The Larry Holmes' Heavyweight Era: 1978-85

[Ambling Alp II]

Look at who Larry defeated on his way to a Championship Bout..
* March 25, 1978
* Earnie Shavers ~ 54-6-1 {52 KO's}.........{W Dec 12}
* The hardest punching Heavyweight 'Knockout Artist'
* Coming off a 'razor-thin' 15-Round Decision Loss to Muhammad Ali for the Heavyweight Championship {September 29, 1977}.
* #2 WBC-ranked/#2 WBA-ranked

I wouldn't call it a 'razor thin' decision loss to Ali:
1977-09-29 : Muhammad Ali 225 lbs beat Earnie Shavers 211¼ lbs by UD in round 15 of 15 Location: Madison Square Garden, New York, New York, USA
Referee: Johnny LoBianco 9-5
Judge: Eva Shain 9-6
Judge: Tony Castellano 9-6
Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

Virtually every Ali victory is questioned nowadays. Doesn't matter how close it really was. The Shavers fight was competitive, but Ali clearly won.

[BoxBuzz]

It aint that bad Alp. It's just the fights that he didn't KO his opponents. No one's questioning the KO"s. The question is could the man box? lol.

[Ambling Alp II]

It aint that bad Alp. It's just the fights that he didn't KO his opponents. No one's questioning the KO"s. The question is could the man box? lol.

I thought he was a pretty good boxer.

However, even fights that didn't go the distance get questioned.
Supposedly he got too way much time in between rounds in the first Cooper fight.
Supposedly the first Liston fight was fixed.
Supposedly the 2nd Liston fight was fixed.
Supposedly the referee didn't actually count to 10 in the Foreman fight.
Supposedly the Lyle fight should not have been stopped.
Supposedly the 3rd Frazier fight should not have been stopped by his own trainer.

On this Forum, there have been complaints about the Decisions against Jones, the 2nd and 3rd Norton fights, Young,and Shavers have been questioned. Even the 2nd Frazier fight, Evangelista, and the 2nd Spinks fights.

I am probably leaving some out, but right there that is 14 of his wins.
If these are legitimate, how in the world could this have happened? How can one person possibly be this lucky over and over?

[dempseyfire]

Ali-Shavers was closer than the scorecards indicated but I still think Ali pulled it out in the 15th. Given how deteriorated Ali was by that time I consider it a pretty impressive victory.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali-Shavers was closer than the scorecards indicated but I still think Ali pulled it out in the 15th. Given how deteriorated Ali was by that time I consider it a pretty impressive victory.

And Ali paid a mighty price for what I (and most) would also call a genuine win.

[Ezzard]

The 1980s was comparable to today's division.

Today is far, far worse.

I think the 1980s was better...but not by much... I just think many people want to believe it so...

[Ezzard]

I actually defied the laws of physics and went back in time at the weekend. It was 1984 and I was watching a heavyweight boxing match. Two gents I don’t remember from the era…. Tony Thompson v Odlanier Solis… couldn’t find Tab Cola or anything but it felt like home…

I just so wish the heavyweight scene could be more like it was back then.

[hhaehre]

The 1980s was comparable to today's division.

Today is far, far worse.

I think the 1980s was better...but not by much... I just think many people want to believe it so...

I don't think the 80's was much better, possibly worse. The 80's featured a lot of horrible fights. Unmotivated, undertrained coked-up fatbodies swapping belts between them every other fight. How many great fights did we ever see Tubbs, Tucker, Thomas etc. in? At the time the division was scorned at the worst ever and for pretty good reason. Today the 80's heavyweights are revised into something they were not, go and re-watch Tubbs-Page for a refresher course on the great 80's heavyweight division.

[Ezzard]

I agree with your sentiment. Contenders around today fit right in with the 1980s guys.

[funso banjo baby]

the larry holmes era was a great era.

all timers are judged on longevity amongst other things.

sure we would have liked a coetzee fight and a page fight.

yes we would have liked to have seen the odd rematch or two

who wouldnt?

