BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:If,

* Duke Sabedong could go 10 Rounds

* Rudi Lubbers could go 12 Rounds

* Buster Mathis could go 12-Rounds

* Alfredo Evangelista could go 15-Rounds

Buster Mathis was actually a decent boxer. Just give it up you loser!

Nile4000 wrote:Love Wilt as a Basketball player, but him and Jim Brown would've been in over their heads in a boxing ring.

I disagree to a point. As stated earlier, the statistics show that basketball players traditionally have had more success than any other sport has in the past, when making the transition to boxing. I gave an example some time ago of Buster Douglas being a highschool/college level ball player who turned to boxing in his later years and became world champion. Another world champion who originally was a basketball player (no surprise) was Nicolai Valuev. And, though there are many others, I will give one more example of a man who has been on the fringe of contendency for years and that's Julius Long, who also was a basketball player.

I know there is an extreme difference between sparring/exhibitions and actual fights, but does anyone else remember the video of Shaq sparring Oliver McCall and rocking him with a head shot? Though a sparring match, it is rather remarkable (imho at least) that a man who never had any real experience in boxing, takes up the gloves and hurts McCall with a single shot--- and McCall is/was considered one of the sport's greatest iron chins. The later exhibitions with Shane Mosley and Oscar De La Hoya were obvious jokes and just for fun--- I recall when Shaq did the Mosley 'fight' he actually got down on his knees at one point and boxed the former welterweight champ.

Basketball, more so than football or any other team sport, requires so much in terms of overall conditioning and agility, that its really no big leap to make the transition from it to boxing or any other combat sport--- the key elements for both are in the game: agility, conditioning, accuracy, reflexes, speed, timing, precision, etc. that's why you have guys like Teddy Atlas always lament on television that all the "heavyweight champions" are not in boxing, but on the basketball court. Football (American version anyways) is more about brute force, power, and short bursts of speed and explosiveness--- and therefore, there's never been a man from a football background who ever became world champion in the boxing ring; and most of these guys fail to remain as contenders for very long (or never make it there at all). Probably the best man from a football background was Charley Norkus.

However, this thread is about Chamberlain and his overall athleticism and strength as an athlete, more so than the 'Ali vs Chamberlain' debate that has been going on for over thirty years. The following stats and figures show Chamberlain's overall wide scope of athleticism and strength in various fields of sports, not just basketball.

National Basketball Records & Stats:

Most Points In a Single Game (100)
Never Fouled Out in Entire Career
Averaged 48 Minutes of Play Per Game
Is the only NBA player to ever average 30 points and 20 rebounds per game throughout a career
Is responsible for many changes in the NBA rules such as goal tending, over the back fouls, and widening the lane because Chamberlain was so fast, strong, and had a 50" vertical leap that he could do things that no one else could at that time

Volleyball:

Is but one of a handful of professional athletes to ever be elected into another sports HOF; Chamberlain was also president of the International Volleyball Association in 1975. He was considered second best to Keith Erikson in the United States when it came to overall worth as a player. Chamberlain's schedule in the NBA prevented him from playing more often in volleyball, but many historians of the game felt Chamberlain could have easily been the greatest player of all time had he devoted more energies to the sport.

Track & Field:

(Less than 1 week initial preperation) Broke the KU record of 6'6.4" (high jump)
Shot Put (56 feet)
Triple Jump (Over 50 feet)
100 Yard Dash (10.9 seconds)
Won the High Jump three years in a row in Big Eight Track & Field competitions


Physical All-Around Strength:

According to Arnold Schwarzenegger, during their time on the set of CONAN THE DESTROYER, Chamberlain was capable of a 500 pound bench press--- which amazed Arnold because of Chamberlain's long arms. What also amazed Arnold is that in various curls, Chamberlain was capable of doing as much as 40 pounds more than what the strongest people Schwarzenegger ever met could do (in one instance, tricep extension, Chamberlain easily did 175 pounds; Arnold himself could only do between 100-110 pound tricep extensions). Also throughout filming, there seemed to be a rival (but friendly) competition between Chamberlain and Andre Renee Rousimoff (Andre The Giant) as to who could pick up and lift Arnold the most and the highest; Chamberlain could lift Arnold well over his head with a single hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

^^^Videos of eyewitnesses to Chamberlain's strength (part one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

^^^Videos of eyewitnesses to Chamberlain's strength (part two)

Apparently even at the age of 59 Chamberlain was capable of bench pressing 465 pounds. What is remarkable of this is that Shaq (who I mentioned earlier in the page) at his best was capable of bench pressing 450 pounds. At Chamberlain's peak, he could clean and jerk 375 pounds and deadlift 625 pounds. Now, according to Dave Anderson who wrote the 1999 article "The Good Natured Giant Wasn't Belligerent", he told the account of Chamberlain (who had long since retired from basketball, but hinted at a comeback) saw two deliverymen having a hard time lifting a dolly full of boxes from off an elevator onto the ground floor. Chamberlain asked if he could lift it for them, and without much effort lifted the entire thing onto the ground floor. The dolly, the boxes, etc. all weighed well over 600 pounds.

And of course, there are the dozens of tales of Chamberlain lifting basketball players off the ground to break up fights, or when they attempted to steal the ball or block the ball from Chamberlain he would lift them off the ground with the greatest of ease and slam dunk the ball into the hoop. And most of the foolish who attempted to do so, were men in excess of 6'6" in height and 250 pounds in weight. In short, Chamberlain was easily the greatest all around athlete as well as the strongest player in NBA history.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Nile4000 wrote:Love Wilt as a Basketball player, but him and Jim Brown would've been in over their heads in a boxing ring.

