BoxRec

Wonder why it never came off? Wasn't Burley pretty much a middleweight by 1942?

Charley Burley

Sept. 1936 turned pro aged 19 years exactly.


January 27th 1939 {The Pittsburgh Press}
Charley Burley, unbeaten in 8 starts but shunned by promoters for some peculiar reason
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 12,4407034


June 14th 1938 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Sure I'll fight Henry Armstrong, I'll fight anyone" claims Burley after beating Zivic, which he did beyond question. Burley showed what it takes to fight Armstong. "Zivic used his roughhouse techniques, gouging, heeling, thumbing and wrestling until the crown booed him loudly"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 53,2422718


January 28th 1939 {The Afro American} Welterweight 'sensation' Charley Burley rise has been sensational. He has blasted his way through the ranks. Ring Magazine ranks him 3rd to Armstrong.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 055,416530


May 11th 1939 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Chappie Bernstein, Burleys manager issued a writ. Fritizie Zivic got the worst beating of his career by Burley. "I cannot understand why Zivic is being lined up as a challenger to Henry Armstrong" Burley has all the skills to beat Armstrong. The WBA think so too and have ranked Burley number one challenger to Armstrong's welterweight title. Charles Burley has always given his best, never been in a bad fight, has won all his fights on his own merit and has yet to be censored for foul fighting. Its about time the local boxing scribes got behind a lad who is a credit to his profession. He is willing to meet any or all claimants for the chance to fight Armstrong. We don't go around the country fighting pushovers and setups to bolster our claim for the crack at the welterweight crown. Do Luke Carney (Zivics manager) and Zivic feel the same?"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 18,3990339


Between 03/09/1940 and 25/05/1942 (1 year and 8 months) Burley goes 20-0 (15 KOs)


February 11th 1940 {The Pittsburgh Press} "Charley Burley has had more chances than a 'fellow at a bingo game'. He beat Zivic twice and won near top rating among the welterweights. He beat Soose and began to look like there was a place for him as a middleweight contender"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 899,994319


October 29th 1940 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} "If Burley got his rightful chance at the middleweight crown..."
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1274899


May 6th 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette}. In just 4 years as a pro, white fighter Billy Soose has earned his title shot against fellow white fighter Ken Overlin as there are enough good stuff on his record. Burley beat Soose (WUD 10) and looked so good Soose was lucky to last past 5 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 52,4019192


July 16th 1941 {The Pittsburgh Press}. "Word about town is welterweight champion Fritzie Zivic is Burleys manager or at least holds a sizeable chunk of his contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,2663001


December 21st 1941 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin writes that Burley is rapidly becoming a favourite in Minneapolis after two wins, he plans to put him in against a nationally known fighter after the first of the year.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 13,1178934


Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942) - As early as January 1942 a cartoon in local newspaper shows Sugar Ray Robinson (top contender), Fritzie Zivic (white former champ who beat Armstrong for title, still top contender and now "owns" Burleys contract. Zivic fought SRR twice on October 31st 1941 and January 16th 1942), white Freddie 'Red' Cochrane (welterweight champ who beat Zivic for title) and white Young Kid McCoy (contender) diving through the ropes to avoid Burley.



January 2nd 1942 {Times Daily} article. Burley offers challenge to welterweight champ Freddie 'Red' Cochrane. Burley offered to donate his winnings to charity. "I'll even pay my own training expenses" said Burley.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 868,217662


February 1st 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Article about Zivic, he states "Tommy O'Loughlin is after me fighting Burley in Minneapolis and to think I once owned Burleys contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,2898981


February 7th 1942 {The Milwaukee Journal} Burley issues a new challenge to middleweight champ Tony Zale.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 42,2695465


March 13th 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Loughlin (Burleys manager) wired Johnny Bay a $7,500 offer to fight recent heavyweight title challenger Billy Conn. Conns manager Bay wired back "make it $12,500 and you can fight welterweight Johnny Red Cregan" (Cregan only a journeyman!!). That night the 5'9" 151lb Burley gave away 69lbs (4st 9lbs) and 6" in height when he fought 6'3" 220lb heavyweight Jay D. Turner, but battered him anyway. Turner refusing to come out for the 7th round. The 6'1.5" 183lb Billy Conn fought Turner two months previous and beat Turner on points over 10 rounds.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 30,6306850


April 21st 1942 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Tommy O'Laughlin who is now handling Burley states he is still looking for a Burley-Zivic fight. If not Burley is willing to "fight anyone regardless of size and class"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 90,5264998


May 5th 1942 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley set to fight Robinson in 1942
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,2141954


Between 11/12/1942 and 17/02/1947 (4 years and 2 months) Burley goes 23(12 KOs)-1-1 with 1 NC


August 4th 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Maurice Slutsky, Burleys new manager looking forward to matching Burley and Robinson. Getting matches is hard because of his capabilities and unwillingness to do tank jobs. Burleys manager said Burley would do very well against the Sugar man. Burley will be kept busy with tune up fights to prepare him for the test if it comes from Robinson.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 803,249877


August 12th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Just ask "Who wants to fight Charley Burley" and every named middleweight within hearing distance does not walk, but runs to the nearest exit
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 27,4190768


August 17th 1945 {The Pittsburgh Press} Burley said "I'd fight Robinson for nothing, he can have my purse".
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,5618807


August 22nd 1945 article {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR wants $50,000 not the $25,000 offered by Burleys team. Instead SRR will fight the heavier LaMotta for a $25,000 purse.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3804785


August 23rd 1945 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} SRR team are "demanding $50,000" to fight Burley (a fighter without a title). The author claiming "Robinson fears him and wants no part of him under any circumstances"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 15,3620812


December 12th 1945 {The Milwaukee Journal} Promotor Art Rooney offers SRR $20,000 to fight Burley. "Thats one we'd like to see"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 21,5389108


