BoxRec

raylawpc wrote:

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

You cannot libel or slander a dead person.

Ali is still alive. How many times has Douche made up absolutely slanderous quotes he attributes to him?

raylawpc wrote:

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

You cannot libel or slander a dead person.

So the family couldnt file a suit then? Muhammed Ali though who is a big part of Duce's post's is still alive *barely*.

columbo wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

You cannot libel or slander a dead person.

So the family couldnt file a suit then? Muhammed Ali though who is a big part of Duce's post's is still alive *barely*.

Well, they could file a suit but it would be pretty quickly dismissed. Muhammad Ali is a public figure. As a result of NY Times v. Sullivan, it is very difficult for a public figure to prevail on a libel action.

raylawpc wrote:

columbo wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

So the family couldnt file a suit then? Muhammed Ali though who is a big part of Duce's post's is still alive *barely*.

Well, they could file a suit but it would be pretty quickly dismissed. Muhammad Ali is a public figure. As a result of NY Times v. Sullivan, it is very difficult for a public figure to prevail on a libel action.

Are you a lawyer? You seem like you know your stuff. I'm not gonna pretend that I know anywhere near enough about it to have a truely informed opinion.

Im not sure about that. You are discussing US law and unless Im mistaken this site is owned and operated via the UK which has much more stringent slander and libel laws (one of the reasons why allegedly is constantly able to shut down any talk of himself on these sights).

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

Slander? In a forum of public opinion? That's just silly. This guy improperly quoted me on a Boxing forum? Good luck with those legal fees.

klompton wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

Bobbyptsd wrote:Well, I'm speaking more to his posting history in general.

To be fair, I'm not even in BOTP all that much, if the people here like his sort of thing, I suppose that's their business.

It's not about liking, it's about what's right. These are internet posts, it's not a fact finding mission.

I guess I hold/held the forum to a higher standard. After all this is BoxRec which was designed to weed out the bullshit and post factual records etc. Its a little strange though that forums with less of a reputation than BoxRec have banned El Douche numerous times in his various forms yet the admins here continue to put up with his obvious spamming and trolling. This slavish devotion to the so-called rules has pretty much driven this forum away from a format of serious debate and discussion to place where you have three options: 1. check on the inane mythical matchups, 2. try to educate people on the bullshit that El Douche makes up. 3. Debate the merits of the previous two options with the only two people on the forum that seem to have twisted interest in defending them. You and Box can be those two, and defend his right to post all you want by claiming its not journalism etc but the vast majority of boxing fans, particularly history fans, get their news in this era from the internet and by and large a lot of that comes from forums. Print media has been going the way of the dodo for a decade now and therefore when forums such as this begin to fill that gap its extremely important to have a very low tolerance for people like El Douche who are literally make it up as they go along to suit their agenda. Its not like hes simply twisting facts, hes literally making up quotes, inventing events, lying about statistics, ages of people, even their effing names. Its ridiculous and frankly I think its making this forum a laughing stock. Ive seen a lot of bad posters in my day but I cant recall ever seeing a poster have so many people lobbying for his dismissal. That fact alone should be a wakeup call to the admin and give a clue to how detrimental he is. This is above and beyond the fact that he is in violation of the rules on an hourly basis:

2. No hyperlinks without a summary. Please post an abstract of your article and allow people to decide if it's worth clicking on your link.

(You can pretend he posts abstracts but nine times out of ten if you actually take the time to read his links they have nothing to do with what hes posted)

3. NO TROLLING

10. USE THE SEARCH FEATURE BEFORE STARTING A NEW THREAD. CHECK TO SEE IF THERE IS A PREVIOUS THREAD ON YOUR TOPIC. REDUNDANT THREADS WILL BE DELETED.

I dont know. Since the mod apparently has a soft spot on this maybe John needs to be brought in. Its his forum and Id be amazed if someone who seems like an extremely logical and even minded straight shooter would be happy about this garbage.

