The George Foreman vs. Muhammad Ali fight?

[Ambling Alp II]

We have been down this road before. You keep ignoring what really happened.

You are looking at the annual ratings. Foreman was the #1 contender for 1976, but those ratings did not come out until March of 1977.

Ali did defend the title in 1976 against the # 1 contender (Norton) and the # 2 contender in the same year. That is almost unheard of.

Foreman lost to Young in March of 1977, soon after the ratings were made.

Ali did not duck Foreman, period.

Spot on.

How can active champion be accused of ducking someone who didn't fight all in 1975, whilst he is defending against the top ranked guys of the time?

Let's hope this puts paid to the ludicrous notion that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman.

You would think it would, but there is always going to be people full of anti-Ali BS.
Ali himself had to wait more than 3 and a half years to get another title shot after fighting Frazier. He was the #1 contender most of that time, and didn't take 15 months off like Foreman. Anti-Ali people don't seem to talk about that though.

[Syntax Error]

We have been down this road before. You keep ignoring what really happened.

You are looking at the annual ratings. Foreman was the #1 contender for 1976, but those ratings did not come out until March of 1977.

Ali did defend the title in 1976 against the # 1 contender (Norton) and the # 2 contender in the same year. That is almost unheard of.

Foreman lost to Young in March of 1977, soon after the ratings were made.

Ali did not duck Foreman, period.

Spot on.

How can active champion be accused of ducking someone who didn't fight all in 1975, whilst he is defending against the top ranked guys of the time?

Let's hope this puts paid to the ludicrous notion that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman.

You would think it would, but there is always going to be people full of anti-Ali BS.
Ali himself had to wait more than 3 and a half years to get another title shot after fighting Frazier. He was the #1 contender most of that time, and didn't take 15 months off like Foreman. Anti-Ali people don't seem to talk about that though.

Also true.

It makes you wonder how far you can take this BS, if you really believe that Ali ducked a man who wasn't even fighting at the time.

Did Joe Frazier duck Ali in late '71 or in '72? :??

Of course he didn't, but one could make that assumption, as he wasn't exactly fighting top quality opposition after FOTC.

I'm quite certain that FOTC 2 around about this time would have been more preferable.

I'm just waiting for someone to pipe up that Ali ducked Inoki!

[yancey]

Well, I now see the "Ali hater" false characterization always being thrown about as a cheap tactic has morphed into "anti-Ali".

I also KNEW that Frazier not fighting top opponents post-FOTC was going to be brought up as a diversion.

But the "anti-Ali" BS or other diversions won't work, at least on those not blinded by bias.

As a guy who lived and breathed boxing in that era, I KNOW that just as sure as I'm sitting here that Ali wanted NO part of a rematch with George Foreman after that strange fight in Zaire.

It was doubtless a good business move. Milk the title, make $$$ while keeping it safe, etc. I understand that move, many others have done it. Including my favorites.

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

But the fact remains that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman post-Zaire.

It is the truth, whether some of you like it or not.

[evrenb]

Well, I now see the "Ali hater" false characterization always being thrown about as a cheap tactic has morphed into "anti-Ali".

I also KNEW that Frazier not fighting top opponents post-FOTC was going to be brought up as a diversion.

But the "anti-Ali" BS or other diversions won't work, at least on intelligent people.

As a guy who lived and breathed boxing in that era, I KNOW that just as sure as I'm sitting here that Ali wanted NO part of a rematch with George Foreman after that strange fight in Zaire.

It was doubtless a good business move. Milk the title, make $$$$ while keeping it safe, etc. I understand, many others have done it. Including my favorites.

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and not much of a threat. (which btw, was true, Frazier was indeed mostly gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

But the fact remains that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman post-Zaire.

It is the truth, whether some of you like it or not.

Ali did also like to give others a chance to fight for the title...Although I am an Ali nut I do feel there is an element of truth in that he didnt want a rematch....I think he Ali wanted the real top guys to eliminate each other by 1976/1977 - i.e - Norton, Young and Foreman...and they virtually did. . Ali became a business man by then and was being shrewd...

[Syntax Error]

Well, I now see the "Ali hater" false characterization always being thrown about as a cheap tactic has morphed into "anti-Ali".

I also KNEW that Frazier not fighting top opponents post-FOTC was going to be brought up as a diversion.

But the "anti-Ali" BS or other diversions won't work, at least on those not blinded by bias.

As a guy who lived and breathed boxing in that era, I KNOW that just as sure as I'm sitting here that Ali wanted NO part of a rematch with George Foreman after that strange fight in Zaire.

