BoxRec

Il Duce wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:Might want to look at my question again....unless you are saying you were formerly unaware of the Westphal fight, went back, got familiar with it, and it changed your entire viewpoint on Sonny.

Think Westphal took a dive in that fight?

The Sonny Liston vs. Albert Westphal bout was.............'a hilarious comedy'.

deleted.

Il Duce wrote:
Jimmy McCarter, beat Sonny Liston in the 1953 National AAU Tournament.

Yea, he was nobody.

McCarter was dismissed for making Liston look bad. He beat Liston in the quarter finals of the AAU tournament. However being a good sparring partner doesn't always mean they are good when fighting for real. Elijah Tillery was a great gym fighter, not so great when it counted though. I read little into these sort of stories.

Take a close look at that shot Liston delivered. Do you doubt the veracity of the punch, and it's effect?

However This guy had never been down. Were there Muslims in the audience? Was the mob showing it's muscle in the front seats? Did Westphal have trouble in training camp?

Most important, what sort of liquor did Westphal prefer? Did Sonny send him a pint of J&B before the fight?

The forensics of the punch, in this case, seem to indicate the sort of action-reaction that one might expect in the wake of it's affect. The goof was coming forward, and Sonny seemed to be in a position to create some steam. However, it was quick and flashy. But no matter even when it does all add up, few people know how, or are even interested in such physics, as it is more important to have some fun drama than to accept that what "is" simply "is".

You may be on to something here. Maybe the entire history of boxing is little more than wrestling. And all champions, are made of the same cheese that we know the moon is made of.

BoxBuzz wrote:Take a close look at that shot Liston delivered. Do you doubt the veracity of the punch, and it's effect?

However This guy had never been down. Were there Muslims in the audience? Was the mob showing it's muscle in the front seats? Did Westphal have trouble in training camp?

Most important, what sort of liquor did Westphal prefer? Did Sonny send him a pint of J&B before the fight?

The forensics of the punch, in this case, seem to indicate the sort of action-reaction that one might expect in the wake of it's affect. The goof was coming forward, and Sonny seemed to be in a position to create some steam. However, it was quick and flashy. But no matter even when it does all add up, few people know how, or are even interested in such physics, as it is more important to have some fun drama than to accept that what "is" simply "is".

You may be on to something here. Maybe the entire history of boxing is little more than wrestling. And all champions, are made of the same cheese that we know the moon is made of.

It was a good right from Sonny.

I did a quick search of Westphal and one site had him as a two-time German heavyweight champ.

He would be 83 now. Hope he is still around.

I have no doubts it was on the up and up......I wish I knew what Il Duce is attempting to convey. That guy was genuinely terrified in that ring, played right into Sonny's hands. And Sonny knew it, and made short work of him. As he did Patterson. And would like to have done with Ali.

Westphal was surely better than this, his worst performance...as was Patterson.

Same with Liston on his worst night.

Chemistry and Styles.....those are the loose cannons of boxing. And it's why a good review of the psyche of any boxer is a good idea before you place your bets.

Carlos Danger wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

Slow Big and Dumb Sonny beat Summerlin twice so Summerlin is dumber.

Not only that, but he beat Summerlin in his 6th pro fight, when it was Johnny's 21st pro fight! Actually the two victories over Summerlin are under-rated when people talk about his resume.

As for Young Jack Johnson, the guy was a notorious nut-job. He tried to pull a James Page on Cleveland Williams after Williams stopped him in Houston, and then afterwards attacked Cleveland in his dressing room with a chair! He ended up getting himself killed in a domestic dispute by his step-daughter. No-one ever clamored for Johnson to face Sonny since in the late 50s he kept losing to Liston's leftovers.

McCarter? The guy who couldn't get past journeyman Otis Fuller? If the quote is accurate (a big if), sounds like typical sour grapes of a failed professional who resents that someone he bested in the AMs went onto to become something whereas he became a nobody.

And who cares about Westphal's credentials . .Liston had earned a title shot long before beating the German.

This may be one of the worst threads done yet....

I always say with Liston, "Imagine a world without Muhammad Ali", then try to think of how great Liston was, and could of been. Had Ali not existed, I can see easily Liston being one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time. Who would of been out there to of challenged him? I can't think of anyone who could of, outside of Joe Frazier--- but by the time Joe came around, Liston would of been in his 40's. So, really, who could of challenged him?

The same mindset or attitude, in a sense, can be used towards George Foreman. Had Ali never of existed, just how long and dominate would George of been. One man essentially destroyed their credability, destroyed their own legend but had Ali not existed, who could of challenged them?

BTW, Liston did beat Eddie Machen, so there goes the "Liston can be beat by movers like Machen" argument.

...in the case of Foreman, there would have been the bad chemistry of Jimmy Young.....in this case it styles and styles only.

Il Duce wrote:Hey, Homicide Henry

Sonny Liston beat an injured Eddie Machen.

Eddie with only 'one arm' held off the Big Oaf for 12-Rounds.

Yeah but c'mon, even an injured one armed Machen should have mopped up the floor with the Oaf. I mean young Cassius managed it with no skill, talent, and was even blinded. (And the untold story is that he was also constipated that day!) Machen was no good. Patterson W 12 tells you that.

Right?

Il Duce wrote:Hey, Homicide Henry

Sonny Liston beat an injured Eddie Machen.

Eddie with only 'one arm' held off the Big Oaf for 12-Rounds.

Kind of hard to hold it against Liston when Machen wasn't holding off anything, he was simply running the entire time. Holding off, would suggest fighting back--- which he didn't do in this case at all. One thing about boxing, it is incredibly hard to knock out a man whose running away and/or blocking the entire fight. Take Manny Pacquiao's fight with that African welterweight (whose name escapes me right now), and all that guy did was block for twelve rounds. Nobody holds it against Manny that he wasnt able to knock the man out. Neither should someone hold it against Liston for running after a man who was on his bicycle, making no attempt what so ever to fight at all.