Holmes's lasting legacy is the war with gerry cooney. getting up off the canvas against Snipes and Shavers. taking Norton into the deep water. and fighting a string of prospects such as Witherspoon, Bey, Williams, Bonecrusher.

all time top 5

[Ambling Alp II]

Yes the 1980s had some bad fights. Page-Tubbs is a great example. Sometimes the guys were out of shape and/or unmotivated.
The WBS titleholders of the 1980s were a mixed bag. Sometimes both fighters were bad or ordinary. In some fights, one guy fought well and the other guy didn't.
There were some good fights. Witherspoon-Thomas was a very good fight.
Then you also had Holmes in the early-mid 1980s, and Tyson in the mid-late 1980s. There hasn't been anyone close to them in almost 15 years.

How many really good fights have there been since Lennox Lewis? Zero.

There were at least 20 fights off the top of my head that were more more interesting to watch than any since the retirement of Lennox Lewis to now.

[funso banjo baby]

Larry Holmes

The #3 Greatest Heavyweight of All-Time.

Clearly the best Heavyweight of his Era, and the Division was unequalled in talent at any time in History.

There were no >
* 'Bottom-of-the-Barrel' Brian London's
* Injured back and fragile Floyd Patterson's
* Mob-infested and 'Dive-taking' Sonny Liston's
* Slow punching-bag George Chuvalo's
* Cut-prone Henry Cooper's
* Weak-chinned German's like Karl Mildenberger
* Bullet-riddled, one-legged Cleveland William's
* Gangling light-punching weak-legged Ernie Terrell's
* Old cement-shoe slow Zora Folley's

this is a thread about Larry holmes

not an excuse to peddle your hatred of ALi.

go back to your silly little threads and stay in your causal loop of self-loathing.

[drunkenpiper36]

His reign was solid. He was champion for roughly 7.5 years, with 19 title defenses ( Marvis was a non-title bout. ) He had good wins over Norton, Shavers, Weaver, Berbick, Cooney, Snipes, Witherspoon, Cooney, Jones, and Williams. He was arguably robbed in the Spinks rematch.. His reign and legacy would have been a bit stronger had he faced the likes of Page, Thomas, and Coetzee. Michael Dokes was a fight that was never going to be made given that they were both managed under the same umbrella. John Tate around 1980 would have been nice, but Tate just didn't last long enough for the fight to be made.

Over all I have him Ranked as my #4 best heavyweight all time.

[Ambling Alp II]

I have him #6.
He did have a solid title reign, no question about it.
I do think he got some breaks that are always ignored. The Norton fight was close and could have gone the other way. The referee did a horrible job in the Snipes fight. The Witherspoon fight was very close and could have been a draw and could even have gone the other way. He looked awful against Williams and certainly should not have got the decision.

I had him up winning the 2nd Spinks fight by a point; it was a pretty good fight and a great effort given Holmes' age.
His win over Mercer and close fight with McCall were pretty impressive given that he was way past his best.

[drunkenpiper36]

I don't think the 80's was much better, possibly worse. The 80's featured a lot of horrible fights. Unmotivated, undertrained coked-up fatbodies swapping belts between them every other fight. How many great fights did we ever see Tubbs, Tucker, Thomas etc. in? At the time the division was scorned at the worst ever and for pretty good reason. Today the 80's heavyweights are revised into something they were not, go and re-watch Tubbs-Page for a refresher course on the great 80's heavyweight division.

Agreed.

The 1980's had good talent, but the actual fights themselves sucked. I suffered through Tim Witherspoon vs Pinklon Thomas a few months ago on youtube and only lasted until about the 8th round.

[Ambling Alp II]

Really? That was a very good tactical fight.

[drunkenpiper36]

Really? That was a very good tactical fight.

It wasn't the worst of the decade. But I got bored watching it. BTW, did witherspoon have something wrong with his eye in that bout? He was blinking a lot and Ray Leonard kept commenting on it.

[SaadOffTheDeck]

How many really good fights have there been since Lennox Lewis? Zero.

There were at least 20 fights off the top of my head that were more more interesting to watch than any since the retirement of Lennox Lewis to now.

Seriously, Holyfield/Savarese might be the best Heavyweight fight in the last 10 years.

[Crease]

In my view, Larry Holmes was a Great Heavyweight who fought in a VERY low standard Heavyweight division. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Larry for it - and numerically his record is top-notch, but the standard of oppsition is comicial.

Looking at his 20 title fights defences (16 WBC, 4 IBF) , it's staggering how fighters like Osvaldo Ocassio & Lorenzo Zanon were allowed in the ring against Larry. Another eyebrow-raising contender he fought was Alfredo Evangelista - who (unless I'm much mistaken) Muhammad Ali later admitted was the worst fighter than he ever fought for a World Title against.

