

[keithmoonhangover]

Fred Brooks, President of Sports Vision Inc.

"I had to laugh off the theory that a few Black Muslims came up here to visit Sonny Liston. Let me
tell you, Sonny Liston had better security guarding him than the Pope."

"Besides a close friend Bill 'Munsey' Munson, and a personal Security Guard the size of Mount Everest, Sonny also
had several FBI Agents by his side at all times, '20' State Troopers from Maine, and half the 'damn' Lewiston, Maine
Police Department guarding the perimeter areas."

"And the Insurance Company who under-wrote the $1,000,000 Life Insurance Policy on Sonny, had '3' of their
Top Security Specialists watching him 24-Hours-a-Day. It cost me $1000 for that Policy at a 1000-1 Rate
Pay-Out."

"If anybody thinks they got to Charles Liston before this fight, their sadly mistaken. Sonny made the decision
to 'dive' all by himself. You ask why, and I'll tell you it was 'spite'. He wanted to shove the whole thing down
the throats of everybody {The Boxing Business}. He has no interest in the Boxing game anymore. As a matter
of fact, he hasn't had interest in Boxing in a long time."

Imagine how little you'd post if you weren't allowed to copy and paste.

[keithmoonhangover]

No Cut and Paste

Just imagine where the 'The Who' would be, if they couldn't do 'Cover Songs' back from 1964 thru 1967.

Without 'Summertime Blues', they would be doing 'Pictures of Lilly' every single night...................

You're right mate, it'd be terrible to only have to play I Can't Explain, My Generation, Substitute, I Can See for Miles, Zoot Suit, I'm A Boy, Happy Jack and I'm The Face.

[gilgamesh]

I think Buzz is 1/2 right. I've always believed the knockDOWN was a genuine flash knockdown. But I think he could have gotten up again just about as quickly. Why Sonny chose to flop around on the canvas like a beached whale is something only Sonny knew and took to the grave with him.

This is my stance on it. Dr. Buzz did indeed convince that if nothing else, the knockdown itself was probably legit, but I still will never believe the impact of the shot was enough for Liston to do his whole "flopping around" act that you speak of.

The knockdown I believe is legit...that it was a hard enough shot to keep Liston on the canvas for the count of 10 is not.

It was a dive. No doubt in my mind.

[p4p1]

Fred Brooks, President of Sports Vision Inc.

"I had to laugh off the theory that a few Black Muslims came up here to visit Sonny Liston. Let me
tell you, Sonny Liston had better security guarding him than the Pope."

"Besides a close friend Bill 'Munsey' Munson, and a personal Security Guard the size of Mount Everest, Sonny also
had several FBI Agents by his side at all times, '20' State Troopers from Maine, and half the 'damn' Lewiston, Maine
Police Department guarding the perimeter areas."

"And the Insurance Company who under-wrote the $1,000,000 Life Insurance Policy on Sonny, had '3' of their
Top Security Specialists watching him 24-Hours-a-Day. It cost me $1000 for that Policy at a 1000-1 Rate
Pay-Out."

"If anybody thinks they got to Charles Liston before this fight, their sadly mistaken. Sonny made the decision
to 'dive' all by himself. You ask why, and I'll tell you it was 'spite'. He wanted to shove the whole thing down
the throats of everybody {The Boxing Business}. He has no interest in the Boxing game anymore. As a matter
of fact, he hasn't had interest in Boxing in a long time."

Imagine how little you'd post if you weren't allowed to copy and paste.

I think you're forgetting about all of the original work he also produces.

[keithmoonhangover]

I think you're forgetting about all of the original work he also produces.

On which subject?

[gilgamesh]

What's A Poor Boy To Do

Keith,

Are you aware, that Sonny Boy was 'banned' from participating in Professional Boxing in 48 of the 50 States
prior to the bout in Maine.

As well as all of Europe and the British-Commonwealth.

You do know that none of that was Ali's fault don't you?

I really don't think he does. As much as he hates him...somehow everything in his world revolves around Ali. If he gets a paycheck and it's 20 dollars short...Ali must've had something to do with it. If it was supposed to be a Sunny Day and it starts to Rain...f*cking Ali again f*cking his day up.

His whole world seems to revolve around him.

[keithmoonhangover]

I really don't think he does. As much as he hates him...somehow everything in his world revolves around Ali. If he gets a paycheck and it's 20 dollars short...Ali must've had something to do with it. If it was supposed to be a Sunny Day and it starts to Rain...f*cking Ali again f*cking his day up.

His whole world seems to revolve around him.

[keithmoonhangover]

I Can See For Miles

Released on October 10, 1967

Final Editing September 10, 1967

They weren't really playing this song until mid-1967.

Before that.......'Heat Wave' and 'Barbara Ann' were the key songs in the Play List........ ;;-)

Is there a point to this stuff?

[keithmoonhangover]

I Don't Mind

Was a cover of James Brown.

Cut and Paste is required, just like a Cover Song.................

I find this a little creepy if I'm honest.

[gilgamesh]

I Can See For Miles

Released on October 10, 1967

Final Editing September 10, 1967

They weren't really playing this song until mid-1967.

Before that.......'Heat Wave' and 'Barbara Ann' were the key songs in the Play List........ ;;-)

Bands doing cover songs to kickstart their careers was common place in those days.

The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, hell even Bob Dylan's first album. Consist mostly of cover songs.

Just the way sh*t worked at that time.

All of these bands had more success and notoriety when they started to do their own thing...with good cause, Their own thing kicked ass.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

Imagine if Granberry came back? He and Duce could do some real damage together.

[Giancarlo]

Imagine if Granberry came back? He and Duce could do some real damage together.

granberry hated Ali as much as The Duchess but the difference was granberry actually knew something about boxing and didn't rely on made up 'quotes'.

[gilgamesh]

Imagine if Granberry came back? He and Duce could do some real damage together.

granberry hated Ali as much as The Duchess but the difference was granberry actually knew something about boxing and didn't rely on made up 'quotes'.

Duce knows something about Boxing too clearly, but still you are correct he does rely on made up quotes...at least to fuel his ongoing Ali rants.

[keithmoonhangover]

Maine

Nobody had ever seen Sonny Boy on the canvas, not even in advanced age.

Throw out the freaky bout with Marty Marshall, and Sonny Liston was 'canvas free'.

Ok, maybe a slip or off-balance fall against Cassius in Maine could have been accepted in a
getting warmed up 1st-Round.

But down, not once but 'twice' in 17-Seconds.

And after Sonny got up, he came forward not backwards after getting his gloves 'wiped' by Jersey Joe Walcott.

Do you think Sonny would have won if the fight had been allowed to continue?