On September 7, 1960 the "Over rated" Sonny takes a bow, directly after the 12th round of his fight with Fast Eddie, where it was clear that this very good fight was about to produce a unanimous decision in his favor. Simply because Sonny had clearly earned it.

I recall the prodigiously talented Bonecrusher Smith holding off the invincible Mike Tyson in some style too.

yancey wrote:

Carlos Danger wrote:

Il Duce wrote:Johnny Summerlin

Sonny is a 'slow, big and dumb'. He will lose as soon as he faces somebody who can box a little. He trains
little, and is unprepared. He can win if you meet him at Center-Ring and trade with him or back away and
let him hit you.

But if you jab and move, you will take him. He's ordinary after a few Rounds. He's not a great fighter and
he's not unbeatable. So what, he knocked out Patterson 'twice'. It proved nothing.

Patterson was and is damaged goods. He is a fighter with no chin and no confidence. And before that,
Liston was given a 'gift' with Albert Westphal.

How bad was Albert Westphal. He was thrown out of Ingemar Johansson's training camp because he was an
inept sparring partner. That's about as low as you can go.

Slow Big and Dumb Sonny beat Summerlin twice so Summerlin is dumber.

Carlos, not to get off subject, but do you happen to be a rather famous former Congressman from NY?

Yes

Looking at some of the footage posted earlier in this thread of his training and fights, it really drives it home for me that Liston was probably a good 4 or 5 years older (at least) than he made out. Probably more.

I'm aware that some people look older than they really are, but it's more than just his face....it's his body development.

IMHO, at least. and from personal experience.

Liston's pre-title resume was one of the strongest in history . . Folley, Machen, Williams, Summerlin, DeJohn, Valdez, Hunter etc. That's an incredibly solid resume. The late 50s/early 60s HW era is extremely under-rated. In terms of overall depth it was better than the 70s.

Maybe the late 70s, but no way was the depth as good as the early-mid 1970s.

This thread loses much when taken out of it's context, and missing Il Duce' initial remarks. It exists because Il Duce had run out of ways to denigrate Ali....so he came up with another, by simply saying that Liston was a creme puff that Clay picked off, because no one accurately recognized how bad Sonny was.


My response was the "strawman" to bring attention to what he was up to. Good conversation ensued in it's wake.

Sonny was a great fighter but he was what he was, like his former sparring partner, George Foreman, he was a bit slow and plodding...As George showed it can be overcome. Both man had huge reaches so it meant you have to come into their danger zone to hit them and both men packed a wallop.

Ambling Alp II wrote:Maybe the late 70s, but no way was the depth as good as the early-mid 1970s.

In the early 70s, once you get past the big 5 (Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, and Quarry) you start getting into HWs whose primes were in the 60s but who were still top 10 contenders (Chuvalo, Bonavena, Terrell, Ellis). The European and UK scenes were also markedly weaker in the 70s than over a decade previously (the Euro scene especially was pretty awful)
Still a strong era, but not as deep as 1958-62, in which you had prime Liston, Folley, Machen, Williams, Patterson, Cleroux, Cooper, DeJohn; dangerous veterans like Baker, Valdez, Summerlin, Moore and strong prospects like Ali, Terrell, Daniels and D. Jones. Also dangerous gatekeeper veterans like Bessamoff, Miteff, and Charley Powell.

The Top guys from the early 1970s (Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, and Quarry) as a group were much, better than Liston, Folley, Williams, Patterson, Cleroux, Cooper and DeJohn.
70s veterans Chuvalo, Bonavena,Terrell and Ellis as a group were better than veterans Bob Baker, Valdez,Summerlin, and Moore.
Obviously Ali was a great prospect, but Lyle, Shavers, Young, and Bugner were much better than Terrell, Daniels, and Jones.

Gatekeepers like Bessamoff, Miteff, and Powell? Well, the early 70s had Henry Clark, Larry Middleton, Ron Stander, Mac Foster, Al Blue Lewis etc.

Dang Il Duce had a sh*tload of info regarding Sonny liston from what I remember.
Too bad his posts were purged from here.

Il Duce made up most of his "shitload of information" and cobbled it together with what anyone could pull off of google news.

klompton wrote:Il Duce made up most of his "shitload of information" and cobbled it together with what anyone could pull off of google news.

I dont believe so.
I had been interested in Sonny Liston's career ever since I saw the episode of him on UNSOLVED MYSTERIES
back in the day(around 1989).
I think Il Duce may have had access to a former Boxing Historian's collection that may have been donated to some college,
as he never did want to seem to give his sources.

Sonny Liston was still "Mr. Mysterious" during the 1970's and 1980's.
Unforatenly the more one reads about Sonny Liston over the years the less invincible he seems.
Mike DeJohn and Cleveland Williams had him hurt,
Eddie Machen bloodied his nose,
and he was later humilatingly knocked out by the"hired help"(Leotis Martin)
live on National TV in his own backyard(The Continental Hotel in Las Vegas),
also Mac Foster reportley had knocked him out in a sparring session.

Caractacus wrote:

klompton wrote:Il Duce made up most of his "shitload of information" and cobbled it together with what anyone could pull off of google news.

I dont believe so.
I had been interested in Sonny Liston's career ever since I saw the episode of him on UNSOLVED MYSTERIES
back in the day(around 1989).
I think Il Duce may have had access to a former Boxing Historian's collection that may have been donated to some college,
as he never did want to seem to give his sources.

Why do you think that? Seems like you know the guy...