January 13th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} States "Robinson has refused time and time again to fight the clever Burley"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 54,3554843


February 26th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} The Rooney-McGinley company have wired $7,500 to Jimmy Johnston for Burley to fight Archie Moore again. Johnston replied saying they want $15,000.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,5719554


March 6th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Robinson talking about possible opponents and didn't know who to fight in Pittsburgh after beating Sammy Angott. Jake LaMotta, Beau Jack, Charley Burley and Marty Greco were mentioned as possible opponents. It was said Charley Burley would draw a tremendous throng but SRRs handlers demur (reluctance) when the Pittsburgh fighter is mentioned. SRR team turned down a $25,000 offer in 1945 to fight Burley. SRR earned $12,500 against Angott.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 45,4485876


March 14th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Charley Burley who is so good he "scares off" the better named fighters is in action tonight.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 58,3011858


July 16th 1946 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley one of the best middleweights is rated 2nd by Ring Magazine and the National Boxing Association ranks him the outstanding challenger for Tony Zale's title
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 49,4325836


October 3rd 1946 {The Milwaukee Journal} Jersey Jones has teamed up with Lew Burston to pilot the worlds best middleweight Charley Burley. Jones said when Burley saw the recent Zale-Graziano fracas he asked 'how long do you think it will take us to get him?' (meaning Zale)
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 10,1275079


October 30th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley's ugly ducking of the middleweight division was officially today declared as the contender who might stop the rich middleweight division from being wrapped up for 18 months. Abe Green (President of the North Boxing Assoc) named Burley, who none of the middleweights want to fight, who might prevent the title wrap up. He urges a Burley bout and proposes Marcel Cerdan-Georgie Abrams meets the winner of a Burley-LaMotta fight for the right of a title shot. Burley managed by Lew Burston and Jersey Jones
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 468,217047


November 9th 1946 {The Pittsburgh Press} Charley Burley Pittsburgh middleweight made a bid for a crack for the winner of the championship bout between Tony Zale and Rocky Graziano by posting a $2,000 forfeit check with the New York State Boxing Commission
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,4091670


December 17th 1946 {The Miami News} IBHOF member Jersey Jones (former fighter, promoter, manager, newspaper reporter, magazine writer and corner man). Stating that Burley is the best middleweight in the world and avoided by all. Says LaMotta refused a $20,000 guarantee to fight him.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 024,820315


From August 1946 to his retirement in July 1950 (4 years) Burley only fought 8 times (6-2) such was the lack of opposition. His last bout was in Peru. He won his last 4 bouts. Prior to this 4 years of relative inactivity Burley fought from 1938-1946 where he had 90 bouts (averaging 10 a year)


January 3rd 1947 {Prescott Evening Courier} Jersey Jones moaning because Nat Roger, Mike Jacobs matchmaker hasn't even tried to bring Jake LaMotta and Churley Burley together while he's running the 'St Nicks Shows' in the Garden
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=8 ... 346,119210


January 11th 1947 {The Afro American} Ring Magazine middleweight rankings.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 11,1035901
Champ: Tony Zale (white) - fought Graziano (x3), Abrams and Cerdan
1. Jack LaMotta (white) got title shot (fought SRR six times in 1942, 1943 (x2), 1945 (x2) and 1951)
2. Charley Burley (black) NO SHOT
3. Rocky Graziano (white) got title shot (fought SRR on April 16th 1952)
4. Marcel Cerdan (white) got title shot (beat Zale for title and defended against LaMotta)
5. Georgie Abrams (white) got title shot (fought SRR on May 16th 1947 and many thought beat him, loud boos from crowd). Abrams drew with Burley but many thought Burley won.
6. Bert Lytell (black) NO SHOT (went 1-1 with Burley and lost highly disputed decision to LaMotta in 1945)
7. Steve Belloise (white) NO SHOT lost middleweight eliminator fight to SRR on August 24th 1949
8. Artie Levine (white) NO SHOT lost to SRR on November 6th 1946 but almost knocked him out



February 13th 1947 {Reading Eagle} Marcel Cerdan and Jake LaMotta must be given their chance against Zale. Jersey Jones says Burley would slash his way through the entire list without any problem.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 72,3631945


December 31st 1947 {Ottawa Citizen} Burley interview. "The biggest purse I shared was $2,900 and I fought for as little as $20. It wasn't my managers fault, the other fighters just didn't want me or I had to fight on their terms". Burley says "the only bouts I can get are against the wolf at the door". He is compelled to earn a living as a garbage collector. He has been ranked at the top of the welterweight and middleweight divisions every year and with the same consistency has been snubbed by the top set. His partisans opined smart managers and by-passed him because he is too good.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2 ... 22,7021594


January 6th 1949 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Burley flanked by 6 others visited the Pittsburgh Gazette asking what they need to do to get a fight in his hometown (Pittsburgh).Burley said "Its the same old story, no one wants to meet me and promoters here wont give the chance to fight Sala. I can't get a bout, I'm ready to fight a prelim to prove I'm ready". The reporter says "A victim of being to good a fighter of his own good has always been Burleys trouble. The good ones and the bad ones don't want no part of him"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 71,1208361


Retires on July 22nd 1950 aged 32 years 10 months. (won his final 4 bouts)


March 29th 1981 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. Burley said "Jake Mintz a local manager and promoter came to me and said he might be able to get a 3 fight deal with Robinson but I would need to go down in the first bout. When I asked if I get a rematch I didn't get a definite answer"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 36,5377214


May 18th 1981 {Pittsburgh Post Gazette} Interview with Burley. Burley had four managers in his career. One was Zivic who bought his contract to avoid fighting him again. Another manager O'Loughlin said "Sugar Ray would never fight him, I know I tried several times"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 62,3302209


May 4th 1983 {The Pittsburgh Press} Interview with Burley. He said "The biggest purse I got in my career was $3,000". "When I was coming along as a boxer there were things you didn't talk about, other fighters, money under the table and weights. To get a fight you had to go along with anything. But that was long ago I don't want to run my mouth off about it now.
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 86,3051915


Still think SRRs team wasn't avoiding him?