It was doubtless a good business move. Milk the title, make $$$ while keeping it safe, etc. I understand that move, many others have done it. Including my favorites.

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

But the fact remains that Ali ducked a rematch with Foreman post-Zaire.

It is the truth, whether some of you like it or not.

Fair enough.

You do make so great points here & you know the game better than I do & I certainly believe your assertion that Ali was on some money making scheme by that stage & to be fair to him, he'd probably earned that, but I think the real blame for there not being a rematch has to lie at Foreman's door.

Foreman should have got back in the ring in early '75 & smashed down the door to Ali's house so to speak.

Had he done that, it might have been the biggest fight of the 70s, because there is no way that it couldn't have been made & I'm sure Ali would have wanted it, because he loved the $$$$.

[SteveO]

If Foreman had defeated Jimmy Young I think a rematch was on the cards.
Is there any evidence that Foreman wanted a rematch anyway? I don't think he made much noise about wanting one!

[SenorPipino]

I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers, and do absolutely nothing for 15 months except engage in farcical exhibitions.
Ali moved on to others.
To suggest that the GOAT feared Foreman is ludicrous. Foreman displayed nothing in Zaire that would have Ali quaking in his booties. All he showed was that he wasn't a very intelligent fighter, and if you fight stupidly against Ali, you're guaranteed to leave the ring a loser every time.

[Syntax Error]

I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers, and do absolutely nothing for 15 months except engage in farcical exhibitions.
Ali moved on to others.
To suggest that the GOAT feared Foreman is ludicrous. Foreman displayed nothing in Zaire that would have Ali quaking in his booties. All he showed was that he wasn't a very intelligent fighter, and if you fight stupidly against Ali, you're guaranteed to leave the ring a loser every time.

In a nutshell.

What on Earth was Foreman doing in 1975 (apart from engaging in laughable exhibitions); working on a prototype for the Lean Mean Grilling Machine?

Did he expect Ali to send him a postcard?

Fact is, if he wanted a rematch, he would have got back into action in early '75.

When he did return, he never looked good anyway.

The only time he looked decent post Zaire in the 70s was against Frazier, but Joe was so washed-up by then that anyone would have looked good against him.

Foreman only has himself to blame for not securing a rematch.

[yancey]

Foreman didn't need a post card.

I think he knew intuitively not to hold his breath waiting for a rematch after that strange fight in Zaire.

[yancey]

"I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers" Senor Pipino





Maybe the behavior of the "GOAT" following his ass whipping in the FOTC taught George how to be a poor sport after a loss.

[HomicideHenry]

I must say, in my defense, I am not an "Ali-basher". I have said it countless times on this forum that Ali is the measuring stick by which all other heavyweights have to be compared. However, in this case, this instance, I do think that Foreman was dodged. Throughout all of 1975 he demanded an automatic rematch, and throughout 1976 he solidified his position as being the top man. Why on earth would he have to fight Jimmy Young to get to Ali?

As for why Ali wasnt given no rematch until almost three years after the FOTC, I think his loss to Ken Norton essentially says it all. Had he not lost, then he more than likely would have gotten the shot. Instead, Ali lost, and had to 'wipe the slate clean' by rematching Norton and beating him first before facing Frazier again--- besides, wasn't it not clear that had Frazier beat Foreman, Ali would of gotten his shot anyways?

[Ezzard]

I once read right or wrong that Foreman's trainers and handlers felt that Ali would not rematch George. They claimed that George was told to not look too good in fights because he had to look beatable to get the rematch. And specifically they told him to not KO Young early. He then gassed out and lost.

I'm not sure how much of it I believe. But in boxing I'm open to believing almost anything.

I'm pretty sure Ali didn't want to rematch George. But I'm even surer that he would have if Foreman had beaten Young.

[Ezzard]

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

This was collaborated by Dundee and Pacheco in interviews. Everyone thought Frazier was over...and really he should have been.

Harry Carpenter said that at the time he was caught up in the hype for the 3rd fight. But looking back, on paper, it should have been a mismatch.

[Syntax Error]

Foreman didn't need a post card.

I think he knew intuitively not to hold his breath waiting for a rematch after that strange fight in Zaire.

What was strange about the fight in Zaire?

The strangest thing I suppose was Ali's tactics, which nobody envisaged at all.

As for Foreman; he fought like a dummy & that's no surprise, when you consider that Ali spent months telling the world that Foreman was a lumbering robot with no plan B.