You've called me a troll too, that's your opinion and it's fine for you to have it. In a court of law, that opinion would be desecrated with my posting history.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

Slander? In a forum of public opinion? That's just silly. This guy improperly quoted me on a Boxing forum? Good luck with those legal fees.

Well you cant actually type a certain UK promoters name on here because he took legal action against the site. Cost the site a shit load in legal fee's by all accounts.

Bobbyptsd wrote:Yeah that's basically my point Lefty. I couldn't make 6 posts on the CS saying I don't like, let's say Mikey Garcia in this example, without getting blasted pretty roundly, and probably getting warned for repetitive threads, if not a temporary ban.

Sure you could, there are several threads doing it to Manny and Floyd constantly.

columbo wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

columbo wrote:Bobby does make a good point though, if there's information that Duce is spreading that is outright lies, isnt that going into the realm of Slander? I mean if outright lies were being spouted in terms of Quotes and allegations in the CS, about Floyd for example *I mean outright slanderous accusations* i'm sure those posts would be deleted and the posted warned or something. Is it because a lot of these fighters are either dead or very old and thus not relevant anymore that there's more leeway being shown?

Slander? In a forum of public opinion? That's just silly. This guy improperly quoted me on a Boxing forum? Good luck with those legal fees.

Well you cant actually type a certain UK promoters name on here because he took legal action against the site. Cost the site a poo load in legal fee's by all accounts.

That's a Boxrec issue and I highly doubt it's legal fees as opposed to an agreement between parties. Anyway, if he got banned I wouldn't lose a seconds sleep but it would be a joke.

This was a post by the Law the other day though in relation to another thread in the B&I

The Law
Post subject: Re: Terry Marsh...has he been forgoten ,wiped from historyPostPosted: 24 Jan 2014, 18:28
Offline
Mod
Mod

Joined: 19 Feb 2005
Posts: 1565
Guys please be very careful with any accusations in this thread. Any potentially defamatory comments will be deleted and warnings will be issued. Thanks

I got warned once for stating that Terry Trekas is a criminal specializing in fraud. Then I produced evidence and The Law was satisfied. Face it, this is a forum with little activity and placing a quote in front of your opinions isn't nearly as big of a deal as some of you guys are making it out to be. If you want to go legal, an easy defense would be my client isn't the brightest bulb and misunderstood the grammatical nature of the symbol. That's air tight.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:I got warned once for stating that Terry Trekas is a criminal specializing in fraud. Then I produced evidence and The Law was satisfied. Face it, this is a forum with little activity and placing a quote in front of your opinions isn't nearly as big of a deal as some of you guys are making it out to be. If you want to go legal, an easy defense would be my client isn't the brightest bulb and misunderstood the grammatical nature of the symbol. That's air tight.

You should be a lawyer you sly mahfucka you

For someone who wouldnt lose a seconds sleep over him being banned you are the only person who immediately jumps to his defense whenever anyone criticizes him.

klompton wrote:For someone who wouldnt lose a seconds sleep over him being banned you are the only person who immediately jumps to his defense whenever anyone criticizes him.

Yeah, I'm sure there is no criticism's ventured his way in the many thread he's started that I've never opened.

You're a whiny little child that thinks you're entitled to Gospel like reverence.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

klompton wrote:For someone who wouldnt lose a seconds sleep over him being banned you are the only person who immediately jumps to his defense whenever anyone criticizes him.

Yeah, I'm sure there is no criticism's ventured his way in the many thread he's started that I've never opened.

You're a whiny little child that thinks you're entitled to Gospel like reverence.

And youre a dipshit troll. nuff said

klompton wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

klompton wrote:For someone who wouldnt lose a seconds sleep over him being banned you are the only person who immediately jumps to his defense whenever anyone criticizes him.

Yeah, I'm sure there is no criticism's ventured his way in the many thread he's started that I've never opened.