Scraping together a bunch of newpaper clippings does not conclusively prove any point. Okay the Robinson vs Burley fight never happened, but Sugar Ray was a very busy fighter - it's more likely than he never found the time to set the fight up rather than blatantly ducking Charley Burley.

One last thing, I would point to the fact that the original article stated that Sugar Ray Robinson struggled against jabs....................................

Think about that for a moment.........................

The Greatest Boxer in the history of the sport!!!!
The most complete pugilist there has ever been!!!


struggles against a jab. - The most basic punch of them all....






It's rank lunacy, that's what I say.

Controversial wrote:

raylawpc wrote:

BoxBuzz wrote:What is the source of "the story"? Just curious.

Probably one of the many promoters who apparently were willing to promote the fight, even though there was no money in it . . .

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 08,2141954

I'll go ahead and engage here.

PROMOTERS.....they have been known to PROMOTE and this article only points out that the PROMOTER ANNOUNCED....which is a thing that PROMOTERS will do. Sometimes to see if their net catches any fish. So really....this is a bit of a red herring without some other documentation. All it says is that Promoter Announced. Sort of like saying a Cow Farted. Something cows can be depended upon to do.

Crease wrote:Scraping together a bunch of newpaper clippings does not conclusively prove any point. Okay the Robinson vs Burley fight never happened, but Sugar Ray was a very busy fighter - it's more likely than he never found the time to set the fight up rather than blatantly ducking Charley Burley.

One last thing, I would point to the fact that the original article stated that Sugar Ray Robinson struggled against jabs....................................

Think about that for a moment.........................

The Greatest Boxer in the history of the sport!!!!
The most complete pugilist there has ever been!!!


struggles against a jab. - The most basic punch of them all....






It's rank lunacy, that's what I say.

I never posted the original article. I chipped in later to say SRR dodged Burley. People often ask for sources, newspapers of the day are as good as anyones going to get. Realistically SRR had from around 1941-50 to fight Burley, so plenty of time if the will was there. It seems many offers were made and none accepted, what does that tell you? Its common sense why Burley was avoided, he was avoided by every champ at welterweight to middleweight, not just by SRR.

Why it seems like a ridiculous theory that SRR didn't want to fight probably the most ducked fighter either doesn't make sense. Why would SRRs team risk his title shot by fighting someone that good. I'm not trying to take anything away from SRR, he is probably the greatest fighter in boxing history, but I'm confident enough to believe his team wanted no part of Burley. If I were his manager I wouldn't have taken the fight either, career suicide.

What sources does anyone else have to say SRR was keen to fight Burley? So far all I'm hearing are excuses, no time, bad timing, no interest, no promoter, no money etc...etc..., if these are peoples answers then there must be evidence to back this argument up. If no evidence then its purely speculation, guesses and theories, all of which mean nothing.

BoxBuzz wrote:
I'll go ahead and engage here.

PROMOTERS.....they have been known to PROMOTE and this article only points out that the PROMOTER ANNOUNCED....which is a thing that PROMOTERS will do. Sometimes to see if their net catches any fish. So really....this is a bit of a red herring without some other documentation. All it says is that Promoter Announced. Sort of like saying a Cow Farted. Something cows can be depended upon to do.

What it does show is as early as May 1942 (maybe earlier) there was a desire and some sort of plan for Burley to fight Robinson, something SRR team refused to do for 10 years.

Controversial wrote:I chipped in later to say SRR dodged Burley. People often ask for sources, newspapers of the day are as good as anyones going to get. Realistically SRR had from around 1941-50 to fight Burley, so plenty of time if the will was there. It seems many offers were made and none accepted, what does that tell you?

It tells me that the fight never happened - but not the reason. Robinson had over 200 fights - he was a very busy man. Just because the Burley fight did not happen doesn't take away from Sugar Ray's legacy or his recognised pugilistic excellence.

Controversial wrote:Why it seems like a ridiculous theory that SRR didn't want to fight probably the most ducked fighter either doesn't make sense. Why would SRRs team risk his title shot by fighting someone that good.

Sugar Ray faced a multitude of accomplished fighters - some of them were true Greats of the ring - LaMotta for example - and he fought Jake six times!!!. Ray knew how good he was, why would he have to fear anybody?
(especially after beating Henry Armstrong)

Controversial wrote:I'm not trying to take anything away from SRR, he is probably the greatest fighter in boxing history, but I'm confident enough to believe his team wanted no part of Burley. If I were his manager I wouldn't have taken the fight either, career suicide.

First off, there's no guarantee that Ray would have lost to Burley - personally I don't believe he would have.
Secondly, even if they did fight he lost to Burley - how exactly would that constitue "career suicide".
Your viewpoint is becoming more far-fetched by the second - a single loss on a fighter's record does never mean "career suicide".

Controversial wrote:What sources does anyone else have to say SRR was keen to fight Burley? So far all I'm hearing are excuses, no time, bad timing, no interest, no promoter, no money etc...etc..., if these are peoples answers then there must be evidence to back this argument up. If no evidence then its purely speculation, guesses and theories, all of which mean nothing.

Mate, with respect - you are just repeating the same point over and over again.... Because the fight did not happen you are leaving it at Ray's door... and accusing him of cowardice and leaving all the blame for Ray and his team.

Sometimes fights don't happen - I wanted Johnny Nelson to fight Juan Carlos Gomez in a Crusierweight Unification suerfight in the late 90s, but that didn't happen...

I honestly don't know why that fight was made - but I'm not gonna blame people because I can't say for sure why it didn't happen - there could be a numerous reasons.