This fight just proved Ali right, unless there is another conspiracy theory which says that Team Foreman told George to fight like that to make the fight more interesting.

[Sklar]

George blew his load. Simple as. Had he paced himself better, sporting history may have been very different.

[Ambling Alp II]

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

This was collaborated by Dundee and Pacheco in interviews. Everyone thought Frazier was over...and really he should have been.

Harry Carpenter said that at the time he was caught up in the hype for the 3rd fight. But looking back, on paper, it should have been a mismatch.

Frazier was younger and had less wear and tear on him than Ali. No reason at all for Frazier to be "over".

[Ambling Alp II]

I must say, in my defense, I am not an "Ali-basher". I have said it countless times on this forum that Ali is the measuring stick by which all other heavyweights have to be compared. However, in this case, this instance, I do think that Foreman was dodged. Throughout all of 1975 he demanded an automatic rematch, and throughout 1976 he solidified his position as being the top man. Why on earth would he have to fight Jimmy Young to get to Ali?

As for why Ali wasnt given no rematch until almost three years after the FOTC, I think his loss to Ken Norton essentially says it all. Had he not lost, then he more than likely would have gotten the shot. Instead, Ali lost, and had to 'wipe the slate clean' by rematching Norton and beating him first before facing Frazier again--- besides, wasn't it not clear that had Frazier beat Foreman, Ali would of gotten his shot anyways?

The Ali-Norton fight was two years after Ali had fought Frazier. In that time Ali won 10 fights. He should have had a title shot before the first Norton fight. He had been the #1 contender.
Foreman did not fight at for 15 months after the he lost to Ali. It doesn't natter if he called him or not. He didn't deserve a title shot right away. There were other guys waiting in line who had actually been fighting. He was not the top contender and had to prove himself again.

[yancey]

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

This was collaborated by Dundee and Pacheco in interviews. Everyone thought Frazier was over...and really he should have been.

Harry Carpenter said that at the time he was caught up in the hype for the 3rd fight. But looking back, on paper, it should have been a mismatch.

Frazier was younger and had less wear and tear on him than Ali. No reason at all for Frazier to be "over".

It isn't that simple, bud.

[Syntax Error]

I must say, in my defense, I am not an "Ali-basher". I have said it countless times on this forum that Ali is the measuring stick by which all other heavyweights have to be compared. However, in this case, this instance, I do think that Foreman was dodged. Throughout all of 1975 he demanded an automatic rematch, and throughout 1976 he solidified his position as being the top man. Why on earth would he have to fight Jimmy Young to get to Ali?

As for why Ali wasnt given no rematch until almost three years after the FOTC, I think his loss to Ken Norton essentially says it all. Had he not lost, then he more than likely would have gotten the shot. Instead, Ali lost, and had to 'wipe the slate clean' by rematching Norton and beating him first before facing Frazier again--- besides, wasn't it not clear that had Frazier beat Foreman, Ali would of gotten his shot anyways?

The Ali-Norton fight was two years after Ali had fought Frazier. In that time Ali won 10 fights. He should have had a title shot before the first Norton fight. He had been the #1 contender.
Foreman did not fight at for 15 months after the he lost to Ali. It doesn't natter if he called him or not. He didn't deserve a title shot right away. There were other guys waiting in line who had actually been fighting. He was not the top contender and had to prove himself again.

The truth being spoken again.

All this truth doesn't sit well with all the conspiracy theories around this fight & the absence of a rematch theories abounding on this thread.

Ali was in cracking form in 1972; arguably in his best form since 1967 & should have got a title shot himself that year.

He had been engaging in fights, post a loss of a title fight & still didn't get a title shot, despite being fighter of the year in 1972, yet there are no conspiracy theories about this.

[yancey]

I must say, in my defense, I am not an "Ali-basher". I have said it countless times on this forum that Ali is the measuring stick by which all other heavyweights have to be compared. However, in this case, this instance, I do think that Foreman was dodged. Throughout all of 1975 he demanded an automatic rematch, and throughout 1976 he solidified his position as being the top man. Why on earth would he have to fight Jimmy Young to get to Ali?

As for why Ali wasnt given no rematch until almost three years after the FOTC, I think his loss to Ken Norton essentially says it all. Had he not lost, then he more than likely would have gotten the shot. Instead, Ali lost, and had to 'wipe the slate clean' by rematching Norton and beating him first before facing Frazier again--- besides, wasn't it not clear that had Frazier beat Foreman, Ali would of gotten his shot anyways?