I disagree to a point. As stated earlier, the statistics show that basketball players traditionally have had more success than any other sport has in the past, when making the transition to boxing. I gave an example some time ago of Buster Douglas being a highschool/college level ball player who turned to boxing in his later years and became world champion. Another world champion who originally was a basketball player (no surprise) was Nicolai Valuev. And, though there are many others, I will give one more example of a man who has been on the fringe of contendency for years and that's Julius Long, who also was a basketball player.

I know there is an extreme difference between sparring/exhibitions and actual fights, but does anyone else remember the video of Shaq sparring Oliver McCall and rocking him with a head shot? Though a sparring match, it is rather remarkable (imho at least) that a man who never had any real experience in boxing, takes up the gloves and hurts McCall with a single shot--- and McCall is/was considered one of the sport's greatest iron chins. The later exhibitions with Shane Mosley and Oscar De La Hoya were obvious jokes and just for fun--- I recall when Shaq did the Mosley 'fight' he actually got down on his knees at one point and boxed the former welterweight champ.

Basketball, more so than football or any other team sport, requires so much in terms of overall conditioning and agility, that its really no big leap to make the transition from it to boxing or any other combat sport--- the key elements for both are in the game: agility, conditioning, accuracy, reflexes, speed, timing, precision, etc. that's why you have guys like Teddy Atlas always lament on television that all the "heavyweight champions" are not in boxing, but on the basketball court. Football (American version anyways) is more about brute force, power, and short bursts of speed and explosiveness--- and therefore, there's never been a man from a football background who ever became world champion in the boxing ring; and most of these guys fail to remain as contenders for very long (or never make it there at all). Probably the best man from a football background was Charley Norkus.

However, this thread is about Chamberlain and his overall athleticism and strength as an athlete, more so than the 'Ali vs Chamberlain' debate that has been going on for over thirty years. The following stats and figures show Chamberlain's overall wide scope of athleticism and strength in various fields of sports, not just basketball.

National Basketball Records & Stats:

Most Points In a Single Game (100)
Never Fouled Out in Entire Career
Averaged 48 Minutes of Play Per Game
Is the only NBA player to ever average 30 points and 20 rebounds per game throughout a career
Is responsible for many changes in the NBA rules such as goal tending, over the back fouls, and widening the lane because Chamberlain was so fast, strong, and had a 50" vertical leap that he could do things that no one else could at that time

Volleyball:

Is but one of a handful of professional athletes to ever be elected into another sports HOF; Chamberlain was also president of the International Volleyball Association in 1975. He was considered second best to Keith Erikson in the United States when it came to overall worth as a player. Chamberlain's schedule in the NBA prevented him from playing more often in volleyball, but many historians of the game felt Chamberlain could have easily been the greatest player of all time had he devoted more energies to the sport.

Track & Field:

(Less than 1 week initial preperation) Broke the KU record of 6'6.4" (high jump)
Shot Put (56 feet)
Triple Jump (Over 50 feet)
100 Yard Dash (10.9 seconds)
Won the High Jump three years in a row in Big Eight Track & Field competitions


Physical All-Around Strength:

According to Arnold Schwarzenegger, during their time on the set of CONAN THE DESTROYER, Chamberlain was capable of a 500 pound bench press--- which amazed Arnold because of Chamberlain's long arms. What also amazed Arnold is that in various curls, Chamberlain was capable of doing as much as 40 pounds more than what the strongest people Schwarzenegger ever met could do (in one instance, tricep extension, Chamberlain easily did 175 pounds; Arnold himself could only do between 100-110 pound tricep extensions). Also throughout filming, there seemed to be a rival (but friendly) competition between Chamberlain and Andre Renee Rousimoff (Andre The Giant) as to who could pick up and lift Arnold the most and the highest; Chamberlain could lift Arnold well over his head with a single hand.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STXbuXGPdoY

^^^Videos of eyewitnesses to Chamberlain's strength (part one)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrpmGuCmGnc

^^^Videos of eyewitnesses to Chamberlain's strength (part two)

Apparently even at the age of 59 Chamberlain was capable of bench pressing 465 pounds. What is remarkable of this is that Shaq (who I mentioned earlier in the page) at his best was capable of bench pressing 450 pounds. At Chamberlain's peak, he could clean and jerk 375 pounds and deadlift 625 pounds. Now, according to Dave Anderson who wrote the 1999 article "The Good Natured Giant Wasn't Belligerent", he told the account of Chamberlain (who had long since retired from basketball, but hinted at a comeback) saw two deliverymen having a hard time lifting a dolly full of boxes from off an elevator onto the ground floor. Chamberlain asked if he could lift it for them, and without much effort lifted the entire thing onto the ground floor. The dolly, the boxes, etc. all weighed well over 600 pounds.

And of course, there are the dozens of tales of Chamberlain lifting basketball players off the ground to break up fights, or when they attempted to steal the ball or block the ball from Chamberlain he would lift them off the ground with the greatest of ease and slam dunk the ball into the hoop. And most of the foolish who attempted to do so, were men in excess of 6'6" in height and 250 pounds in weight. In short, Chamberlain was easily the greatest all around athlete as well as the strongest player in NBA history.

Err no, Daley Thompson was. And nobody is trying to put him forward as an amazing potential boxer.

polecateddy wrote:
Err no, Daley Thompson was. And nobody is trying to put him forward as an amazing potential boxer.

Out of interest why Daley Thompson and not Ashton Eaton?

Controversial wrote:

polecateddy wrote:
Err no, Daley Thompson was. And nobody is trying to put him forward as an amazing potential boxer.

Out of interest why Daley Thompson and not Ashton Eaton?

Interest level is low as I have no fricking idea who Ashton Eat Me is?!