Crease wrote:
It tells me that the fight never happened - but not the reason. Robinson had over 200 fights - he was a very busy man. Just because the Burley fight did not happen doesn't take away from Sugar Ray's legacy or his recognised pugilistic excellence.

Sugar Ray faced a multitude of accomplished fighters - some of them were true Greats of the ring - LaMotta for example - and he fought Jake six times!!!. Ray knew how good he was, why would he have to fear anybody?
(especially after beating Henry Armstrong)

First off, there's no guarantee that Ray would have lost to Burley - personally I don't believe he would have.
Secondly, even if they did fight he lost to Burley - how exactly would that constitue "career suicide".
Your viewpoint is becoming more far-fetched by the second - a single loss on a fighter's record does never mean "career suicide".

Mate, with respect - you are just repeating the same point over and over again.... Because the fight did not happen you are leaving it at Ray's door... and accusing him of cowardice and leaving all the blame for Ray and his team.

Sometimes fights don't happen - I wanted Johnny Nelson to fight Juan Carlos Gomez in a Crusierweight Unification suerfight in the late 90s, but that didn't happen...

I honestly don't know why that fight was made - but I'm not gonna blame people because I can't say for sure why it didn't happen - there could be a numerous reasons.

You make it sound like I'm the only person in the world who thinks Burley was ducked. Its been spoken about since the 1940s and numerous articles on it. The links I gave are newspapers from the very era saying the same things, SRR didn't want the fight or they wanted double the money they took to fight LaMotta.

I have never discredited SRR ability or his career, he is probably the greatest fighter ever.

What I meant by "career suicide" is in 1942 SRR wasn't a world champ, he didn't get a title shot until December 1946. His team obviously saw Burley as a risk and didn't want to risk his record or title aspirations by fighting him. One of the links also said LaMotta refused to fight Burley. Most decent managers who are steering their fighter towards a title fight keep them away from the fights they think they might lose, it happens all the time.

I have never said Burley would beat him either, maybe he would've, maybe not, we will never know.

All I know is there is enough written evidence to suggest SRR avoided Burley. Also reports from people around in those days who say he avoided him and Burley stated him himself as well as two of his managers. Yes of course fights sometimes don't happen, I know that, but it appears the offers were there and SRRs team refused them. They had 10 years to arrange it, Burley only retired in 1950 because he couldn't get any fights, his last fight was in Peru because no one would fight him in the States.

All this tends to suggest to me there is truth in the argument, and frankly mate this all trumps any "opinion without proof" that I've read so far.

Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942)

Controversial, mate you are making a lot of assumptions here, let's look at a few:

Controversial wrote:I'm not trying to take anything away from SRR, he is probably the greatest fighter in boxing history, but I'm confident enough to believe his team wanted no part of Burley.

How can you be confident? How can you know exactly what Robinson's team wanted to do with him? How do you know what direction they wanted his career to take?
There is absolutely zero percent proof that Sugar Ray and his team deliberately side-stepped Buroley.

You are just making an assumption... And assuming to know too much.

Controversial wrote:His team obviously saw Burley as a risk and didn't want to risk his record or title aspirations by fighting him.

Once again, you are making assumptions about people you don't even know. You weren't there, so how can you know?
None of us know the ins and outs of what was going on whenever Ray spoke to his team.

Controversial wrote:Yes of course fights sometimes don't happen, I know that, but it appears the offers were there and SRRs team refused them. They had 10 years to arrange it, Burley only retired in 1950 because he couldn't get any fights, his last fight was in Peru because no one would fight him in the States.

Hold on here, that's juts not true. Ray didn't exactly sit on his arse for 10 years while waiting for Burley or vice versa.
Both men fought lots of other guys, it's very plausible (and probable) that they just never got the timing quite right for either guy.

That might not sound plausible these days when World Champs are only fighting once or twice - but Ray was VERY busy - there's just no getting around that.

Controversial wrote:All this tends to suggest to me there is truth in the argument, and frankly mate this all trumps any "opinion without proof" that I've read so far.

Cartoon from Minneapolis Star Journal and Tribune (January 21, 1942)

How many times are you going to repeat yourself? You've said all this.

Crease wrote:Controversial, mate you are making a lot of assumptions here, let's look at a few:

How can you be confident? How can you know exactly what Robinson's team wanted to do with him? How do you know what direction they wanted his career to take?
There is absolutely zero percent proof that Sugar Ray and his team deliberately side-stepped Buroley.

You are just making an assumption... And assuming to know too much.


Once again, you are making assumptions about people you don't even know. You weren't there, so how can you know?
None of us know the ins and outs of what was going on whenever Ray spoke to his team.




Hold on here, that's juts not true. Ray didn't exactly sit on his arse for 10 years while waiting for Burley or vice versa.
Both men fought lots of other guys, it's very plausible (and probable) that they just never got the timing quite right for either guy.

That might not sound plausible these days when World Champs are only fighting once or twice - but Ray was VERY busy - there's just no getting around that.

How many times are you going to repeat yourself? You've said all this.

If you read various reports that someone refuses to fight someone what conclusion would you come to? Do you think their is zero chance that SRR avoided Burley?

I have provided various sources of evidence, you so far have provided nothing except an opinion based on your own theory. If I was in a court of law I know whose version of events I would believe.

Why would a newspaper in January 1942 show Robinson ducking Burley, you think the artist just made it up? SRR was 27-0 at that time, Burley was 32-5-1 so do you not think it was possible this bout had been discussed and SRR had turned it down?

I get it however, people don't like to change their opinions on things they have long believed, even when the evidence is shown, that's human nature. So I don't expect you or the other posters on this thread, who have been very quiet, to say there is good evidence to suggest Burley was avoided like the plague. You would be seen to have changed your mind and no one likes to admit they are wrong. If you want to believe it was all a misty dream that's fine with me.

