BoxRec

editor's note:
No, he was 2-1 vs Norton, though Ali was never at his best when they fought.
Patterson was in his prime the first time, though his back hurt his cause after a few rounds.
He was still quite rusty when he lost to Frazier. When he beat Frazier, Ali was older than Frazier and had taken more punishment in hisc career than Frazier.
He beat Young, and was well past his best when he did it.

elmersalsa wrote:

cfang wrote:If this doesn't refute Duce's preposterous post I don't know what does.

Top wins in the the 70s

Frazier = Foster, Ali, Bugner, Quarry
Holmes = Shavers x2, Weaver, Norton

Ali = Quarry, Bonavena, Frazier x2, Chuvalo, Bugner x2, Norton x2, Frazier x2, Foreman, Patterson, Lyle, Young, Shavers.

.. and after 3 and a half years off!

Ali lost to Norton 3 times, and he beat Frazier twice when Frazier was not in his prime. He lost to Jimmy Young, too. Patterson was already over the hill.

Ali was even futher from his prime

Ambling Alp II wrote:editor's note:
No, he was 2-1 vs Norton, though Ali was never at his best when they fought.
Patterson was in his prime the first time, though his back hurt his cause after a few rounds.
He was still quite rusty when he lost to Frazier. When he beat Frazier, Ali was older than Frazier and had taken more punishment in hisc career than Frazier.
He beat Young, and was well past his best when he did it.

"quite rusty", my ass.



He was ready for the FOTC and you know it.

He also got a gift against Young and you know it.

It wasn't the first thing he got away with either.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:It depends on the criteria. Ali has the resume, but at their peaks Joe was the better fighter in the 60's for me.

I get where you're coming from. I think Frazier beats Ali on peak criteria...but still think Ali was the better fighter...taking into account everything else...like if they fought a 100 top HWs each...

Ambling Alp II wrote:editor's note:
No, he was 2-1 vs Norton, though Ali was never at his best when they fought.
Patterson was in his prime the first time, though his back hurt his cause after a few rounds.
He was still quite rusty when he lost to Frazier. When he beat Frazier, Ali was older than Frazier and had taken more punishment in hisc career than Frazier.
He beat Young, and was well past his best when he did it.

I think he meant that two out of three of the Norton fights were robberies. I agree that the first and third fights should have gone to Ken but not the second, and that Ali was past it for all three. I have to disagree with you that Patterson was prime when he fought Ali in either of their meetings, though its an irrelevant point.. Floyd was never going to beat Muhammad even at his best.

The 3rd Ali-Norton was very close and could have gone either way, or been a draw. Almost everyone at time thought this, over the years it has become some sort of robbery. Young simply did almost nothing on offense.
Patterson was just 30 when he fought Ali the first time. He was coming off the Fight of the Year and put in some quality performances after the 2nd fight.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The 3rd Ali-Norton was very close and could have gone either way, or been a draw. Almost everyone at time thought this, over the years it has become some sort of robbery. Young simply did almost nothing on offense.
Patterson was just 30 when he fought Ali the first time. He was coming off the Fight of the Year and put in some quality performances after the 2nd fight.

I had it 10 rounds to 5 for Norton...it WAS some sort of robbery.

yancey wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:editor's note:
No, he was 2-1 vs Norton, though Ali was never at his best when they fought.
Patterson was in his prime the first time, though his back hurt his cause after a few rounds.
He was still quite rusty when he lost to Frazier. When he beat Frazier, Ali was older than Frazier and had taken more punishment in hisc career than Frazier.
He beat Young, and was well past his best when he did it.

"quite rusty", my ass.



He was ready for the FOTC and you know it.

He also got a gift against Young and you know it.

It wasn't the first thing he got away with either.

Oh right. Ali was off for more than 3 and half years, but after being back for 5 months, he suddenly is better than ever for the 1st fight. (Oh I'm sorry, the FOTC). He just didn't throw nearly as many punches, he just was slower, he just couldn't move as much. He just somehow was better. Even though no one else ever was better after a long layoff. Please.

How about Frazier? Did he take too much punishment against the legendary Terry Daniels and Ron Stander, so he didn't have much left for Ali the 2nd and 3rd time?

Patterson remained competitive well into old age. But he wasn't prime by the time he met Ali in 1965. He had the type of style and physical attributes that diminish by the time a man hits somewhere between 28-30. Couple this with the fact that he already had nearly 50 fights of mileage behind him and took a few beatings from Liston and Johannson.. Again, Floyd stuck around and had a few more meaningful fights that extended into the early 1970's.. But for all practical purposes, his prime was probably somewhere between 1956-1962.