Putting those three guys aside, Larry's top opposition that he beat could not be considered great fighters either - Mike Weaver, Scott LeDoux, Tex Cobb and Gerry Cooney. None of these guys will ever make a top list of great Heavyweights.

The way that I see it is - Larry came along as the right time... Frazier, Ali & Foreman had all left the scene and it was before the rise of Mike Tyson. Larry was very fortunate in his timing.

Once again, I don't hold it against Larry - he was a very active Champion (statistically defended his title four times a year) and that is something I really admire in any World Champ. And Larry did the business in the ring against this legion of adversaries.

But, for me, there is something missing in Larry's record. Maybe it's the one big key win - that all the other Heavyweight champions seem to have - Ali beat Liston, Rocky beat Walcott, Joe beat Schmeling, Holyfield beat Tyson, Lewis beat Holyfield........
Larry doesn't seem to have that in my opinion.

One last thing I would say is that during his time, I think that only three Heavyweights had the tools to beat Larry - and they are: Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas & Tim Witherspoon (although Larry beat him).

Larry Holmes will be remembered as a Great Heavyweight and a Dominant Heavyweight Champion. But as I say - there's something missing.

[Ambling Alp II]

I actually defied the laws of physics and went back in time at the weekend. It was 1984 and I was watching a heavyweight boxing match. Two gents I don’t remember from the era…. Tony Thompson v Odlanier Solis… couldn’t find Tab Cola or anything but it felt like home…

I just so wish the heavyweight scene could be more like it was back then.

Actually I think the Thompson-Solis fights says something about the modern heavyweight division. Thompson was a mediocre heavyweight who started his career back in 2000. At his best, he was a mediocre heavyweight.

He is now 42 years old. Entering the fight, Solis was a top 10 contender. The 42 year old Thompson beat him.

Upsets happen, but come on, a 42 year old Tony Thompson?
There is even talk of Thompson getting another title shot. Wow, what a golden age of heavyweights we are in.

[drunkenpiper36]

If Thompson gets a third shot at Wlad, I think it will set an all time low for ANY period in history.

[Ezzard]

I actually defied the laws of physics and went back in time at the weekend. It was 1984 and I was watching a heavyweight boxing match. Two gents I don’t remember from the era…. Tony Thompson v Odlanier Solis… couldn’t find Tab Cola or anything but it felt like home…

I just so wish the heavyweight scene could be more like it was back then.

Actually I think the Thompson-Solis fights says something about the modern heavyweight division. Thompson was a mediocre heavyweight who started his career back in 2000. At his best, he was a mediocre heavyweight.

He is now 42 years old. Entering the fight, Solis was a top 10 contender. The 42 year old Thompson beat him.

Upsets happen, but come on, a 42 year old Tony Thompson?
There is even talk of Thompson getting another title shot. Wow, what a golden age of heavyweights we are in.

Larry Holmes had a beer gut and was still pasting everyone in sight. Page, Witherspoon, Tubbs all needed to wear bras and still won titles. Berbick was a clumsy but durable guy who beat Pinklon Thomas who was the guy being lined up to take over from Holmes.

Hero of the era Mike Weaver was regularly KO'd by club fighters - not as though I give much cred to such an argument but there are people lurking here who would.

Tony Thompson, Solis, Chambers, Johnson, Sam Peter, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, etc, all fit in perfectly with the 1980s HWs

[funso banjo baby]

In my view, Larry Holmes was a Great Heavyweight who fought in a VERY low standard Heavyweight division. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming Larry for it - and numerically his record is top-notch, but the standard of oppsition is comicial.

Looking at his 20 title fights defences (16 WBC, 4 IBF) , it's staggering how fighters like Osvaldo Ocassio & Lorenzo Zanon were allowed in the ring against Larry. Another eyebrow-raising contender he fought was Alfredo Evangelista - who (unless I'm much mistaken) Muhammad Ali later admitted was the worst fighter than he ever fought for a World Title against.

Putting those three guys aside, Larry's top opposition that he beat could not be considered great fighters either - Mike Weaver, Scott LeDoux, Tex Cobb and Gerry Cooney. None of these guys will ever make a top list of great Heavyweights.