You're right, Ali was afraid of a man who threw balls through hoops for a living.The man who fought Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Norton etc was afraid of a gangly basketball player who's biggest claims to fame are being really good at a game, and that he was so insecure in his manhood that he couldn't shut up about how many women he stuck his dick in.

You are touched in the head. Seriously. I'd say something again about how you are just completely obsessed with Ali in an unhealthy way, but I don't even think you're getting it at all, pretty sure you can't. I genuinely believe you to be mentally ill in some way.

Bobbyptsd wrote:I genuinely believe you to be mentally ill in some way.

Yeah, he's a total nutjob.

The way Buzz leads him around this small stage by his snout is amusing though.

For amusement here is a former baseball star getting pounded by a K1 star;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af8NmSimsL8

Wilt was a phenomenal athlete and the best basketball player of all time. However, he didn't just pick up a basketball and in 6 months later was the best basketball player. He played basketball in High School and College. So even if by some chance he was a natural in boxing, it would have taken him several years to be a top level boxer, and he would have had to have done that full time and given up basketball.

Err no, Daley Thompson was. And nobody is trying to put him forward as an amazing potential boxer.

What you highlighted was (again) a misinterpretation of what I stated. I did not mean literally that Chamberlain was the greatest all around athlete of all time---- what I stated was that Chamberlain was the greatest all around athlete to ever play in the NBA (of all time, thus far). But if you want to get into that debate, I still believe the honors for the best male athlete of all time belongs to Jim Thorpe, who dominated track & field, collegiate and professional football, collegiate basketball and showed varied athletic prowess in other fields (such as, but not all) baseball and even boxing--- for he fought an exhibition with Max Baer when Thorpe was in his 40's and Baer remarked that Thorpe could have become a world champion boxer, had he started earlier in life in that field.

My argument, however, for Chamberlain is that he needed little time or instruction to dominate other sports. In college he was of course the hottest property in basketball, but to prove he was not simply some big goon he demonstrated his tremendous speed and all around abilities on the track field. His vertical jumps of 50" proved time and again in the Big Eight competitions that he could easily dominate the high jump, triple jump, etc. and of course--- in later life--- dominated the volleyball world though he was just a part time player. Factor in that his strength, which was completely natural rather than built up, was such that he was easily beating professional bodybuilders and weight lifters in the gyms he was absolutely a natural all around athlete who could best the best amateur and professional level competitors in other sports.



Still, this will never conclusively prove that he could have made the transition into boxing, my two cents worth thinks he could have. Maybe he wouldn't of beaten Ali, or anyone else in the top ten--- but for it being the 1970's (the greatest era in heavyweight history) it isnt a disgrace to say he couldnt. If my memory serves me correct, however, the notion of Chamberlain becoming a boxer stemmed some years before he even went on ABC's Wide World of Sports and did the media stunt with Ali--- for Chamberlain was on the cover of RING magazine with Floyd Patterson and it was discussed even then, how a Chamberlain/Patterson match would of gone. As fast as Chamberlain picked up and dominated other sports, I think had he seriously concentrated on boxing for a year or better before entering into the ring, he probably would have rose to the top rather quickly (mostly because of his name value and size).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 9,37116201

^^^Article where Chamberlain expresses regret that he not only never got to fight Ali, but also never got to compete in the Olympic Decathalon like he wanted to; and he also supports what I already said, that Chamberlain in the 60's was already in negotiations to fight Floyd Patterson and as early as 1956 he was being offered by promoters to box after he left the Harlem Globetrotters

HomicideHenry wrote:

Err no, Daley Thompson was. And nobody is trying to put him forward as an amazing potential boxer.

What you highlighted was (again) a misinterpretation of what I stated. I did not mean literally that Chamberlain was the greatest all around athlete of all time---- what I stated was that Chamberlain was the greatest all around athlete to ever play in the NBA (of all time, thus far). But if you want to get into that debate, I still believe the honors for the best male athlete of all time belongs to Jim Thorpe, who dominated track & field, collegiate and professional football, collegiate basketball and showed varied athletic prowess in other fields (such as, but not all) baseball and even boxing--- for he fought an exhibition with Max Baer when Thorpe was in his 40's and Baer remarked that Thorpe could have become a world champion boxer, had he started earlier in life in that field.

My argument, however, for Chamberlain is that he needed little time or instruction to dominate other sports. In college he was of course the hottest property in basketball, but to prove he was not simply some big goon he demonstrated his tremendous speed and all around abilities on the track field. His vertical jumps of 50" proved time and again in the Big Eight competitions that he could easily dominate the high jump, triple jump, etc. and of course--- in later life--- dominated the volleyball world though he was just a part time player. Factor in that his strength, which was completely natural rather than built up, was such that he was easily beating professional bodybuilders and weight lifters in the gyms he was absolutely a natural all around athlete who could best the best amateur and professional level competitors in other sports.



Still, this will never conclusively prove that he could have made the transition into boxing, my two cents worth thinks he could have. Maybe he wouldn't of beaten Ali, or anyone else in the top ten--- but for it being the 1970's (the greatest era in heavyweight history) it isnt a disgrace to say he couldnt. If my memory serves me correct, however, the notion of Chamberlain becoming a boxer stemmed some years before he even went on ABC's Wide World of Sports and did the media stunt with Ali--- for Chamberlain was on the cover of RING magazine with Floyd Patterson and it was discussed even then, how a Chamberlain/Patterson match would of gone. As fast as Chamberlain picked up and dominated other sports, I think had he seriously concentrated on boxing for a year or better before entering into the ring, he probably would have rose to the top rather quickly (mostly because of his name value and size).