Ambling Alp II wrote:The 3rd Ali-Norton was very close and could have gone either way, or been a draw. Almost everyone at time thought this, over the years it has become some sort of robbery.

I saw it real time and scored it, I think, 10-5 Norton. I don't remember anybody back then who thought the fight was close. Everybody I knew who saw the fight thought Norton got screwed . . .

This is kind of interesting . . .

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 0768490880

raylawpc wrote:This is kind of interesting . . .

http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 0768490880

Kenny was indeed screwed.

Sad that he didn't become a lineal champ.

I Love that you start off with "In a Fair World" and then the first thing you think should've happened to him was he be forced in Military Service and Combat against his will.

Your idea of Fair is f*cked.

Il Duce, you actually seem to pine for an alternate universe where you are the puppeteer.

Kinda gives one the creeps.

In my "alternate universe" you drop in with contributions that are informative and always include easy to verify high quality sources, amiably share balanced viewpoints, don't use a former hateful dictators name as your moniker. Listen to alternative points of view without reactivity and drive a 16 year old Oldsmobile.

See? Alternate universe theorizing can be very repugnant. I'm sure mine makes your skin crawl. As far as the car goes, don't feel like I'm picking on you, I drive a Pontiac. Old GM cars that are no longer manufactured aren't always a bad thing.

yancey wrote:

Ambling Alp II wrote:editor's note:
No, he was 2-1 vs Norton, though Ali was never at his best when they fought.
Patterson was in his prime the first time, though his back hurt his cause after a few rounds.
He was still quite rusty when he lost to Frazier. When he beat Frazier, Ali was older than Frazier and had taken more punishment in hisc career than Frazier.
He beat Young, and was well past his best when he did it.

"quite rusty", my ass.



He was ready for the FOTC and you know it.

He also got a gift against Young and you know it.

It wasn't the first thing he got away with either.

I posed the question in a FB Boxing group. "What do you think would be more difficult? Your third fight against top opposition after a 3 year layoff or fighting a top guy less than a year after breaking your ankle?"

It was 17-0 ankle, including 8 or 9 pro fighters. When you take the names out of it, the story changes completely. They were both ready to go, and Joe beat his ass.

gilgamesh wrote:I Love that you start off with "In a Fair World" and then the first thing you think should've happened to him was he be forced in Military Service and Combat against his will.

Your idea of Fair is f*cked.

Are you talking to Duce or Alp? With all the angst for Duce's Ali hate, Alp's love is as bad as posting gets.

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:I Love that you start off with "In a Fair World" and then the first thing you think should've happened to him was he be forced in Military Service and Combat against his will.

Your idea of Fair is f*cked.

Are you talking to Duce or Alp? With all the angst for Duce's Ali hate, Alp's love is as bad as posting gets.

Cmon.....the world needs Yin AND Yang

BoxBuzz wrote:

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:

gilgamesh wrote:I Love that you start off with "In a Fair World" and then the first thing you think should've happened to him was he be forced in Military Service and Combat against his will.

Your idea of Fair is f*cked.

Are you talking to Duce or Alp? With all the angst for Duce's Ali hate, Alp's love is as bad as posting gets.

Cmon.....the world needs Yin AND Yang

Absolutely, let them have their say.

It's just funny that the other dude has been spewing ridiculous nonsense for way longer and nobody gives him crap. Ali was better in Manila than he was in the Garden?

Well if "winner"="better" then it's all in the language....or how one values the outcome.

BoxBuzz wrote:Well if "winner"="better" then it's all in the language....or how one values the outcome.

No, he means he was a better fighter. If Ali from Manila fought the Ali from MSG the Ali from Manila would win. Oh yeah, and Frazier wasn't diminished either because he wasn't old. It's futile stuff to defend, not sure why you would try.

Yeah the FOTC versions were the better overall fighters. The youngers would smack the more mature versions around a bit. In my opinion.

I wish people could embrace the fights, even more than they embrace the fighters.

Overall for me personally it's the game itself, more than the individuals that participate in it. Though they do run a mighty close second.

BoxBuzz wrote: I wish people could embrace the fights, even more than they embrace the fighters.

Overall for me personally it's the game itself, more than the individuals that participate in it. Though they do run a mighty close second.

I totally agree, it amazes me how few people don't list any losses as career highlights. All three of those fights are better results for the loser than anything the Klitschko's have done.