The Ali-Norton fight was two years after Ali had fought Frazier. In that time Ali won 10 fights. He should have had a title shot before the first Norton fight. He had been the #1 contender.
Foreman did not fight at for 15 months after the he lost to Ali. It doesn't natter if he called him or not. He didn't deserve a title shot right away. There were other guys waiting in line who had actually been fighting. He was not the top contender and had to prove himself again.

The truth being spoken again.

All this truth doesn't sit well with all the conspiracy theories around this fight & the absence of a rematch theories abounding on this thread.

Ali was in cracking form in 1972; arguably in his best form since 1967 & should have got a title shot himself that year.

He had been engaging in fights, post a loss of a title fight & still didn't get a title shot, despite being fighter of the year in 1972, yet there are no conspiracy theories about this.

Hey, I'm starting to get it, I guess.

Ali was in "cracking form in 1972", yet was off form less than a year earlier for the biggest, most important fight of his life, after that big, bad lay off.

A fight in which he had NINE times the rounds in actual combat compared to his opponent in the six months preceding the event.

My, my, my, how "form" can dramatically change in such a short period of time.

Thanks for the uh, um, "education".

[Ambling Alp II]

He had 4 fights in 1971 and 6 more in 1972. He was never in pre-exile form but gradually got rid of more and more ring rust.
Yeah, the layoff was a big deal. Which is why when had asked you to name another fighter in the 120 years of boxing who was better after that long of a layoff you couldn't come up with one.

Yes, Ali had 18 rounds of boxing in the previous 6 months. That doesn't get rid of all of the ring rust that he from being off for so long.
Frazier only had one fight in the previous 5 months, which isn't strange at all for a champion. He wasn't rusty at all. He had 10 fights during the time that Ali was off.

We are happy to educate you. You certainly need it.

[Ambling Alp II]

"I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers" Senor Pipino





Maybe the behavior of the "GOAT" following his ass whipping in the FOTC taught George how to be a poor sport after a loss.

If the first Ali-Frazier fight(oh I'm sorry, the FOTC) was an ass whipping, what was the Ali-Foreman fight? What was the Foreman-Frazier fight?

Speaking of poor sport, how about Joe "I always have and excuse" Frazier after his losses to Ali, Foreman, even in the Olympic Trials when he lost to Mathis. What class.

[yancey]

"I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers" Senor Pipino





Maybe the behavior of the "GOAT" following his ass whipping in the FOTC taught George how to be a poor sport after a loss.

If the first Ali-Frazier fight(oh I'm sorry, the FOTC) was an ass whipping, what was the Ali-Foreman fight? What was the Foreman-Frazier fight?

Speaking of poor sport, how about Joe "I always have and excuse" Frazier after his losses to Ali, Foreman, even in the Olympic Trials when he lost to Mathis. What class.

deleted.

(don't want to get too deep for Alp, )

[yancey]

"I don't think that Foreman endeared himself to the Ali camp by complaining for years that he was victim of a fast count along with his infamous "I was drugged before the fight."
Foreman preferred to sulk, toss around innuendos reserved for losers" Senor Pipino





Maybe the behavior of the "GOAT" following his ass whipping in the FOTC taught George how to be a poor sport after a loss.

If the first Ali-Frazier fight(oh I'm sorry, the FOTC) was an ass whipping, what was the Ali-Foreman fight? What was the Foreman-Frazier fight?

Speaking of poor sport, how about Joe "I always have and excuse" Frazier after his losses to Ali, Foreman, even in the Olympic Trials when he lost to Mathis. What class.

Try googling "Joe Frazier was the better man" to get some real education on who was the better man and better fighter.

The great Dave Anderson of the NYT should be among the first of many informed observers to pop up with his views on that matter. Be sure to read the comments after the Anderson article.

Oh yeah, "class" is also covered.

[Ezzard]

Hell, Ali only gave Frazier another shot because his camp felt that Joe was washed up and no longer a supreme threat. (which btw, was mostly true, Frazier was indeed largely gone, but somehow summoned himself for one last great effort that surprised Ali)

This was collaborated by Dundee and Pacheco in interviews. Everyone thought Frazier was over...and really he should have been.

Harry Carpenter said that at the time he was caught up in the hype for the 3rd fight. But looking back, on paper, it should have been a mismatch.

Frazier was younger and had less wear and tear on him than Ali. No reason at all for Frazier to be "over".

Take it up with them, not me.