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 9,37116201

^^^Article where Chamberlain expresses regret that he not only never got to fight Ali, but also never got to compete in the Olympic Decathalon like he wanted to; and he also supports what I already said, that Chamberlain in the 60's was already in negotiations to fight Floyd Patterson and as early as 1956 he was being offered by promoters to box after he left the Harlem Globetrotters

I think the clue is in the fact no other basketballers have done it. And those who have attempted it from other sports with no amateur background have flopped embarrassingly.

polecateddy wrote:I think the clue is in the fact no other basketballers have done it. And those who have attempted it from other sports with no amateur background have flopped embarrassingly.

As stated before, I did list some examples of basketball players who have indeed done it, or came close. Then again, not all basketball players had the overall abilities that Chamberlain did. There have been taller men since, better all-around players since, but none really came close to his overall speed, size, strength, athleticism and conditioning.

As for other sports, as I stated before, alot of sports have a certain degree of athleticism that is superior in some ways than basketball--- but the sport of basketball, all around, has the key elements that would make for a successful transition into boxing (especially among the heavyweight division). There has been several cross over competitors since time immemorial in boxing and the majority have failed for this reason or that reason--- but mainly due to a lack of fluidity and for the fact that most of these individuals went into it well passed their primes, having spent a career doing something altogether different.

Here's a list of athletes from other sports who attempted boxing:

-Dan Hodge (Olympic wrestler); failed to defeat Nino Valdes and subsequently retired

-Paul Anderson (Olympic weightlifter); after a handful of bouts against mediocre opponents retired

-Mark Gastineau (NFL player); could only manage wins against mediocre opposition

-Ed Jones (NFL player); could only manage wins against mediocre opposition

-Rick Roufus (Kickboxer); only made it to the journeyman level and subsequently retired

-Wayne Munn (Football); won a few fixed fights then was kayoed by a journeyman

-Tony Halme (Wrestler); managed to pick up the Finish Heavyweight title, but was rather limited

-Kimbo Slice (MMA/Streetfighter); showed his limitations against bottom level boxers

-Tonya Harding (Ice Skating); managed one or two wins, then retired after a brutal loss

-LaMar Clark (Football); does hold the world record for most consecutive kayos (45) but his wins were against pro debuters with no boxing experience and he subsequently was defeated by journeymen boxers and/or prospects

-Payl Sykes (Weightlifting); amateur weightlifting champion and street brawler whose reputation as a violent prisoner made him the "hardest man in Great Britain" but he ultimately failed to defeat anyone of any real consequence and would lose to John L. Gardener for the Commonwealth title (Note: Sykes did have years of experience as an amateur boxer as well)

-John Hoppoate (Rugby); was being styled as the 'next big thing' out of Australia until he was leveled in two rounds by a well over forty year old Oliver McCall

-Alonzo Highsmith (Football); could only defeat mediocre opponents

-George Lindberger (Football); journeyman boxer who lost to Butterbean

-Frank Bialowas (Hockey); have you heard of him? Pretty self explainatory


Now, here's a list of individuals who were exceptions to the rule:

-Mia St. John (Kickboxing); became women's world champion in boxing

-Jeremy Williams (Judo); became (for a time) one of the top ten contenders in boxing

-Holly Holm (Kickboxing); became the #1 p4p best woman boxer in the world for a time

-Paul Berlenbach (Wrestler); became Welterweight champion of the world

-Charley Norkus (Football); became a top ten contender in boxing (for a time)

-Anthony Mundine (Rubgy); became a world champion boxer and arguably Australia's #2 best boxer ever

-Troy Dorsey (Karate/Kickboxing/TaeKwando); became the featherweight boxing champion of the world while simultaneously holding a world karate championship

-Randall 'Tex' Cobb (Kickboxing); went 16-0 before losing to Ken Norton, and would later face Larry Holmes for the world title, and subsequently went on to star in Hollywood movies

Now, for the list of basketball players who were in boxing:

-James 'Buster' Douglas, highschool/collegiate basketball player, who fought Tony Tucker for the IBF belt, and of course defeated Mike Tyson in the greatest sports upset in history

-Nicolai Valuev, collegiate/professional basketball player, who fought John Ruiz for the WBA title, lost it to Ruslan Chagaev, and then regained the title and defended it against Jameel McCline, Evander Holyfield and lost it to David Haye

-Aaron Pryor Junior, highschool/collegiate basketball player, so far is in the journeyman status but for a while was being touted as a prospect

-Freddie Steele, collegiate basketball (and other sports), became one of the best boxers of the early 20th century

-Young Stribling, highschool basketball (at his time considered one of the best in the country), of course was one of the best boxers of his time

-Vonda Ward, collegiate basketball, became women's world heavyweight boxing champion

-Ronald Hearns, collegiate basketball, journeyman status but for a time was considered a high profile prospect

-Jennifer Childers, collegiate basketball, undefeated upon retirement she was one of the pioneers of revitalising women's boxing in the 1990's

-Tye Fields, collegiate basketball, became a long standing fringe contender in boxing

-Ron Lyle, basketball/baseball, fought for the world heavyweight title and was co-award winner with George Foreman for fight of the year

-Eddie Spence, collegiate basketball, became Light Heavyweight Champion of New England (back when such titles were worth something in the early 20th century)

-Eddie Machen, highschool basketball, one of the greatest contenders of all time and most notably remembered for having been ducked by Floyd Patterson


The list really goes on and on of people whose athletics originated in basketball who later went into boxing. While there may be some truth in an argument that could be made that I didnt give enough examples of athletes from other sports doing good--- or that I cherry picked the best known basketball players to go into boxing, etc. the fact remains that it seems my statements that basketball is a team sport that makes for a better transition into boxing than any other.

There have been other football players who went on to some success in boxing.

Charlie Powell was apro football player who was a solde journeyman. He was 1-1 vs Norkus, beat Nino Valdes and Johnny Summerlin.