Controversial wrote:

Crease wrote:Controversial, mate you are making a lot of assumptions here, let's look at a few:

How can you be confident? How can you know exactly what Robinson's team wanted to do with him? How do you know what direction they wanted his career to take?
There is absolutely zero percent proof that Sugar Ray and his team deliberately side-stepped Buroley.

You are just making an assumption... And assuming to know too much.


Once again, you are making assumptions about people you don't even know. You weren't there, so how can you know?
None of us know the ins and outs of what was going on whenever Ray spoke to his team.




Hold on here, that's juts not true. Ray didn't exactly sit on his arse for 10 years while waiting for Burley or vice versa.
Both men fought lots of other guys, it's very plausible (and probable) that they just never got the timing quite right for either guy.

That might not sound plausible these days when World Champs are only fighting once or twice - but Ray was VERY busy - there's just no getting around that.

How many times are you going to repeat yourself? You've said all this.

If you read various reports that someone refuses to fight someone what conclusion would you come to? Do you think their is zero chance that SRR avoided Burley?

I have provided various sources of evidence, you so far have provided nothing except an opinion based on your own theory. If I was in a court of law I know whose version of events I would believe.

Why would a newspaper in January 1942 show Robinson ducking Burley, you think the artist just made it up? SRR was 27-0 at that time, Burley was 32-5-1 so do you not think it was possible this bout had been discussed and SRR had turned it down?

I get it however, people don't like to change their opinions on things they have long believed, even when the evidence is shown, that's human nature. So I don't expect you or the other posters on this thread, who have been very quiet, to say there is good evidence to suggest Burley was avoided like the plague. You would be seen to have changed your mind and no one likes to admit they are wrong. If you want to believe it was all a misty dream that's fine with me.

The cartoon also says Zivic ducked him. Didn't Zivic fight Charley three times by 1942, beating him once?

I am not saying Robinson didn't duck Burley. I don't know; I wasn't there. But having worked in the sport, I know there are a dozen reasons two guys might never fight. It is nothing more than speculation to say categorically that Robby ducked Burley, just as it is speculation to say categorically that he didn't. But given the strength of his resume, I would say it is doubtful that he did so out of cowardice by him personally or his "team."

raylawpc wrote:
The cartoon also says Zivic ducked him. Didn't Zivic fight Charley three times by 1942, beating him once?

I am not saying Robinson didn't duck Burley. I don't know; I wasn't there. But having worked in the sport, I know there are a dozen reasons two guys might never fight. It is nothing more than speculation to say categorically that Robby ducked Burley, just as it is speculation to say categorically that he didn't. But given the strength of his resume, I would say it is doubtful that he did so out of cowardice by him personally or his "team."

Reports at the time said Burley easily won but Zivic got the decision. Burley beat him in the two rematches and then Zivic bought Burleys contract so he didn't have to fight him again.

Controversial wrote:

raylawpc wrote:
The cartoon also says Zivic ducked him. Didn't Zivic fight Charley three times by 1942, beating him once?

I am not saying Robinson didn't duck Burley. I don't know; I wasn't there. But having worked in the sport, I know there are a dozen reasons two guys might never fight. It is nothing more than speculation to say categorically that Robby ducked Burley, just as it is speculation to say categorically that he didn't. But given the strength of his resume, I would say it is doubtful that he did so out of cowardice by him personally or his "team."

Reports at the time said Burley easily won but Zivic got the decision. Burley beat him in the rematch and then Zivic bought Burleys contract so he didn't have to fight him again.

Do you have a contemporaneous source for that last statement? Are you saying categorically that Robinson ducked Burley?

raylawpc wrote:
Do you have a contemporaneous source for that last statement? Are you saying categorically that Robinson ducked Burley?

July 16th 1941. "Word about town is welterweight champion Fritzie Zivic is Burleys manager or at least holds a sizeable chunk of his contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 83,2663001


February 1st 1942. Article about Zivic, he states "Tommy O'Loughlin is after me fighting Burley in Minneapolis and to think I once owned Burleys contract"
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 41,2898981


Yes I think SRRs team ducked Burley.

Mr Controversial, I really want you to listen to what I'm saying here, because I'm having difficulty getting through to you here. Before you reply, I would ask you PLEASE to read this post twice.
(and I don't mean to sound condescending - but you're really not getting what I am saying here, and I don't want to have to keep repeating myself)

Controversial wrote:If you read various reports that someone refuses to fight someone what conclusion would you come to?

Those reports are just trying to hype up a potential Robinson vs Burley fight... That's not unusual every boxing writer will have his own opinions about why fights aren't happening.
For example, we have seen it very recently with the Pacquaio vs Mayweather fiasco - and that didn't happen either. And it's not like promoters to make bullshit claims to make their own fighters look good - just like BoxBuzz already told you - 9and you didn't listen to him either)

BoxBuzz wrote:PROMOTERS.....they have been known to PROMOTE and this article only points out that the PROMOTER ANNOUNCED....which is a thing that PROMOTERS will do.

A few weeks ago I heard that Eddie Hearn came out and said that he offered Carl Frampton's camp a big payday to fight Scott Quigg (his own fighter) in England. But who can say for sure if there really were any talks?

Controversial wrote:Do you think their is zero chance that SRR avoided Burley?

Well I can't honestly say that I know why the fight did not happen. But I agree with what Raylaw said:

raylawpc wrote:But given the strength of his resume, I would say it is doubtful that he did so out of cowardice by him personally or his "team."

I look at Sugar Ray's professional boxing record and I find it extremely unlikely that he ducked anybody. He practically fought all the top guys of the Welterweight & Middleweight Divisions of his day.
But, once again.... I would also find it very plausible that Sugar Ray just wasn't able to fight everyone in to his record.

Statistically, look at it this way:
Sugar Ray fought professionally for 25 years: (1940-65)
He had two hundred professional bouts.
So the equation is: 200 divided by 25 = Eight
Yeah, so Ray was averaging eight fights a year!!!

