BoxRec

crusader wrote:Through dehydration.

Loads of fighters today have hardly any body fat yet weigh significantly more the day of the fight than they did during the weigh-in; it's not about fat. Marciano was roughly the same size as contemporary super-middleweights and light-heavyweights, although most are taller than him and have a much longer reach. And he absolutely could've healthily dropped more weight. The picture below, which shows that he had nothing close to a heavyweight frame by recent standards, is him at 184 without notable definition; many fighters that look like that today are said to look 'soft'.

You mentioned Tua, but he was 245 when he fought Lewis and he naturally has a thicker build (see his legs at any weight) than Dempsey and Marciano. In fact, when he was around 225 (roughly Tyson's weight too) he didn't look softer than Marciano does in the picture I've posted, and 225 is heavier than Firpo and Fulton typically weighed, even though they're considered super heavyweights by some of you.

You are nuts. Tua even at 210 (!) was way softer than Marciano ever was.
Fighters put on lots of water weight and binge on carbs after fights to get a weight advantage, but that doesn't mean the weight they balloon up to would be the weight they would've gone down to during the days of same-day weigh-ins.

For starters, most champs in the lower weight divisions fought above their weight class in non-title fights (the majority of their fights) anyway . . they usually killed themselves to make weight for their championship fights; they just didn't have the same time to re-hydrate.

But yeah, Rocky and Dempsey were so "soft" . . look at that extra fat lol:

Are you seriously implying that Tua isn't, by a good margin, bigger than Marciano(assuming both are in the best condition possible)? I mean, I get that whether or not one guy would have beaten another is subjective, but I figured the idea that Tua is built significantly bigger was pretty clear.

Bobbyptsd wrote:Are you seriously implying that Tua isn't, by a good margin, bigger than Marciano(assuming both are in the best condition possible)? I mean, I get that whether or not one guy would have beaten another is subjective, but I figured the idea that Tua is built significantly bigger was pretty clear.

Tua is naturally a heavier man, of course. But his peak fighting weight would've been not far off from Frazier's: 205-210 (he weighed in at 210 at 23 years old) . . .not the 225+ he fought at most of his career, in which he carrier a significant amount of body fat which ensured his flat-footedness.

Here he is at 211. Not very "ripped" in the slightest although of course lacking the chub he carried later in his career: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3ChYdYvwDU
Frazier here looks better at 212: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH-CgNI4eQU

Even at 210, that's still 25 lbs heavier than Marciano's best fight weight, and a mostly muscular 25 lbs at that.

I'm saddened that anyone would think Marciano 'soft' because he tortured himself into peak fighting shape rather than opting to lift weights & create extra bulk for himself to heave around. I'm sure Walcott and Charles would have greatly appreciated a bulkier, slower Rock. They would have waltzed to decision wins.

David Tua is interesting. Even at 220/225 he was soft. Just not as ghastly to look at as what came later, when he rose to number one contender status. Tua's 'huge weight advantage' is a load of blubber. His ideal fighting trim looks like it would have been around 205-210 and then he would have been fast and explosive. Of course Tua would never torture himself into condition because he was by nature a slacker who would do just enough to get by, hoping one of his nukes would save the day. That slothful mindset would no doubt surface against relentless attacking types like Marciano.

I just think the modern heavyweight's love of mass and lack of frenzied, intense action would work against them rather than against Dempsey and Rock. Speed is power and those whipping, jawbone-disintegrating crosses of Demsey sure come faster than the beer swings of Alex Leipea and Manuel Charr.

Tuan_Jim wrote:I'm saddened that anyone would think Marciano 'soft' because he tortured himself into peak fighting shape rather than opting to lift weights & create extra bulk for himself to heave around. I'm sure Walcott and Charles would have greatly appreciated a bulkier, slower Rock. They would have waltzed to decision wins.