Steve Hamas was a great football player at Penn State. He was a heavyweight contender in the 1930s. He beat Max Schmeling.

Ken Norton was an All-State football player in High School on a team that won the state championship. He was the WBC Heavyweight Champion.

The biggest fallacy that you keep pushing is revolves around how long it would take Chamberlain. Take your recent comment " My argument, however, for Chamberlain is that he needed little time or instruction to dominate other sports."

He didn't do it in "little time" in basketball and track. Beach volleyball or weight lifting, who knows; certainly not relevant.

If at all, it would have taken several years. He did not pick up a basketball, and 6 months later was the best player. It took him years in High School and College to get to that level.

He was involved in track even before he became interested in basketball.

Even if Chamberlain had all the physical charaterstics to be a great boxer(and that is a big if. For example, for all we know he had a glass jaw), it would have taken him years to hone that ability. At least 4 years of serious committment.

I don't doubt that Wilt Chamberlain had great athletic ability. But that doesn't mean that he could been a good fighter even if he had the athletic ability to do it.

Accomplished fighters have a certain mental makeup which is relatively rare. I am not saying that Chamberlain lacked courage, desire or intelligence. Many people who possess all three of the mentioned characteristics in abundance can still be out of their element when being in the boxing ring, especially as professional fighters.

- Chuck Johnston

Sully Montgomery, a fairly well-known 1920s heavyweight boxer, played for two teams in the National Football League, the Chicago Cardinals during 1923 and the Frankford Yellow Jackets during 1927.

- Chuck Johnston

The retired 36 year old 159lb 5'10" Oscar De La Hoya outpointing the 37 year old 325lb 7'1" Shaquille O'Neal (91" reach) in a 5 round exhibition (4x2 minutes then 1 minute final round)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG4jg14nUK8

Ambling Alp II wrote:
The biggest fallacy that you keep pushing is revolves around how long it would take Chamberlain. Take your recent comment " My argument, however, for Chamberlain is that he needed little time or instruction to dominate other sports."

He didn't do it in "little time" in basketball and track. Beach volleyball or weight lifting, who knows; certainly not relevant.

If at all, it would have taken several years. He did not pick up a basketball, and 6 months later was the best player. It took him years in High School and College to get to that level.

He was involved in track even before he became interested in basketball.

Even if Chamberlain had all the physical charaterstics to be a great boxer(and that is a big if. For example, for all we know he had a glass jaw), it would have taken him years to hone that ability. At least 4 years of serious committment.

I've always stated that the truth lies between two extremes; there is the consensus that either Chamberlain wouldn't of been good in boxing if he initially went into it because it would of taken years of preperation, and that he wasn't a great athlete initially, that it had to be developed--- then there is the other consensus that says he was always a great athlete from the start, and that he was so physically dominate, etc. that he would of made the successful jump into boxing immediately. Both sides of the equation are wrong.

Chamberlain's basketball prowess, in truth, was virtually there from the start. While as a highschool basketball player he was already being touted as the next big thing for the pro's. Far as I know of he did little in track & field during highschool until he was in Kansas University and with little less than a week's notice he already shattered the University's high jump record, and went on to be the high jump champion three years in a row in Big Eight competitions. The fact that he never followed up on going into the Olympics for track & field, and instead went into the Harlem Globetrotters goes to show that even with just three-four years of college--- as a part time athlete in that field--- he was a major stand out.

The fact that during the latter years of his basketball career, that he was such a force--- again as a part time player--- in the field of Volleyball is a testament to his longevity and ability to adapt to different rules and games. Factor in too, what you say is irrelevant, about how well he showed up and in many cases blown away professional and amateur weight lifters and bodybuilders when his entire career was focused around basketball is something tremendous as well. That's three different sports, all in all, each with different requirements to achieve greatness and he's essentially the stuff of legend in all three fields. Pretty tough feats to compete with, imho. He was doing things in the 1960s and 1970s that guys in the late 1980s and all the way into the present time are doing--- he was the Bo Jackson of his time (if not Jackson's superior).

Chuck1052 wrote:I don't doubt that Wilt Chamberlain had great athletic ability. But that doesn't mean that he could been a good fighter even if he had the athletic ability to do it.

Accomplished fighters have a certain mental makeup which is relatively rare. I am not saying that Chamberlain lacked courage, desire or intelligence. Many people who possess all three of the mentioned characteristics in abundance can still be out of their element when being in the boxing ring, especially as professional fighters.

- Chuck Johnston

You bring up one important issue, that I think may of been Chamberlain's downfall had he of went into boxing. Most accounts I have ever read of Wilt as a basketball player, is that virtually everyone is in agreement with is that he could have been all the more dominate and an all the more greater player (if that is even imaginable) had he been more ruthless and less caring on the court--- such was his strength and size and speed and abilities that he could have very easily of hurt players. The most often talked about act of kindness that Chamberlain did was how many a time he would back off on a slam dunk, because some man was foolish enough to put his hand and arm up to block the shot, and Wilt being so tender hearted didn't do the dunk because he knew he would snap the man's arm in half.

Strong as he was, tough as he was, fast and athletic as he was--- Wilt Chamberlain was a gentle giant. He was characterised as a villain because of his size whenever he played against Bill Russell and others--- that it was 'David vs Goliath' and all his life he was pegged as this enormous goon who was only great cus he was so big. It hurt and offended Wilt so much, that many times in his career he switched from offense to defense, in order to show that he could do more than force his way down the court and to the rim. He didn't want to be known as 'Fe, Fi, Fo, Fum' and tried his best to never get angry or show any signs of violence cus he knew that image was everything, and that it didnt take much for him to hurt anybody.