You're a whiny little child that thinks you're entitled to Gospel like reverence.

And youre a dipshit troll. nuff said

From 1908 to 1927, boxing shows were staged at a very small incorporated city of Vernon, which has been glorified industrial park located only a few miles south of Downtown Los Angeles. Vernon attracted a large number of manufacturing and other businesses due to its low taxes and relatively lax regulations. During its entire history as an incorporated town, Vernon was controlled by a few people with an iron hand, resulting in a huge financial bonanza for them. There are about 1,800 businesses in the tiny city of Vernon, which has a population of only about ninety people.

In order to maintain control and to keep the governmental costs down in Vernon, the population was kept very low and all of the residential properties were owned by the city. There also are very strict rules about people residing on business properties within the city. This meant that everyone living in the city were literally subject to eviction at the whim of the bigwigs. In other words, the bigwigs could pick and choose all of the voters or residents in Vernon. As a result, the city elections, if held at all, have been essentially shams.

While Tom McCarey, the first great boxing promoter in Los Angeles, was staging his shows at Hazard's Pavilion from 1901 to 1910 and at Naud Junction Pavilion from 1905 to 1911, there was a big effort to limit or even completely eliminate professional boxing in the city of Los Angeles. After being forced to leave Hazard's Pavilion, McCarey was severely limited when it came to staging boxing shows elsewhere in Los Angeles because such a site could not be located near residential areas. This resulted in the building of his boxing pavilion at Naud Junction, which was located at the junction of Main and Alameda Streets.

About a couple of years after McCarey started staging boxing cards at Naud Junction Pavilion, the city of Los Angeles began to mandate that professional bouts could be scheduled for a maximum of ten rounds and with no official decisions allowed. As a result, world championship bouts were essentially not allowed with the city. This action led to the Jeffries Athletic Club starting to stage boxing cards featuring long-distance bouts with official decisions in Vernon during 1908.

Overall, the Jeffries A.C. boxing shows drew relatively small crowds with a notable exception of the boxing promotion which featured the world middleweight championship bout in which Billy Papke stopped the reigning champion, Stanley Ketchell, in the 12th round. The club staged its last card during 1909.

Starting in 1910, Tom McCarey was staging cards in both Vernon and the Naud Junction Pavilion. After greater restrictions which essentially made professional boxing illegal in the city of Los Angeles, McCarey staged cards in Vernon exclusively from 1911 to the latter part of 1914.

During the November 1914 election, a majority of California voters cast their ballots in favor of a proposition which limited bouts to a maximum of four rounds and the value of awards to boxers in the state of California. It was thought that this proposition essentially outlawed professional boxing in California, but many professional boxers continued to box and get paid for it in the state over the next ten years during what was called the "Four-Round Era."

Except for recognized amateur bouts, boxing remained restricted in the city of Los Angeles starting late 1914. Meanwhile, Jack Doyle was operating a highly successful drinking establishment in Vernon, a city which had comparatively lax liquor laws. As a result, Vernon became known as a place where one could buy a drink in the Los Angeles area.

During the middle 1910s, Doyle started promoting boxing shows with exclusively four-round bouts. It was said that he did it to provide entertainment for the people who patronized his drinking establishment. It appears that Wad Wadhams came aboard as Doyle's matchmaker during 1916, a position that Wadhams would hold when Doyle promoted boxing cards in Vernon until 1927 and at the Olympic Auditorium from 1927 to 1933.

At a fairly small indoor venue called the Vernon Arena located on the southwest corner of Santa Fe Avenue and 38th Street in Vernon , Doyle was staging weekly boxing cards on Tuesdays on regular basis from 1916 to late 1923. It appears that this version of the Vernon Arena had a capacity of 2,000. For a short time during late 1919 and early 1920, Doyle also was staging boxing cards on Fridays in addition to continuing staging cards on Tuesdays. Afterwards, Doyle switched back to staging cards on Tuesday exclusively.