David Tua is interesting. Even at 220/225 he was soft. Just not as ghastly to look at as what came later, when he rose to number one contender status. Tua's 'huge weight advantage' is a load of blubber. His ideal fighting trim looks like it would have been around 205-210 and then he would have been fast and explosive. Of course Tua would never torture himself into condition because he was by nature a slacker who would do just enough to get by, hoping one of his nukes would save the day. That slothful mindset would no doubt surface against relentless attacking types like Marciano.

I just think the modern heavyweight's love of mass and lack of frenzied, intense action would work against them rather than against Dempsey and Rock. Speed is power and those whipping, jawbone-disintegrating crosses of Demsey sure come faster than the beer swings of Alex Leipea and Manuel Charr.

How would you compare Dempsey's power to Herbert Hide's?

drunkenpiper36 wrote:Even at 210, that's still 25 lbs heavier than Marciano's best fight weight, and a mostly muscular 25 lbs at that.

Marciano would've always been a smaller HW. He has the same weight disadvantage or more vs Jack Johnson, Max Baer, Sonny Liston, Jim Jefferies etc.

Marciano was absolutely 'soft' by boxing standards. Obviously that descriptor wouldn't be apt if you're just considering him relative to the general population, but this is a sport where fighters tend to come in ripped, and his lack of definition makes it clear that he could've fought at a lower weight than he did.

As I said earlier, Tua is thicker, so perhaps that gives you the sense of him being far softer at 225, but I don't see much of a difference. If you watch his fight vs Ruiz you'll notice that his chest is clearly more defined than Marcianco's was in the picture I posted.

And sure, you can find photos of Marciano punching and looking more defined due to how his body is moving, but when he's relaxed it's apparent that he carried a bit of fat that could've been dropped healthily. The pictures of Dempsey suggest the same to me.

crusader wrote:Marciano was absolutely 'soft' by boxing standards. Obviously that descriptor wouldn't be apt if you're just considering him relative to the general population, but this is a sport where fighters tend to come in ripped, and his lack of definition makes it clear that he could've fought at a lower weight than he did.

As I said earlier, Tua is much thicker, so perhaps that gives you the sense of him being far softer at 225, but I don't see much of a difference. If you watch his fight vs Ruiz you'll notice that his chest is clearly more defined than Marcianco's was in the picture I posted.

And sure, you can find photos of Marciano punching and looking more defined due to how his body is moving, but when he's relaxed it's apparent that he carried a bit of fat that could've been dropped healthily. The pictures of Dempsey suggest the same to me.

Not everyone is naturally "ripped" in top shape. Marciano was extremely lean and solid but just didn't have the type of body to be showing off veins and 8 pack abs (by this standard I suppose Willie Pep should have been a flyweight . . what a fatso that guy was).

To say this man could've dropped weight is beyond ridiculous:

Show me any modern fighter who follows something close to what Rocky did for training . . .6 miles, 365 days a year in addition to his regular training.

Dempsey? . . that's even more crazy:

Tuan_Jim wrote:You lost me the moment you said Marciano could make super middleweight.

How? By chopping off his arm?

He didn't have a lb to lose by the time he weighed in. Unlike say Areolla and Stiverne, who will way in this week I'm confident around 40 to 50lbs what would be their peak overweight.

People tend to forget, that BoxRec does list weights of virtually every fight someone has taken in their career. Rocky Marciano, in civilian life weighed as much as 250 pounds--- as an amateur boxer he was in around 195-210 pounds--- and as a professional, boxed between 198 and as low as 176 pounds. It took alot of time, effort and experimentation over the course of his career to find that 'happy medium' which utilised every natural advantage he had. When he fought in the 190's, he was slower and those fights turned into real slug outs--- while exciting, they just were too much for one man to take. When he was in the 170's, he was faster, but his energy was sapped out of him--- those fights usually went three-four rounds, etc. So I imagine in those early years when he did drop as low as 176, he did dehydrate--- and it didn't better his condition.