I think mentally, that would have hurt him--- even if it were Ali, the alleged greatest heavyweight of all time--- Wilt would have it in his head always 'not to hurt the man'. And that may very well of been a deciding issue as to why the fight never did happen anyways--- not because Wilt was scared of Ali, or didnt want to devote all his time and energies into doing one match, but because he was afraid that he'd be too afraid to hurt Ali or anyone else in the ring, and knew as an athlete you cant be a boxer with that kind of mentality and be a success.

Controversial wrote:The retired 36 year old 159lb 5'10" Oscar De La Hoya outpointing the 37 year old 325lb 7'1" Shaquille O'Neal (91" reach) in a 5 round exhibition (4x2 minutes then 1 minute final round)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG4jg14nUK8

And, do you honestly think Shaq was really trying in that exhibition? After all, as I stated before, I've seen Shaq spar with Oliver McCall and he rocked the iron chinned veteran rather easily. And, I've seen him box Shane Mosley--- and to show it wasnt serious--- he went down on his knees and boxed Mosley at one point in the exhibition.

HomicideHenry wrote:

polecateddy wrote:I think the clue is in the fact no other basketballers have done it. And those who have attempted it from other sports with no amateur background have flopped embarrassingly.

As stated before, I did list some examples of basketball players who have indeed done it, or came close. Then again, not all basketball players had the overall abilities that Chamberlain did. There have been taller men since, better all-around players since, but none really came close to his overall speed, size, strength, athleticism and conditioning.

As for other sports, as I stated before, alot of sports have a certain degree of athleticism that is superior in some ways than basketball--- but the sport of basketball, all around, has the key elements that would make for a successful transition into boxing (especially among the heavyweight division). There has been several cross over competitors since time immemorial in boxing and the majority have failed for this reason or that reason--- but mainly due to a lack of fluidity and for the fact that most of these individuals went into it well passed their primes, having spent a career doing something altogether different.

Here's a list of athletes from other sports who attempted boxing:

-Dan Hodge (Olympic wrestler); failed to defeat Nino Valdes and subsequently retired

-Paul Anderson (Olympic weightlifter); after a handful of bouts against mediocre opponents retired

-Mark Gastineau (NFL player); could only manage wins against mediocre opposition

-Ed Jones (NFL player); could only manage wins against mediocre opposition

-Rick Roufus (Kickboxer); only made it to the journeyman level and subsequently retired

-Wayne Munn (Football); won a few fixed fights then was kayoed by a journeyman

-Tony Halme (Wrestler); managed to pick up the Finish Heavyweight title, but was rather limited

-Kimbo Slice (MMA/Streetfighter); showed his limitations against bottom level boxers

-Tonya Harding (Ice Skating); managed one or two wins, then retired after a brutal loss

-LaMar Clark (Football); does hold the world record for most consecutive kayos (45) but his wins were against pro debuters with no boxing experience and he subsequently was defeated by journeymen boxers and/or prospects

-Payl Sykes (Weightlifting); amateur weightlifting champion and street brawler whose reputation as a violent prisoner made him the "hardest man in Great Britain" but he ultimately failed to defeat anyone of any real consequence and would lose to John L. Gardener for the Commonwealth title (Note: Sykes did have years of experience as an amateur boxer as well)

-John Hoppoate (Rugby); was being styled as the 'next big thing' out of Australia until he was leveled in two rounds by a well over forty year old Oliver McCall

-Alonzo Highsmith (Football); could only defeat mediocre opponents

-George Lindberger (Football); journeyman boxer who lost to Butterbean

-Frank Bialowas (Hockey); have you heard of him? Pretty self explainatory


Now, here's a list of individuals who were exceptions to the rule:

-Mia St. John (Kickboxing); became women's world champion in boxing

-Jeremy Williams (Judo); became (for a time) one of the top ten contenders in boxing

-Holly Holm (Kickboxing); became the #1 p4p best woman boxer in the world for a time

-Paul Berlenbach (Wrestler); became Welterweight champion of the world

-Charley Norkus (Football); became a top ten contender in boxing (for a time)

-Anthony Mundine (Rubgy); became a world champion boxer and arguably Australia's #2 best boxer ever

-Troy Dorsey (Karate/Kickboxing/TaeKwando); became the featherweight boxing champion of the world while simultaneously holding a world karate championship

-Randall 'Tex' Cobb (Kickboxing); went 16-0 before losing to Ken Norton, and would later face Larry Holmes for the world title, and subsequently went on to star in Hollywood movies

Now, for the list of basketball players who were in boxing:

-James 'Buster' Douglas, highschool/collegiate basketball player, who fought Tony Tucker for the IBF belt, and of course defeated Mike Tyson in the greatest sports upset in history

-Nicolai Valuev, collegiate/professional basketball player, who fought John Ruiz for the WBA title, lost it to Ruslan Chagaev, and then regained the title and defended it against Jameel McCline, Evander Holyfield and lost it to David Haye

-Aaron Pryor Junior, highschool/collegiate basketball player, so far is in the journeyman status but for a while was being touted as a prospect

-Freddie Steele, collegiate basketball (and other sports), became one of the best boxers of the early 20th century

-Young Stribling, highschool basketball (at his time considered one of the best in the country), of course was one of the best boxers of his time

-Vonda Ward, collegiate basketball, became women's world heavyweight boxing champion

-Ronald Hearns, collegiate basketball, journeyman status but for a time was considered a high profile prospect

-Jennifer Childers, collegiate basketball, undefeated upon retirement she was one of the pioneers of revitalising women's boxing in the 1990's

-Tye Fields, collegiate basketball, became a long standing fringe contender in boxing

-Ron Lyle, basketball/baseball, fought for the world heavyweight title and was co-award winner with George Foreman for fight of the year

-Eddie Spence, collegiate basketball, became Light Heavyweight Champion of New England (back when such titles were worth something in the early 20th century)

-Eddie Machen, highschool basketball, one of the greatest contenders of all time and most notably remembered for having been ducked by Floyd Patterson


The list really goes on and on of people whose athletics originated in basketball who later went into boxing. While there may be some truth in an argument that could be made that I didnt give enough examples of athletes from other sports doing good--- or that I cherry picked the best known basketball players to go into boxing, etc. the fact remains that it seems my statements that basketball is a team sport that makes for a better transition into boxing than any other.