Isn't it likely that he was just VERY busy and he didn't have enough time to fit everyone in.

Controversial wrote:I have provided various sources of evidence, you so far have provided nothing except an opinion based on your own theory.

:??

Mate, you are talking about yourself here... You've plucked a few newspaper clippings from here and there and tried to build am argument whereby Sugar Ray Robinson is some ducking coward!!!

I've already said repeatedly that I don't know why the fight did not happen - but you are making assumptions based on circumstantial evidence and trying to present it as fact... It just won't hold up. Particularly when you look at Robinson's record... How can you take anything away from that guy?

Controversial wrote:Why would a newspaper in January 1942 show Robinson ducking Burley, you think the artist just made it up? SRR was 27-0 at that time, Burley was 32-5-1 so do you not think it was possible this bout had been discussed and SRR had turned it down?

We don't know if he turned it down - those journalists were providing their opinions - based on events which could very well be LIES!!!

For some reason, you don't want to consider that...

For example, I could say Floyd Mayweather & Manny Pacquaio are ducking Charlie Zelenoff because he has repeatedly called them on in his youtube videos.

Controversial wrote:You would be seen to have changed your mind and no one likes to admit they are wrong. If you want to believe it was all a misty dream that's fine with me.

I don't have to prove anything - that responisiblity is up to you - seeing as you are the one making accusations against a true ring legend of our sport - you are accusing him of cowardice...

I (and other people) have already told you this:

Crease wrote:Once again, you are making assumptions about people you don't even know. You weren't there, so how can you know?
None of us know the ins and outs of what was going on whenever Ray spoke to his team.

raylawpc wrote:I am not saying Robinson didn't duck Burley. I don't know; I wasn't there. But having worked in the sport, I know there are a dozen reasons two guys might never fight.

Crease wrote:I honestly don't know why that fight wasn't made - but I'm not gonna blame people because I can't say for sure why it didn't happen - there could be a numerous reasons.

Surely you realise that no-one agrees with your very humble opinion. Have you considered the possibility that it is you who are wrong!

Now please stop regurgitating the same old obscure passages and preaching them as the bible. We've heard what you've said and you haven't proved that it was Ray's fault the fight didn't happen.

Crease wrote:Mr Controversial, I really want you to listen to what I'm saying here, because I'm having difficulty getting through to you here. Before you reply, I would ask you PLEASE to read this post twice.
(and I don't mean to sound condescending - but you're really not getting what I am saying here, and I don't want to have to keep repeating myself)

Those reports are just trying to hype up a potential Robinson vs Burley fight... That's not unusual every boxing writer will have his own opinions about why fights aren't happening.
For example, we have seen it very recently with the Pacquaio vs Mayweather fiasco - and that didn't happen either. And it's not like promoters to make bullshit claims to make their own fighters look good - just like BoxBuzz already told you - 9and you didn't listen to him either)

A few weeks ago I heard that Eddie Hearn came out and said that he offered Carl Frampton's camp a big payday to fight Scott Quigg (his own fighter) in England. But who can say for sure if there really were any talks?

Well I can't honestly say that I know why the fight did not happen. But I agree with what Raylaw said:

I look at Sugar Ray's professional boxing record and I find it extremely unlikely that he ducked anybody. He practically fought all the top guys of the Welterweight & Middleweight Divisions of his day.
But, once again.... I would also find it very plausible that Sugar Ray just wasn't able to fight everyone in to his record.

Statistically, look at it this way:
Sugar Ray fought professionally for 25 years: (1940-65)
He had two hundred professional bouts.
So the equation is: 200 divided by 25 = Eight
Yeah, so Ray was averaging eight fights a year!!!

Isn't it likely that he was just VERY busy and he didn't have enough time to fit everyone in.

Mate, you are talking about yourself here... You've plucked a few newspaper clippings from here and there and tried to build am argument whereby Sugar Ray Robinson is some ducking coward!!!

I've already said repeatedly that I don't know why the fight did not happen - but you are making assumptions based on circumstantial evidence and trying to present it as fact... It just won't hold up. Particularly when you look at Robinson's record... How can you take anything away from that guy?

We don't know if he turned it down - those journalists were providing their opinions - based on events which could very well be LIES!!!

For some reason, you don't want to consider that...

For example, I could say Floyd Mayweather & Manny Pacquaio are ducking Charlie Zelenoff because he has repeatedly called them on in his youtube videos.

I don't have to prove anything - that responisiblity is up to you - seeing as you are the one making accusations against a true ring legend of our sport - you are accusing him of cowardice...

I (and other people) have already told you this:

Crease wrote:Once again, you are making assumptions about people you don't even know. You weren't there, so how can you know?
None of us know the ins and outs of what was going on whenever Ray spoke to his team.

raylawpc wrote:I am not saying Robinson didn't duck Burley. I don't know; I wasn't there. But having worked in the sport, I know there are a dozen reasons two guys might never fight.

Crease wrote:I honestly don't know why that fight wasn't made - but I'm not gonna blame people because I can't say for sure why it didn't happen - there could be a numerous reasons.

Surely you realise that no-one agrees with your very humble opinion. Have you considered the possibility that it is you who are wrong!

Now please stop regurgitating the same old obscure passages and preaching them as the bible. We've heard what you've said and you haven't proved that it was Ray's fault the fight didn't happen.

Ooh lots of unrelated ramblings there buddy, anyone would think you are creating a smokescreen. I have only given my opinion based on what I've read and given that Burley was ducked by many other fighters, not just SRR. I haven't tried to belittle anyone's opinion, your the one trying to tell me I'm wrong. If you know about Burley then you will know his career was blighted by being avoided, sidestepped and ignored. Probably the most ducked fighter in history, that's what adds credibility to these articles. He wasn't some two bob journeyman calling out the champ. He was a quality operator who had to fight much bigger guys to get fights, even fighting heavyweights.