True, he could of made himself smaller--- but at heavyweight, it wouldnt of served him any good purpose to do so. At 187 pounds, he enjoyed the best conditioning, the best power, the best speed, etc. And, I might also add--- at 187 he was like a brick wall--- he was solid. Did he have a body builder physique? No, but then again, those body types have NEVER served anyone in boxing well.

Again, it must be repeated, that Muhammad Ali--- the heavyweight by which all others are in comparison to--- said of any heavyweight in history, it would of been Marciano to of given him the hardest challenge. Why? Marciano's conditioning, style, power, work rate, etc. which was optimized by the fact that at 187 pounds, he found what worked best for him physically, mentally and emotionally.

That is not an 'extremely' lean physique by boxing standards. Sure, he's clearly not out of shape, but if he really couldn't drop a single pound more he would be significantly more defined. He doesn't have to be heavily muscled, but someone who's really gotten their weight down close to a healthy limit would not possess the softness that Marciano did.

That was never really my point anyway. Even if he couldn't lose more weight, I don't see why he couldn't still dehydrate close to 168 with day before weigh-ins. Marciano and Dempsey clearly didn't have close to modern heavyweight frames, and many of the so-called super heavyweights they beat were guys that would be cruiserweights today; in fact, Fulton and Firpo weighed less than Tyson and Tua, who were mentioned in here as being small heavyweights.

crusader wrote:That is not an 'extremely' lean physique by boxing standards. Sure, he's clearly not out of shape, but if he really couldn't drop a single pound more he would be significantly more defined. He doesn't have to be heavily muscled, but someone who's really gotten their weight down close to a healthy limit would not possess the softness that Marciano did.

That was never really my point anyway. Even if he couldn't lose more weight, I don't see why he couldn't still dehydrate close to 168 with day before weigh-ins. Marciano and Dempsey clearly didn't have close to modern heavyweight frames, and many of the so-called super heavyweights they beat were guys that would be cruiserweights today; in fact, Fulton and Firpo weighed less than Tyson and Tua, who were mentioned in here as being small heavyweights.

We seem to just be going back and forth, but I can't stress enough that your average boxer today making weight is not in the shape Dempsey or Marciano were and then drying out . . you also are assuming every fighter is Arturo Gatti and adding 20 lbs overnight, or looking skeletal like Cotto at 140. That's relatively rare. Most fighters add 5-10 lbs overnight of water weight. Boxing isn't high school wrestling.

Dempsey's "frame" was as big as Holyfield or Povetkin's. He was super lean at 190 . . he could've easily bulked up to 215 and not shown a pinch of fat, but fighters trained for speed and endurance. There's footage of Joe Louis, whose best fighting weight was around 198-208, fighting a WWII exhibition weighing 230 lbs, and he looks in better shape than either Arreola or Stiverne will look in Saturday night (or Povetkin, Pulev, Solis, Perez etc.). Louis was a very big guy with a big frame but a slow, muscled up 225-230 wouldn't have added anything to his fighting prowess.

crusader wrote:That is not an 'extremely' lean physique by boxing standards. Sure, he's clearly not out of shape, but if he really couldn't drop a single pound more he would be significantly more defined. He doesn't have to be heavily muscled, but someone who's really gotten their weight down close to a healthy limit would not possess the softness that Marciano did.

That was never really my point anyway. Even if he couldn't lose more weight, I don't see why he couldn't still dehydrate close to 168 with day before weigh-ins. Marciano and Dempsey clearly didn't have close to modern heavyweight frames, and many of the so-called super heavyweights they beat were guys that would be cruiserweights today; in fact, Fulton and Firpo weighed less than Tyson and Tua, who were mentioned in here as being small heavyweights.

Simply because in that time weigh-in's were held on the very same day of the fight. Wouldn't be until the 80's-90's would you see this practice come into play, with weigh-in's happening the day before fights.

We'll have to disagree DF.

