BoxRec

dempseyfire wrote:

Seamus wrote:But Langford, Jeannette, and McVea all became much better fighters AFTER Johnson beat them,.

If you look at their records before and after facing Johnson and read the fight write-ups what you're saying doesn't ring true. I'll accept that McVea and Jeannette got more seasoned and Langford put on some pounds, but they did not increase in ability to the point where one would think Johnson, who DOMINATED all of them, would have much trouble beating them again. Hell, McVea even said after his 3rd fight with Jack he didn't wish to face him again as he got his a$$ kicked so thoroughly.

It's like if Doug Jones had not just beaten, but thoroughly demolished Ali in 63, scoring several knockdowns along the way. Sure it would add to the victory if it was the Ali of 67 or 72, but it still would be considered an amazing/all time great win.

I once had an interview with Earnie Shavers, who if you recall fought Jimmy Young twice. It's funny to me that Earnie will boast "I beat Young", but when you look at the records--- the first time they fought Jimmy only had a handful of bouts, while Shavers had almost 40 of them. The second time around, however, Jimmy came into his own and it was a draw.

Personally, I am in the camp with the mindset that had Johnson rematched McVea, Langford, Jeanette, etc. that the fights would of been harder, tougher, and who knows whether Johnson would of won or not. Had he done so, and won convincingly, I would give him more credit--- but he simply didn't. I'm also of the mindset that diversity equals greater talent/ability--- because of the times, where blacks could only fight other blacks, whites only could fight other whites, etc. you didn't see much growth or development in fighters. Johnson was lucky in the sense that he managed to fight alot of white guys before ever winning the title--- McVea, Jeanette, etc. mainly fought black guys, and/or eachother multiple times. In short, I dont see how facing the same guys over and over again would make someone better. Langford, however, is the exception to this rule--- as he fought from Lightweight to Heavyweight, across all color lines.

Of the boxers listed in the OP:

1. Jim Jeffries
2. Sam Langford
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Joe Jeanette
6. Sam McVey
7. Harry Wills

- Jeffries, Langford, Dempsey, Johnson are all ATGs. Johnson is my lowest ranked fighter among them at #27 all-time PFP. The last 3 are very good and borderline top 100.
- Jeff was just too strong and would've outlasted Johnson who was not as fast or clever as Corbett.
- Langford was just as fast and smart as Johnson, but hit way harder and had more experience vs. top competition.
- Dempsey & Johnson are tough to chose from. I think either could beat the other. I see Dempsey as a slightly lesser version of Langford; not as smart and not quite as much speed. I usu. take Dempsey b/c I see him being able to reach the elusive Johnson and being able to hurt him when he does.