The article from May 1942 about the proposed fight between Burley and Robinson, yes your right maybe a promoter stretching the truth. However coupled with the cartoon from january 1942 it does show Burley was willing to fight SRR very early on. For that cartoon to be in the press in January I imagine SRRs team were approached sometimes in 1941. So yes plenty of time to fight Burley if they wanted to, they didn't seem to have a problem finding other people to fight did they, as you say 8 a year. It seems they fought everyone they could except Burley, funny that.

I'm not asking you to take it as gospel, if you don't think he was avoided then good for you, your entitled to your opinion and I'm entitled to mine. You opinion means little to me as it's based on how many fights SRR had and how great he was and little else. Convieniently you say you don't have to prove anything and its possible all the newspapers I linked to could be lies, really is that the best you can come up with? Yes maybe SRR tried to make the fight and it never came off, from what I know I doubt it, too many different sources say the same thing. I already said I didn't think SRR ducked Burley but his management did so I haven't called SRR a coward.

Of course I could be wrong and maybe Burley wan't avoided at all by SRRs team, but more likely you are wrong. The weight of evidence falls to my theory, not yours.

Controversial wrote:Ooh lots of unrelated ramblings there buddy

"unrelated ramblings" - my points were strung together because they are relevant to Robinson's career, try to keep up here, buddy.

Controversial wrote:anyone would think you are creating a smokescreen.

"smokescreen" you say? Why would it matter to me if Robinson fought Burley - it doesn't affect my life whatsoever.

Controversial wrote:However coupled with the cartoon from january 1942 it does show Burley was willing to fight SRR very early on. For that cartoon to be in the press in January I imagine SRRs team were approached sometimes in 1941. So yes plenty of time to fight Burley if they wanted to

More assumptions and expert guesswork....

Controversial wrote:I already said I didn't think SRR ducked Burley but his management did so I haven't called SRR a coward.

Actually, if you look back over this thread you will find that you accused Robinson of ducking Burley...
For godsake mate, if you're going to get into an argument - try no to contradict yourself, at least.

Anyway, I'm done with this debate. Your entitled to your opinion - I can tell that your a big Burley fan, so good on you - you've stuck by your favourite fighter.

This debate has been stimulating while it lasted, but your points are cirucular and you don't seem to want to entertain other people's opinions - or closely example Robinson's record - which shows that he repeatedly went up against men who were naturally bigger and heavier than him...

But a wee bit of advice for you, I wouldn't keep bringing up Sugar Ray running from Charley Burley - eventually people will think you are a troll and they'll start ignoring you.... Or they'll just laugh you out of the place.

The probable reasons that Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley were:

1. Burley was a middleweight while Robinson was a welterweight during most of the 1940s.

2. Burley was not a good gate attraction. Does anyone know of a time when Burley fought in a main event on a boxing card which drew a gate of more than twenty thousand dollars?

3. Burley was a great fighter.

4. Keep the first three reasons in mind, it wasn't worth Robinson's while to fight Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

Crease wrote:

Controversial wrote:Ooh lots of unrelated ramblings there buddy

"unrelated ramblings" - my points were strung together because they are relevant to Robinson's career, try to keep up here, buddy.

Controversial wrote:anyone would think you are creating a smokescreen.

"smokescreen" you say? Why would it matter to me if Robinson fought Burley - it doesn't affect my life whatsoever.

Controversial wrote:However coupled with the cartoon from january 1942 it does show Burley was willing to fight SRR very early on. For that cartoon to be in the press in January I imagine SRRs team were approached sometimes in 1941. So yes plenty of time to fight Burley if they wanted to

More assumptions and expert guesswork....

Controversial wrote:I already said I didn't think SRR ducked Burley but his management did so I haven't called SRR a coward.

Actually, if you look back over this thread you will find that you accused Robinson of ducking Burley...
For godsake mate, if you're going to get into an argument - try no to contradict yourself, at least.

Anyway, I'm done with this debate. Your entitled to your opinion - I can tell that your a big Burley fan, so good on you - you've stuck by your favourite fighter.

This debate has been stimulating while it lasted, but your points are cirucular and you don't seem to want to entertain other people's opinions - or closely example Robinson's record - which shows that he repeatedly went up against men who were naturally bigger and heavier than him...

But a wee bit of advice for you, I wouldn't keep bringing up Sugar Ray running from Charley Burley - eventually people will think you are a troll and they'll start ignoring you.... Or they'll just laugh you out of the place.

Talking about Quigg, Frampton, Mayweather or whoever is unrelated and nothing to do with this thread, so yes you were rambling. Were any of these fighters highly ranked for many years, beating some of the best around but generally avoided throughout their entire career? Have any of them retired without a title shot? No is the short answer so totally irrelevant, especially in the internet age where any fighter can call who they like out via twitter, Facebook, youtube or whatever other means there are today. Do we have world champions owning the contract of the top contender? Do we have the race issues that were about in that era? Do we have the same level of corruption as those times?

As for me making assumptions, at least I am basing my theories on various sources of evidence. You assuming SRR didn't have the time to fight him, so are you not making assumptions too? At least I can back my theories up and not make uneducated guesses as you seem to be doing.

How many welterweights today fight 220lb heavyweights to try and make a living because they can't get fights? The thing you obviously miss is the avoided tag was consistent throughout his entire career and proven to be true as he was never given a title shot. He beat great fighters and was clearly ducked at welterweight, if he was a nobody or someone overrated then I would agree with you. He isn't called the greatest fighter to never win the title for nothing.

Why would a cartoonist think to publish that cartoon in January 1942, was he in on the big lie too? Would it not suggest there was an element of truth to the joke? For the cartoon to be published at the beginning of the year would it not suggest the "avoiding" rumours were from 1941, or was the cartoonist just quick off the mark?

When did I ever say SRR didn't fight great opposition or bigger men? I've said several times he is probably the greatest fighter in history. Not fighting Burley doesn't take anything away from SRR or his resume.