And HH, ya I realize that Marciano wouldn't have been able to pull that when he was fighting. But the fact that he weighed roughly as much as current 175 and some 168 pound fighters do the day of fights suggests to me that he didn't have close to a heavyweight frame, at least by current standards.

So what specifically is your point Crusader? Chris Byrd for instance empirically could make 175 and yet beat Vitali Klitschko and went 19 rds with Wlad Klitschko. Did his ability to make 175 stop him from beating so many heavyweights who would have to be sawed down to flids in order to make 175? of course not.

Because Rocky Marciano weighed in at a weight that a modern light heavy would needlessly fatten up to post-weigh in, he somehow couldn't fight at heavy? A light heavy isn't beating Rocky Marciano, no matter how much he gobbles up 24 hours after weigh in. Canelo and Chavez might fatten up to a 'light heavyweight' weight but they ain't beating natural light heavyweights, anymore than natural light heavyweights are beating Rocky Marciano.

Your whole argument seems to centre on numbers in a weight column, or a photograph of a man's physique, as if weight and muscle decide boxing contests. You sound as if you haven't even cast a cursory glance at the more abstract strengths, weaknesses and performances in the ring of a fighter. If only Frank Bruno's bulging muscles could have KOd a pudgy Tim Witherspoon. In your world it seems Jones/Ruiz and Dempsey/Willard would be an impossibility, as would Spinks/Holmes & Cooney and so many Valuev losses both official and unofficial. Please peel yourself away from these obtuse stats and figures and judge a man on his own greatness, rather than whether a man could eat and drink his way up to his same weight.

Actually, in my first post I mention factors other than weight and I don't think the outcomes would come down just to weight, although it would be a huge part. This is especially true in my opinion given that Dempsey and Marciano often relied on overpowering opponents unlike the fast and skilled Byrd, who looked sickly getting down to 175 after fighting most of his career around 215, not 185-190.

Most of my posts are related to your suggestion that Marciano couldn't drop any more pounds, which I think it untrue. In that case obviously I'm going to focus on how much guys weigh and how big they naturally are. I also don't know why you mention Tua and Tyson when they were so much heavier than Marciano, Dempsey, and even the so-called super-heavyweights Fulton and Firpo; if Mike Tyson was a small heavyweight even though he was ripped at 220, what were Marciano and Dempsey?

The results of the fights would reflect an interplay of size and ability, which is why the Jones-Ruiz outcome, an extremely fast fighter who was cut at 193 outboxing a very slow, unskilled, and relatively small heavyweight, didn't surprise me. I think Bowe, Lewis, and the Klitschkos are just as or more skilled than Marciano and Dempsey, they aren't extremely slow compared to Marcano and Dempsey (Vitali is probably the slowest, but I think he has other strengths that would more than overcome that), and when you add in their massive size advantages I think it would be enough to see them all to victory.

The Klitschko's aren't remotely as skilled as those guys. they're just very professional and superior to the dung that envelops the division. I can't see much of any case for Wlad to jab and hug marciano or dempsey to victory. He would have to fight, and he hates that.

I think they're clearly just as skilled as them. What did Marciano in particular do that puts him at a different level skill-wise? Can you show me some video of it?

I think Wlad would neutralize Marciano and Dempsey with his jab, straight right, ability to move back quickly, and size, and he's probably the one who is least likely to win among the super-heavyweights mentioned. I don't see the others being overwhelmed by wild-swinging 185 pounders who weren't particularly fast or skilled and who built much of their reputations on overwhelming similar-sized opponents; Dempsey even got credit for a world heavyweight title defense for beating a 172 pound opponent.

Much like Wlad realizes his frailty and hugs to avoid getting hit, marciano threw constant punches and closed the distance very well. His punches came from a variety of angles and every one of them hurt. I wouldn't call any of the 4 supremely skilled,though Jack would be the most skilled, but Marciano and Dempsey were greater fighters. Vitali's skill is size. He has no punch variety and little power. He's a very tough man and that size would certainly cause trouble for many ATG Heavyweights, but his skills are nothing to talk about.