Boxing shows started to be staged by Jack Doyle, the promoter and owner, at the last version of the Vernon Arena, a new indoor facility, during the latter part of 1923. The new facility had a capacity of about 7,000, which reportedly was increased to 8,500 by early 1925. Boxing cards would be staged in the new Vernon Arena at a regular basis on Tuesdays until the beginning of 1926.

According to newspaper articles, Doyle put in a great effort to persuade California voters to cast their ballots in favor of a proposition legalizing professional boxing under the control of a state athletic commission during the November 1924 election. The proposition, which would be known as the Ten-Round Law, passed by a small margin.

During 1925, it appears that Doyle had quite a bit of success staging boxing cards at the Vernon Arena until the new boxing arena called the Olympic Auditorium had its first boxing show on August 5, 1925. The Olympic Auditorium had a capacity of 10,400 and reportedly cost $700,000. to $1,000,000. to build on the southwest corner of 18th Street and Grand Avenue. In addition to being a more plush facility than the new version of the Vernon Arena, the Olympic Auditorium was located closer to the downtown part of Los Angeles. With the legalizing of professional boxing in California and the presence of the Olympic Auditorium, the days of boxing in Vernon were numbered.

During the rest of 1925, it became obvious that the attendance was low at a number of boxing shows staged each week at the Vernon Arena on Tuesdays and the Olympic Auditorium on Wednesdays. Starting at the beginning of 1926, the Vernon Arena and the Olympic Auditorium were staging boxing shows on alternating weeks due to an edict from the California State Athletic Commission.

- Chuck Johnston

Another excellent post, hopefully it will meet the approval of the fool that doesn't care if anyone buys his book.

El Douche's accounts of this fight differ so wildly from the actual ringside accounts that its comical. In reality the fight was considered a dismal sloppy affair. Flowers was given no more than a 2 round swing in his favor by most ringsiders. Several thought Greb won outright, and others felt Flowers' margin of victory was too thin to take the championship. Flowers himself seemed unsure of the victory as evidenced by his reaction when Joe Humphries came to ring center to announce the winner. He held his arms aloft in what everyone thought was the sign of a draw. Flowers broke into a big smile and crossed the ring to congratulate Greb on defending his title. Humphries caught Flowers by the arm and returned him to his corner before announcing the Flowers had won a split decision. Flowers jumped in the air, clicked his heels, and ran a full circuit around the ring. Most stated that it wasnt so much that Flowers had been good, he had just not been quite as bad as Greb. Most predicted that his reign would be short.

In pretending that Greb ran from Flowers for years (something that isnt supported by any fact) Douche neglects to mention (because he doesnt know) that Greb had a 90 day return guarantee. Flowers immediately tried to break this contract. They stalled and stalled and refused to honor the agreement until the NYSAC commission stepped in and forced them to honor the contract. Then Flowers again tried to break the contract claiming he couldnt fight because of injuries acquired against both Eddie Huffman and Allentown Joe Gans. The commission gave him time to heal but demanded that he honor the agreement after the alloted time. Once again Flowers tried to break the contract demanding that the fight be held in an outdoor ballpark. This meant the fight would be postponed until the following year as all of the ballparks in NY were booked through the fall. Finally the commission forced Flowers to honor the agreement but not without Walk Miller constantly harrassing them in order to get his fighter favorable treatment.