All I have done is answer your points and then you take umbrage at my replies and then say I'm bordering on being a troll, haha. Search my posts and find how many I have written about Burley, this thread is the most by a mile. I wouldn't call myself a big fan either, how can I be I have seen snippets of one fight as only one fight exists as far as I know. What I do though is research before forming an opinion, unlike you who obviously knows nothing about Burley. Don't bother to reply, your points do not make sense, have no depth......or make any point.

Chuck1052 wrote:The probable reasons that Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley were:

1. Burley was a middleweight while Robinson was a welterweight during most of the 1940s.

2. Burley was not a good gate attraction. Does anyone know of a time when Burley fought in a main event on a boxing card which drew a gate of more than twenty thousand dollars?

3. Burley was a great fighter.

4. Keep the first three reasons in mind, it wasn't worth Robinson's while to fight Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

I agree, Burley wasn't a crowd pleaser as such, to the purist great to watch but not exciting to the casual fan. Also far too good and he struggled to get fights throughout his career, blatantly avoided for the welterweight title. Zivic got the shot ahead of him when he had beaten him in two rematches and by all accounts should've won the first fight too. No wonder Zivic was keen to buy his contract so he didn't have to fight him again.

The weight wasn't such an issue I don't think. SRRs team was happy to gave almost a stone away to LaMotta in 1942 and 16lbs away to LaMotta in 1943. Also SRR took $25,000 to fight LaMotta, the same money as Burleys team had offered him. Also in 1942 SRR fought at 146lb in one fight and Burley as low as 148lb. Burley was frozen out of the welterweight scene and one of the reasons he had to fight at middleweight.

I think it was just that Burley was too risky for the SRR camp. A shame they never fought.

All I take from that is this; the fight didn't happen. There are things which suggest Robinson ducked him, and things which suggest it could be other causes. It certainly doesn't seem impossible that he ducked, nor does it seem impossible that he doesn't. I think what's taking the issue is "I can see enough to feel confident that he ducked him". It's confirmation bias; you believe that he ducked him, so when you read these things, you feel supported in that view. For me, I'd rather believe that Robinson didn't need to duck anyone, but if I'm honest, there's not enough here for me to be able to say "You're crazy, of course he didn't", so I'm saying "You can't really tell". If I'm honest about what I'm THINKING though, it's "You're crazy. He beat Armstrong, he fought many better fighters than Burley, of course he didn't duck him!".

Controversial wrote:

Chuck1052 wrote:The probable reasons that Sugar Ray Robinson didn't fight Charley Burley were:

1. Burley was a middleweight while Robinson was a welterweight during most of the 1940s.

2. Burley was not a good gate attraction. Does anyone know of a time when Burley fought in a main event on a boxing card which drew a gate of more than twenty thousand dollars?

3. Burley was a great fighter.

4. Keep the first three reasons in mind, it wasn't worth Robinson's while to fight Burley.

- Chuck Johnston

I agree, Burley wasn't a crowd pleaser as such, to the purist great to watch but not exciting to the casual fan. Also far too good and he struggled to get fights throughout his career, blatantly avoided for the welterweight title. Zivic got the shot ahead of him when he had beaten him in two rematches and by all accounts should've won the first fight too. No wonder Zivic was keen to buy his contract so he didn't have to fight him again.

The weight wasn't such an issue I don't think. SRRs team was happy to gave almost a stone away to LaMotta in 1942 and 16lbs away to LaMotta in 1943. Also SRR took $25,000 to fight LaMotta, the same money as Burleys team had offered him. Also in 1942 SRR fought at 146lb in one fight and Burley as low as 148lb. Burley was frozen out of the welterweight scene and one of the reasons he had to fight at middleweight.

I think it was just that Burley was too risky for the SRR camp. A shame they never fought.

How would Charley Burley or his management be able to get their hands on twenty-five thousand dollars? That was quite a bit of money during the 1940s. Burley usually had hold down a full-time job to support his family even during his peak years.

Was there a promoter who was willing to pony up a $25,000. purse for Sugar Ray Robinson to fight Burley? I find to believe that there was one because Burley never proved to be a good drawing card while Robinson didn't become a really huge attraction until the 1950s.

- Chuck Johnston

It's all relative......He really didn't need to be protected, but the good sense to take "risks worth taking" is always part of the good management recipe.

Even if you are approaching the sport like a snow plow and want to toss every opponent aside, I would suggest you still attempt to avoid the fire hydrants that may be hidden. You don't get paid for laying those low.

It's one thing to look at general facts, and make some interesting observations......always keep your mind open. But lately I get the distinct feeling that the more dramatic the assertion....the more likely your going to hear someone scream it.

Not unlike yelling fire in a crowded theatre just to get attention.

Used to be you really needed a lot cross checking of facts to make an assertion or people would quickly just abandon you as a "source". These days....some just blurt it out if they "feel" it could be so. And people seem to gravitate to those who can make up the biggest story. Which is all well and good if it is properly labeled as fiction.

In the end, the fight with Burley would have been an "elective". and no one was clamoring for it. So I don't see how you can call it an "avoidance". It was just one of many many fights that didn't happen. It's certainly no "Bowe Lewis" scenario.

Chuck1052 wrote:
How would Charley Burley or his management be able to get their hands on twenty-five thousand dollars? That was quite a bit of money during the 1940s. Burley usually had hold down a full-time job to support his family even during his peak years.

Was there a promoter who was willing to pony up a $25,000. purse for Sugar Ray Robinson to fight Burley? I find to believe that there was one because Burley never proved to be a good drawing card while Robinson didn't become a really huge attraction until the 1950s.

- Chuck Johnston

According to the press in 1945 Art Rooney offered $20,000 to SRRs team for them to fight Burley, Rooney was the owner of NFL team the Pittsburgh Steelers (Pittsburgh being Burley's hometown).