BoxRec

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:No, neither was Tyson. They were both big punchers. Not sure which one hit harder.

OK, I guess that's enough for this thread.

The Great John L wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Holmes was much better against Mercer & Holyfield than he was against Tyson. I'm not shitting on Mike, it's just clear he never beat a heavyweight of Bowe's caliber where as Riddick arguably beat one much better than Mike 3 times.

I guess you're saying Holyfield here and you believe that Bowe should have gotten the nod in their second fight?

And you're right Tyson did not beat anyone as good as Holyfield, but he did something better. He beat everybody in the division of any consequence and didn't avoid anybody. It's a lot harder to win 10 fights in a row against a group of very good HWs than it is to take 2 of 3 against one great HW because it shows the ability to beat a variety of different styles. If you don't understand that then you're not only missing a major aspect of boxing, and just about any other sport as well.

Outside of Holyfield, Bowe's resume almost makes Wlads look top notch. Hell using your logic you could justify that Mike Spinks would beat a prime Tyson because he beat Holmes twice and Holmes was better than anyone Tyson ever beat. Might as well throw Willie Meehan in the argument as well.

As I said I've got Bowe in my top 20 AT HWs, but his defense was so pedestrian it's hard to picture him beating any big punchers without a glass jaw.

He took two of three from a guy Tyson could never beat. I scored the second fight narrowly for Evander, but it was very tight.

As for my logic, I just responded to you asking about what big punchers Riddick fought.It's worth noting that Mike never beat a fighter that good. I pick Bowe because of the style match up, not their resumes. I'd rank Tyson ahead of him on an all time list for the longevity. At their peaks, Bowe was the superior fighter.

dempseyfire wrote:Prime for prime Tyson by KO. If it's the 1991 Tyson vs Bowe, about a 50/50 fight. Bowe's tool-chest would give Mike tons of problems but Bowe's defense was simply too wide open . .I can see Tyson stopping Bowe around the late-middle rounds while down on the scorecards.

When did Tyson ever come back to stop someone when behind on the score cards?

Botha, I lost money on that one.

Botha doesn't really compare to Bowe though. For me, if Tyson is behind on points in the late rounds, he's losing. In fact, if the fight is still going after about 7, he's losing.

SamWise72 wrote:Botha doesn't really compare to Bowe though. For me, if Tyson is behind on points in the late rounds, he's losing. In fact, if the fight is still going after about 7, he's losing.

I agree with you, I was just answering the question. If this fight goes into the late rounds, Tyson's face would be massacred.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

SamWise72 wrote:Botha doesn't really compare to Bowe though. For me, if Tyson is behind on points in the late rounds, he's losing. In fact, if the fight is still going after about 7, he's losing.

I agree with you, I was just answering the question. If this fight goes into the late rounds, Tyson's face would be massacred.

I must admit, I'd forgotten there was even that example. That fight aside, Tyson was exclusively an on top fighter.

SamWise72 wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

SamWise72 wrote:Botha doesn't really compare to Bowe though. For me, if Tyson is behind on points in the late rounds, he's losing. In fact, if the fight is still going after about 7, he's losing.

I agree with you, I was just answering the question. If this fight goes into the late rounds, Tyson's face would be massacred.

I must admit, I'd forgotten there was even that example. That fight aside, Tyson was exclusively an on top fighter.

I'll never forget that one, I was watching it with 20 or so friends and I genuinely thought Botha could win so I was talking mad shit all through the under card. When he started clowning him like Ali with his hands down I was going nuts. He got too cocky though.

Bowe was a very large and durable man of the sort that typically either took Tyson the distance or gave him a lot of problems. Ad to that his power and inside fighting ability and frankly I don't see Tyson as being able to overcome him. Its possible that he might have forced a stoppage on Riddick but we're talking about a guy who was never stopped in his career and only beaten once by an all time great whom he defeated twice.. Riddick had heart. And isn't likely to be as intimidated as many of Mike's opponents. Just an all around package of everything.

Bowe by late KO.