The way that I see it is - Larry came along as the right time... Frazier, Ali & Foreman had all left the scene and it was before the rise of Mike Tyson. Larry was very fortunate in his timing.

Once again, I don't hold it against Larry - he was a very active Champion (statistically defended his title four times a year) and that is something I really admire in any World Champ. And Larry did the business in the ring against this legion of adversaries.

But, for me, there is something missing in Larry's record. Maybe it's the one big key win - that all the other Heavyweight champions seem to have - Ali beat Liston, Rocky beat Walcott, Joe beat Schmeling, Holyfield beat Tyson, Lewis beat Holyfield........
Larry doesn't seem to have that in my opinion.

One last thing I would say is that during his time, I think that only three Heavyweights had the tools to beat Larry - and they are: Greg Page, Pinklon Thomas & Tim Witherspoon (although Larry beat him).

Larry Holmes will be remembered as a Great Heavyweight and a Dominant Heavyweight Champion. But as I say - there's something missing.

thats a bit of an odd assesment. for me larry's record is as comprehensive a record as you can get for an all time great.
he beat the old generation in ken Norton. became the liniar undisputed champion with a huge span and defences against many fighters who went on to claim various titles after.

with the exception of Page and Coetzee there is really no one missing. and having said that, Page and Coetzee (like all the tainted wba champs at that time) had a six month period where they looked good. same for Dokes.

Tim Witherspoon was never better than the night he fought Holmes and would have beaten anyone else in the world. same for Bonecrucher, Williams, and prob Cooney too etc

I have a similar opinion about Marvin Hagler. i dont consider the Sugar Ray fight to be his defining fight. for me Hagler is an all time top 5, like Holmes based on the title defences.

[funso banjo baby]

and this is related to your hatred of Ali...how?

there must be a tenuous link

presumably this well documented matchup between Holmes and Ferris was scuppered by Neville Meade ....ah, yes..we've found the link.

its never too far away with Il duce


;;-) sssshhhhh

[Ambling Alp II]

I actually defied the laws of physics and went back in time at the weekend. It was 1984 and I was watching a heavyweight boxing match. Two gents I don’t remember from the era…. Tony Thompson v Odlanier Solis… couldn’t find Tab Cola or anything but it felt like home…

I just so wish the heavyweight scene could be more like it was back then.

Actually I think the Thompson-Solis fights says something about the modern heavyweight division. Thompson was a mediocre heavyweight who started his career back in 2000. At his best, he was a mediocre heavyweight.

He is now 42 years old. Entering the fight, Solis was a top 10 contender. The 42 year old Thompson beat him.

Upsets happen, but come on, a 42 year old Tony Thompson?
There is even talk of Thompson getting another title shot. Wow, what a golden age of heavyweights we are in.

Larry Holmes had a beer gut and was still pasting everyone in sight. Page, Witherspoon, Tubbs all needed to wear bras and still won titles. Berbick was a clumsy but durable guy who beat Pinklon Thomas who was the guy being lined up to take over from Holmes.

Hero of the era Mike Weaver was regularly KO'd by club fighters - not as though I give much cred to such an argument but there are people lurking here who would.

Tony Thompson, Solis, Chambers, Johnson, Sam Peter, Povetkin, Haye, Adamek, etc, all fit in perfectly with the 1980s HWs

Come on Ezzard.
Tony Thompson would have lost every time to the top guys of the 1980s. A 42 year old Tony Thompson would have got his head handed to him; not beating Top 10 contenders.
Sure some of the guys didn't have builds. So what. Do we really need to go over guys who had great build that weren't that good and lost to guys who didn't? Weaver himself had a great physique and lost several times.

You really think anyone fighting today would be a challenge for the Holmes of the early 1980s? Or Tyson of the mid-late 1980s?

There were several good fights in the 1980s:
Holmes-Cooney
Holmes-Witherspoon
Holmes-Spinks II
Witherspoon-Thomas
Witherspoon-Bruno
Thomas-Weaver
Weaver-Coatzee
Dokes-Weaver II
Page-Coetzee
Tyson-Tucker
Tyson-Thomas
Holyfield-Dokes

Not classics, but in all of these fights, each fighter fought well. There are several other where one liked very impressive. They showed something called skill, which has been missing for a long time in the heavyweight division.

Where are the fights like this in the last several years?