Nobody would beat Marciano or Dempsey simply by jabbing, they would absolutely force Wlad to fight in close where he has no clue.

Your essentially saying they would win because they are bigger. That's not without validity, it's just a line of thinking I can't subscribe too.

crusader wrote:I think they're clearly just as skilled as them. What did Marciano in particular do that puts him at a different level skill-wise? Can you show me some video of it?

I think Wlad would neutralize Marciano and Dempsey with his jab, straight right, ability to move back quickly, and size, and he's probably the one who is least likely to win among the super-heavyweights mentioned. I don't see the others being overwhelmed by wild-swinging 185 pounders who weren't particularly fast or skilled and who built much of their reputations on overwhelming similar-sized opponents; Dempsey even got credit for a world heavyweight title defense for beating a 172 pound opponent.

Dempsey was the fastest and best skilled pressure fighting heavyweight ever. The guy could come in weaving on his toes round after round with explosive aggressive springs and punches, quickly changing angles. Extremely difficult style to fight that requires incredible conditioning and athleticism, and in turn an incredibly difficult style for anyone to face. The pressure fighters the Klitschkos have faced are flat-footed fatties (Sam Peter, Chris Arreola, Derek Chisora) who come straight forward and have amateurish skills. The difference would be night and day. Heck, the two guys Wlad has faced since Sanders who had any sort of punching power and fast hands (Ibragimov and Haye . . neither bigger in their natural frames than Dempsey) put him into a shell and they are a class below both Dempsey and Marciano.

crusader wrote: Dempsey even got credit for a world heavyweight title defense for beating a 172 pound opponent.

Klitschko gets credit for beating a natural 175 lber with man boobs and love handles(Chambers) and Fast Eddie was far inferior to Carpentier.

There is a point at which size trumps skill and athleticism and power and speed…etc… That’s my doubt with Marciano. He has a chance at the lottery with Wlad and Lennox but as much as I’d like that ticket to come in I don’t see it. And he doesn’t have the frame to bulk up like Holyfield. I’ve heard these claims about him walking around at 250 but that would make him a butterball. I don’t believe it…not when he was active.

Dempsey is a different matter. I’m sure he could live with any of these giants. He’d have a great chance with Wlad, Bowe, Vitali and Lennox. I’d make him favourite over 3 of the 4.

To go back to the original title of the thread: Can you make a case...

I guess the evidence I'd put forward would be...

1) Holyfield had fantastic success against the big men. He was similarly proportioned to Dempsey before he loaded up and went in with these giants. Holy's skill was key, but equally so was his punch resistance and fighting heart.

I don't believe a great 190-200 lb fighter with only average punch resistance can do great things at the weight in the current day. But Marciano and Dempsey had great punch resistance. So this is in their favour.

2) The Klits, Bowe and Lewis all struggled with smaller men as well as significantly inferior fighter to Marciano and Dempsey.

I don't put any of this lightly. The Klits are terrific fighters. I don't really understand why they are so maligned. They are professional. They do their job and have pretty much turned over every stone looking for opponents. Unlike Johnson, Dempsey, Holmes and Bowe. It's far worse for the sport when an idol like Roy Jones sidesteps legitimate challenges to go in against postmen... The Klits have faced every legitimate challenge.

Ezzard wrote:The Klits have faced every legitimate challenge.

That adds up to 2 or 3 combined. I know you like these modern slobs, but they are terrible. Especially Vitali's comp, and while you don't understand why they're maligned I don't understand why some of you try and combine their resumes into one.

I malign someone who has ducked a legitimate fight.

I don't particularly like them. I admire the fact they turn up in shape and don't act like idiots...but that's about it.

Fans should save their bile for someone like Bowe who actually avoided a fight with Lewis and cheated the fans out of the spectacle.