Don't forget that both Greg Page and Tyrell Biggs played high school basketball, with Biggs being the teammate of heavily recruited Gene Banks at West Philadelphia High School in their heyday.

I'm sure lots of decent boxers dabbled in other sports at school. That's err normally what happens. What doesn't happen is anyone training for a couple of months and being ready to be a credible world title challenger.

I am not going to quote Homocide's entire post; it's way too long. Just want to refute his points that Chamberlain's experience in basketball and track. He was active in track in grade school and throughout High School. He did not just start a week before his first meet in college which Homocide keeps implying.

As for basketball, yes he was great in High School and College. However, he was not the best basketball player in the world when he was a High School freshman or even a college freshman. He developed his basketball skills over a period of 8 + years before joining the NBA.

Had he never picked up a basketball until his late 20s, he certainly would not have been the best basketball player in the world in 6 months. Yet, that is the claim that he would do in boxing.

If (and it's a big if) he would have been great in boxing it would have taken a few years; not 6 months. He would not have been able to compete with a journeyman in that short of a period of time. There is way too much to learn and to become good at.

Ambling Alp II wrote:I am not going to quote Homocide's entire post; it's way too long. Just want to refute his points that Chamberlain's experience in basketball and track. He was active in track in grade school and throughout High School. He did not just start a week before his first meet in college which Homocide keeps implying.

As for basketball, yes he was great in High School and College. However, he was not the best basketball player in the world when he was a High School freshman or even a college freshman. He developed his basketball skills over a period of 8 + years before joining the NBA.

Had he never picked up a basketball until his late 20s, he certainly would not have been the best basketball player in the world in 6 months. Yet, that is the claim that he would do in boxing.

If (and it's a big if) he would have been great in boxing it would have taken a few years; not 6 months. He would not have been able to compete with a journeyman in that short of a period of time. There is way too much to learn and to become good at.

First and foremost before posting further, can you not call me by my correct forum name, or in the least by my real name, rather than be derogatory and make implications that are unfounded and untrue because you happen to disagree with a post?

Anyways. Here's some stats and figures that are true (for both of our sakes):

Wilton Norman Chamberlain's High School Stats:

(Track & Field)- He wouldn't join basketball until late in his Highschool years

High Jump- 6'6"
440- 49 seconds
880- 1:58:03
Shot Put- 53' & 4"
Broad Jump- 22'

(Basketball)- 1953 season (Avg. 31 points per game)

1956 (Final Season in High School; just three years as a player)

-Scored 74, 78, and 90 points in three consecutive games
-Avg. 37.4 points a game overall in the season

Collegiate Stats in Basketball & Track & Field Competitions:

-In his debut game, he scored 52 points & 31 rebounds

-That same year, in track & field, he did a 100 yard dash of 10.9 seconds, shot put of 56' feet, triple jump of over 50', and would (over his college career) win the High Jump three years in a row in Big Eight competitions--- his track & field abilities also qualified him for the Olympics, but he never went

-Chamberlain only played two seasons with Kansas University, leaving the college to turn pro; during those two seasons in Kansas he averaged 29.9 points per game, 18.3 rebounds per game, while totalling 1,433 points and 877 rebounds

-By time he was 21 (before turning pro) Chamberlain was already featured in TIME, LOOK, and NEWSWEEK magazines; and in truth, even when he was in high school at age 17 the famed Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach wanted Chamberlain to play in the NBA--- having Wilt play a game of 1-on-1 with a Kansas University player B.H. Born, in which Chamberlain won the game 25-10; to which Born (who was the 1953 NCAA MVP of The Year) decided not to go into the pros because: "If there were kids that good in high school, I figured I wasn't going to make it into the pros", which proves the point that I made before in posts that Chamberlain, in basketball at least, was initially good from the start.

Wilt Chamberlain's Semi-Pro Career w/ The Harlem Globetrotters:

-Was paid $50,000 for the 1958 season (c. $405,000 in today's money)*
-Most notably was in the famed USSR tour of Russia with the Globetrotters

*Which is incredible considering Chamberlain at that time had said in LOOK magazine he was looking for $10,000 (NBA players at the time averaged $9,000 a season).


Conclusion:

We were both right and both wrong. You were right in the sense that Chamberlain was interested in track long before basketball--- however I think it is safe to assume that once basketball became apart of his life, that track & field took a back seat and he was a part time athlete in that field. You were wrong in the sense that it took years and years for Chamberlain to became an excellent basketball player--- as the records show he went into it at age 17 and was outstanding from the start, having NBA coaches watch him and wanted to sign him when he had only played less than a whole season. You were also wrong in the assumption that Chamberlain wasn't considered "the best" anything while in highschool or college--- before the man was 21 he was already featured in newspapers, magazines, and upon entering college negotiations some colleges were even offering him the chance to star in movies, etc. He was a hot property in basketball from the get-go. It wasn't because he was so big either, but because nobody could beat him on the court. And he did this pretty much from the beginning, without much time or experience.