Bowe was 6'5" with a good jab, decent chin, and very good in-fighting. If other similarly built guys, but with less skill like Tucker and Bonecrusher could extend a "prime Tyson" to the distance, the Bowe could have well...and beaten him.

Apart from his wins over Holyfield who else did Bowe beat? Golota was knocking him all around the ring and winning until he got himself disqualified twice. Plus Bowe ducked Lewis. Bowe either beat has beens, 2nd tier heavies or blown up cruiserweights. He looked so good often because his opposition allowed him to look good. Tyson would've been a different kettle of fish to fighting the likes of Hide, Ferguson, Dokes, Gonzalez etc...etc...

Controversial wrote:Apart from his wins over Holyfield who else did Bowe beat? Golota was knocking him all around the ring and winning until he got himself disqualified twice. Plus Bowe ducked Lewis. Bowe either beat has beens, 2nd tier heavies or blown up cruiserweights. He looked so good often because his opposition allowed him to look good. Tyson would've been a different kettle of fish to fighting the likes of Hide, Ferguson, Dokes, Gonzalez etc...etc...

Apart from Holyfield? That alone shows he was capable of fighting at a level Tyson never reached.

"Controversial"]Apart from his wins over Holyfield who else did Bowe beat?

Can you name one fighter Tyson beat who was better than Holyfield?

Golota was knocking him all around the ring and winning until he got himself disqualified twice.

After Eddie Futch had left Bowe's camp and training pretty much went out the window, he was a much more beatable fighter. Let's also not forget about Golata's repeated low blows which took their toll as well.. Also, what did Golata and Tyson have in common Stylistically?

Plus Bowe ducked Lewis.

Irrelevant when surmising how he'd do against another fighter.

Bowe either beat has beens, 2nd tier heavies or blown up cruiserweights.

Has beens, 2nd tier men and blown up non-heavies... hmmmmm.. Sounds familiar.

He looked so good often because his opposition allowed him to look good. Tyson would've been a different kettle of fish to fighting the likes of Hide, Ferguson, Dokes, Gonzalez etc...etc...

You're being about as selective as one could get. Evander Holyfield was by far and above better than anyone Tyson ever beat. Hide, Gonzalez, Donald, and Golata were all undefeated contenders in their primes. Sure their records were a bit padded, but then again what were Tony Tucker and Tyrell Biggs? Bowe never lost to anyone like James Douglas and while he doesn't have as many wins over ranked opposition as Tyson, his upper tier victories probably trump Mike's.

drunkenpiper36 wrote:

"Controversial"]Apart from his wins over Holyfield who else did Bowe beat?

Can you name one fighter Tyson beat who was better than Holyfield?

Golota was knocking him all around the ring and winning until he got himself disqualified twice.

After Eddie Futch had left Bowe's camp and training pretty much went out the window, he was a much more beatable fighter. Let's also not forget about Golata's repeated low blows which took their toll as well.. Also, what did Golata and Tyson have in common Stylistically?

Plus Bowe ducked Lewis.

Irrelevant when surmising how he'd do against another fighter.

Bowe either beat has beens, 2nd tier heavies or blown up cruiserweights.

Has beens, 2nd tier men and blown up non-heavies... hmmmmm.. Sounds familiar.

He looked so good often because his opposition allowed him to look good. Tyson would've been a different kettle of fish to fighting the likes of Hide, Ferguson, Dokes, Gonzalez etc...etc...

You're being about as selective as one could get. Evander Holyfield was by far and above better than anyone Tyson ever beat. Hide, Gonzalez, Donald, and Golata were all undefeated contenders in their primes. Sure their records were a bit padded, but then again what were Tony Tucker and Tyrell Biggs? Bowe never lost to anyone like James Douglas and while he doesn't have as many wins over ranked opposition as Tyson, his upper tier victories probably trump Mike's.