Another point is the age of Flowers. Douche keeps pretending that Flowers was born in February 1892. This is an obvious attempt to say "Flowers is older than Greb and so Greb's age cannot be used as a reason for his performance." Nothing could be further from the truth. In reality we dont know when Flowers was born. Such records for African Americans during this time were dismal at best. All official sources and even Flowers and his wife differed on this date. Reliable dates range from February 1893 to 1895. Ive never seen a legitimate source mention 1892 as his DOB. For instance the 1900 census lists his DOB as 1893, the 1920 lists his age as either 23 or 25 (its a little hard to read) making his DOB either 1895 or 1897. The WW1 Draft registration lists his DOB as 1894 as does his wife in the biography she commissioned of him. Flowers himself cited 1895 as his DOB. Flowers himself even gave differing days of his DOB (Agust 5, 1895, February 11, and February 15 1895). Its entirely possible, if not likely, that Flowers himself (like a great many African Americans at the time) didnt know when he was born and basically set upon an approximation. More to the point though he had far less ringwear than Greb and was in his prime when they fought. Greb started fighting by at least early 1913 and by the time he faced Flowers, who started fighting in 1917, he had nearly 200 more bouts and a far deeper resume. Thats a ton of ringwear compared to the relatively fresh Flowers.


Oh and by the way, the post above me by Douche is yet another link without an abstract (it in no way is reflected in Douche's post) but for some reason the rules dont apply to this joker.

Il Duce wrote:March 2, 1926

'FLOWERS AGREE'S TO MEET GREB IN RETURN FIGHT, SET FOR MAY 21st'

-Arrangements Concluded When Former Champion Signs Agreement to Battle Negro Champion-

Matchmaker -Jess McMahon has a signed agreement with Walk Miller, Manager for Negro Middleweight
Champion - Tiger Flowers to meet former Champion - Harry Greb on May 21, 1926 here at Madison
Square Garden.

The article states, that Tiger Flowers will accept any 'outstanding' Middleweight Challenger that the Madison
Square Garden Promoters can provide, including the former Champion - Harry Greb.

The articles states that Tiger Flowers is to meet an opponent within 90-Days of the signed agreement, and
one who is presented as a qualified Challenger for the Middleweight Championship.

...and did they meet on May 21, 1926? No. Why? Because Flowers and Walk Miller ran out on it and continually tried to duck it for most of the spring and summer, even claiming that Greb hadnt done enough to deserve a rematch, LOL. They publicly repudiated both contracts they had willingly signed (the 90 day return and the actual rematch contract) and then signed to defend against Mickey Walker instead. This was not allowed by the commission and Flowers and Miller turned to other alternatives to avoid the match.

"I just could not get started. I thought I was as good as ever but I was not up to snuff. If anyone had told me I would do no better than I did I would not have believed it. But, at that, I thought I deserved at least a draw. I was never hurt. I want to fight him again and I dont care how soon it is either. Let me get him again and I will win back the title." Harry Greb New York Sun Feb. 27, 1926.

Uhhh thats the Pittsburgh Courier, again. How many times are you going to quote one paper, the most biased paper in Pittsburgh toward Flowers (having an agenda pro black fighter) and claim that you are quoting from more than one paper? Do you really think you are going to quote a Pittsburgh paper that I dont already have for this fight?

Il Duce wrote: 'Harry Greb Admits, "I Was Way In Over My Head'

Whats that? Another made up quote? Source please because it sure wasnt in the article you just linked to, which had nothing to do with what you just wrote. And yes, its the same article you keep referring back to.

Il Duce wrote:Harry Greb vs. Tiger Flowers

Round Score

1....... Tiger Flowers
2....... Tiger Flowers
3....... Tiger Flowers
4....... Harry Greb
5....... Tiger Flowers

6....... Harry Greb
7....... Harry Greb
8....... Harry Greb
9....... Tiger Flowers
10..... Harry Greb

11..... Harry Greb
12..... 'Even'
13..... Tiger Flowers
14..... Tiger Flowers
15..... Tiger Flowers

Tiger Flowers..... 8-6-1

According to the person who scored the bout (the first one?) between Tiger Flowers and Harry Greb in such a way, the decision would have been a draw if another round was scored for Greb instead of Flowers. In other words, the person thought the bout was extremely close and hardly an overwhelming victory for Flowers.

- Chuck Johnston