Only in later life, as a professional athlete, did we see him make transitions into other fields of sports with the weight lifting and volleyball--- but its clear he could make the jump from different sports and adjust and excell in them in a rather quick amount of time. So, we were both right and wrong. Again, I'm not saying that all this really means much of anything--- but the facts/figures do show that Wilt, of probably any athlete in history, possibly had the best tools, physical and mental, to make the adjustments to go into boxing (or any other sport for that matter) and of succeeded.

HomicideHenry wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:I am not going to quote Homocide's entire post; it's way too long. Just want to refute his points that Chamberlain's experience in basketball and track. He was active in track in grade school and throughout High School. He did not just start a week before his first meet in college which Homocide keeps implying.

As for basketball, yes he was great in High School and College. However, he was not the best basketball player in the world when he was a High School freshman or even a college freshman. He developed his basketball skills over a period of 8 + years before joining the NBA.

Had he never picked up a basketball until his late 20s, he certainly would not have been the best basketball player in the world in 6 months. Yet, that is the claim that he would do in boxing.

If (and it's a big if) he would have been great in boxing it would have taken a few years; not 6 months. He would not have been able to compete with a journeyman in that short of a period of time. There is way too much to learn and to become good at.

First and foremost before posting further, can you not call me by my correct forum name, or in the least by my real name, rather than be derogatory and make implications that are unfounded and untrue because you happen to disagree with a post?

Anyways. Here's some stats and figures that are true (for both of our sakes):

Wilton Norman Chamberlain's High School Stats:

(Track & Field)- He wouldn't join basketball until late in his Highschool years

High Jump- 6'6"
440- 49 seconds
880- 1:58:03
Shot Put- 53' & 4"
Broad Jump- 22'

(Basketball)- 1953 season (Avg. 31 points per game)

1956 (Final Season in High School; just three years as a player)

-Scored 74, 78, and 90 points in three consecutive games
-Avg. 37.4 points a game overall in the season

Collegiate Stats in Basketball & Track & Field Competitions:

-In his debut game, he scored 52 points & 31 rebounds

-That same year, in track & field, he did a 100 yard dash of 10.9 seconds, shot put of 56' feet, triple jump of over 50', and would (over his college career) win the High Jump three years in a row in Big Eight competitions--- his track & field abilities also qualified him for the Olympics, but he never went

-Chamberlain only played two seasons with Kansas University, leaving the college to turn pro; during those two seasons in Kansas he averaged 29.9 points per game, 18.3 rebounds per game, while totalling 1,433 points and 877 rebounds

-By time he was 21 (before turning pro) Chamberlain was already featured in TIME, LOOK, and NEWSWEEK magazines; and in truth, even when he was in high school at age 17 the famed Boston Celtics coach Red Auerbach wanted Chamberlain to play in the NBA--- having Wilt play a game of 1-on-1 with a Kansas University player B.H. Born, in which Chamberlain won the game 25-10; to which Born (who was the 1953 NCAA MVP of The Year) decided not to go into the pros because: "If there were kids that good in high school, I figured I wasn't going to make it into the pros", which proves the point that I made before in posts that Chamberlain, in basketball at least, was initially good from the start.

Wilt Chamberlain's Semi-Pro Career w/ The Harlem Globetrotters:

-Was paid $50,000 for the 1958 season (c. $405,000 in today's money)*
-Most notably was in the famed USSR tour of Russia with the Globetrotters

*Which is incredible considering Chamberlain at that time had said in LOOK magazine he was looking for $10,000 (NBA players at the time averaged $9,000 a season).


Conclusion:

We were both right and both wrong. You were right in the sense that Chamberlain was interested in track long before basketball--- however I think it is safe to assume that once basketball became apart of his life, that track & field took a back seat and he was a part time athlete in that field. You were wrong in the sense that it took years and years for Chamberlain to became an excellent basketball player--- as the records show he went into it at age 17 and was outstanding from the start, having NBA coaches watch him and wanted to sign him when he had only played less than a whole season. You were also wrong in the assumption that Chamberlain wasn't considered "the best" anything while in highschool or college--- before the man was 21 he was already featured in newspapers, magazines, and upon entering college negotiations some colleges were even offering him the chance to star in movies, etc. He was a hot property in basketball from the get-go. It wasn't because he was so big either, but because nobody could beat him on the court. And he did this pretty much from the beginning, without much time or experience.

Only in later life, as a professional athlete, did we see him make transitions into other fields of sports with the weight lifting and volleyball--- but its clear he could make the jump from different sports and adjust and excell in them in a rather quick amount of time. So, we were both right and wrong. Again, I'm not saying that all this really means much of anything--- but the facts/figures do show that Wilt, of probably any athlete in history, possibly had the best tools, physical and mental, to make the adjustments to go into boxing (or any other sport for that matter) and of succeeded.

From his High School athletics stats he only sounds like a very good rather than brilliant track athlete. Next you'll be telling us he could have been the best rower of all time if only he'd rowed one weekend.

polecateddy wrote:
From his High School athletics stats he only sounds like a very good rather than brilliant track athlete. Next you'll be telling us he could have been the best rower of all time if only he'd rowed one weekend.

Sarcasm doesn't suit you. But the fact remains, everyone's argument against my thoughts were that it took years and years for Chamberlain to adapt into being a great basketball player, etc. Which I proved that it wasn't the case--- because he started basketball at age 17 in 1953 and immediately was being watched by NBA coaches--- and even before college (and during college) was being featured in magazines, etc. as the next big thing in basketball. Factor in that he pretty much put aside track & field because of basketball, he was a part time athlete in that sport in college and still dominated (even though he originally was a track & field athlete in highschool). Then you got to figure, well passed his best years in the pros he dominated volleyball (as a part time player) and of course, his feats of strength were legendary. He could adapt/adjust to different sports rather easily.

Tony Halme is not a wrestler.

He performed in WWF and other entertainment rackets.

He attempted MMA as well and failed at that.