Bowe couldn't have handled Tyson's speed and punches, he got hit too much. Similarly Bowe never fought anyone like Tyson. Bowe struggled to beat Tubbs and Biggs had him doing a silly walk at one point from what I remember. These were fighters that Tyson swept aside with ease. Herbie Hide had Bowe hurt too, could you honestly see Hide going 6 rounds with Tyson? Bowe's win over Holyfield was a fantastic result and great fight I give him that, but one good win doesn't make a career.

People quickly forget how good Tyson was because they see him lose to Douglas and Holyfield. Tyson fought Holyfield 6 years too late, he wasn't the same fighter anymore when they fought and I don't doubt Tyson would've won if they fought in 1990 as originally planned, assuming Tyson took it seriously and trained. Tyson's peaked very young and over a short period of time. Tyson was on the slide with drink, drugs and women even in 1990 which was why he lost to Douglas, anyone who argues that Tyson was in shape and prepared for that fight is talking nonsense. A prepared Tyson would've stopped Douglas in the first few rounds.

Bowe had very poor title reign. Two defences over Dokes and Ferguson if you exclude the later WBO fights. Holyfield was thought to be shot in their third fight. Holyfield had lost to Moorer previously and retired after that loss. He made a comeback and after the third Bowe fight was diagnosed as having Hepatitis A and the fans thought his career was finished again. Then all sorts of stories came out Holyfield's alleged use of 'supplements' etc... which is another story.

Bowe was a good fighter but I can't see him beating a fit and focused Tyson.

Mike will always have the greatest apologists in sports. Nobody can ever take that away from him.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:Mike will always have the greatest apologists in sports. Nobody can ever take that away from him.

Yeah I'm not even gonna bother.

Pretty much every fighter goes through a period of decline, for many reasons. Too old, too many fights, lack of desire, injuries, lack of motivation, drink, drugs, media spotlight, whatever. Tyson hit his peak young. His issues are well documented so it's not a big secret about his past and the man he was. That isn't making excuses for him that's just telling it how it was. He admits he didn't train for most of his fights once he won the title, too busy partying, shagging, drinking and snorting coke. If people think his lifestyle had no affect on his career then there's isn't much more to say.

Apparently according to someone above Bowe's trainer left him and that's why he was getting the crap knocked out of him by Golota but when someone says Tyson had numerous personal issues, including changing trainers several times, all of a sudden that's making excuses.

Controversial wrote: That isn't making excuses for him

Sure it is.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Controversial wrote: That isn't making excuses for him

Sure it is.

So you think Tyson was as good in 1996-2005 as he was in 1985-1990 ?

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Whats funny about that, can you not answer it?

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Whats funny about that, can you not answer it?

It's a stupid question that doesn't even approach anything near the conversation. There is no point in the same tired argument every time his name comes up. You think a prepared Tyson stops Douglas in 2 or 3 rounds and I think any version of him gets his ass whipped that night. Like I said, you Tyson apologists are the best. Nobody does it better, I'm not going to waste my time.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Controversial wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Whats funny about that, can you not answer it?

It's a stupid question that doesn't even approach anything near the conversation.

You were the one who bought up the "Tyson apologists" response??

I asked you a perfectly reasonable question and I get no response other than "lol" and then "I'm not discussing it" To me that means you cannot give a sensible argument, obviously because you hate Tyson and cannot be objective.

Using your thought process I can say "Berbick beat Ali because he was always the better fighter". Someone might say "hang on, Ali was 38 and had the onset of an a major illness", to which my response would be "you Ali apologists, always making excuses". Tyson is a similar argument, a fighter so wrapped up in events outside the ring it affected his career in the same way old age or too many fights affect others. That's just a fact.

If you read Tyson's book he is quite honest in that he feigned injury to avoid Ruddock but Don King needed him to fight so signed Douglas as an easy touch. Tyson admits he hardly trained, was heavily overweight, was coked out of his head and shagging multiple women and Don King was so worried he had to bribe him with $50,000 (i think) to get him to make weight. Thats why he went on a crash diet drinking only soup before the fight. No one gave Douglas a chance and Tyson completely dismissed him. He lost because he was simply unprepared and its quite clear watching Tyson he wasn't the same fighter that fought Spinks or Holmes.