BoxRec

Posted: **04 Jun 2014, 19:07**

Dennis wrote:Some of the guys Jordan has fought have gone against guys recently who have the managers/promoters with big budgets behind them. So they are quality opponents for this stage of Jordan's career with the exception of JJ Corn who was a stay busy opponent when so many others turned down decent money to fight Jordan in Iowa (neutral site).
Damon McCreary - Jordan fought in his 14th fight. Deontay Wilder fought in his 25th fight.
Damon Reed - Jordan fought in his 13th fight. Mark de Mori in his 23rd fight. Deontay Wilder fought in his 17th fight. James Toney in his 82nd fight. Hasim Rahman in his 57th fight.
Galen Brown - Olympian Jason Estrada in his 24th fight. Hasim Rahman, Mariusz Wach, etc.
Matt Greer - Jordan fought in his 11th fight. Andy Ruiz in his 18th fight. Deontay Wilder in his 27th fight. Oscar Rivas in his 8th fight. Denis Boytsov in his 29th fight. James Toney & Kevin Johnson too.

If these opponents were worthy of boxing those guys and many of them were televised fights, then why are they not quality opponents for Jordan? They are good measuring sticks to see where Jordan is at in his career. Jordan has completely dominated all of these guys and has yet to lose any round on more than one judge's scorecard. To win all 43 rounds of his pro career thus far says Jordan is progressing perfectly. The hard work is done in the gym where Jordan has sparred many world champions and top contenders and clearly belongs in that class. Soon enough he will be boxing on bigger shows and everyone will get to see Jordan's true potential.

"Clearly belongs in that class" based off of sparring and you put him in with the guys you do? Why not fast track him if he's clearly in that class?

Posted: **04 Jun 2014, 20:00**

Lennox wrote:Reggie - Yes

Did you come up with the ranking system?

Posted: **04 Jun 2014, 20:47**

Dennis wrote: If these opponents were worthy of boxing those guys and many of them were televised fights, then why are they not quality opponents for Jordan? They are good measuring sticks to see where Jordan is at in his career. Jordan has completely dominated all of these guys and has yet to lose any round on more than one judge's scorecard. To win all 43 rounds of his pro career thus far says Jordan is progressing perfectly. The hard work is done in the gym where Jordan has sparred many world champions and top contenders and clearly belongs in that class. Soon enough he will be boxing on bigger shows and everyone will get to see Jordan's true potential.

Absolutely nobody thought those guys were legit opponents for Wilder.

Posted: **04 Jun 2014, 21:17**

Nothing wrong with taking time before stepping up the Quality.isn't the kid like 24 or so ?.I think his team is moving him smartly. Bigger guys seem to Mature a Lil later anyhow , no big rush. I like how active the kid is

Posted: **04 Jun 2014, 22:46**

scallum wrote:Nothing wrong with taking time before stepping up the Quality.isn't the kid like 24 or so ?.I think his team is moving him smartly. Bigger guys seem to Mature a Lil later anyhow , no big rush. I like how active the kid is

agree with this for sure

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 04:04**

ReggieDiggs wrote:
Lennox wrote:Reggie - Yes
Did you come up with the ranking system?

Reggie yes started in 1991 and took about two years of data inputting to come up with the 'simple' method before we launched the magazine in July 1993. It was bi-monthly and we had over 500 subscribers and the publication went to most countries, tv companies, promoters. Quite a few fans bought it. In those days some results took six months to get and it was an ideal companion to fightfax as it kept the records up to date.
The current web site will get better and better as the gaps are filled in between 1993 and 2006 so its a complete work of title fights and where the champions or challengers were independently ranked pre world title fight. What is very noticeable is the decline of the WBA in quality terms. The WBO are much better now.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 05:40**

I used to subscribe to that back in the day. At that time I do think it was the best ranking system beyond the top ten you could find.

We obviously have some disagreement about it's standing these days, but @ this point I'd say youre pretty biased since you own the site & created the rankings so you're gonna hold it in super high regard cuz it's your baby.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 06:23**

ReggieDiggs wrote:I used to subscribe to that back in the day. At that time I do think it was the best ranking system beyond the top ten you could find.

We obviously have some disagreement about it's standing these days, but @ this point I'd say youre pretty biased since you own the site & created the rankings so you're gonna hold it in super high regard cuz it's your baby.

The system is no different than it was then in that it just measures results against other fighters. It will throw up an occasional blip because there are upsets, the Federico Catubay is the perfect story in that a club fighter that fights anyone (I think he fought half his fights against top 50 opposition) beat someone ranked 11...and thats how he actually got ranked as high as 9. Normally he was ranked around 40-60 but he did have a good patch. The IWBR rewards results and I think that is right and not biased, ratings that reflect promotional tie ups, red tape, or award high ratings for wining regional belts are not right.
It is the way the results are rewarded that I may be biased as obviously I think my way is best.

You still need to point me where the fighters are that are out of line as generally within the top 100 I can't see too many. And do you still maintain them as sh!t?

Someone like Jordan Shimmel is ranked mid 80s on IWBR but probably is in the 40s on Boxrec. It is what you think is fairest. I know from assisting in his USBO matchmaking he is potentially good, and potentially capable of a top 10 ranking, but at this point going by what he has beaten (no one in the top 150) he does not deserve to be 40 in my biased opinion.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 07:39**

And I said @ the time it was the best for guys past the top ten. Now boxrec is imho. In as honest an opinion as you can give do you see iwbr has being better then boxrec?

And brother we went over the problems I had with your rankings already. Believe another guy in the other thread who actually is super into rankimgs took issue with that Federico cat too. I don't see much sense in wasting time going over every issue I could have with iwbr when the couple things you've told me I have issues with. It'd be like continuing an argument about politics after you told me you think all politicians are lizards.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 08:03**

ReggieDiggs wrote:And I said @ the time it was the best for guys past the top ten. Now boxrec is imho. In as honest an opinion as you can give do you see iwbr has being better then boxrec?

And brother we went over the problems I had with your rankings already. Believe another guy in the other thread who actually is super into rankimgs took issue with that Federico cat too. I don't see much sense in wasting time going over every issue I could have with iwbr when the couple things you've told me I have issues with. It'd be like continuing an argument about politics after you told me you think all politicians are lizards.

Reggie Yes I see the IWBR rankings v Boxrec rankings as absolutely no comparison.
Boxrec you can go high with meaningless wins. IWBR position is calculated by measurement against other fighters.
With Boxrec you can lose to someone then fight the next day and go past the fighter that just beat you. With IWBR everything is moved in sequence so that can't happen.
IWBR factors making compliant fights, so that the quality control means that top fighters must fight other good fighters or will drop in the rankings. With Boxrec their quality control involves fighting others within a certain points range, so if you are miles ahead on points almost every fight you lose points because no opponent was good enough. Wladimir lost points because he did not fight his brother.
Rankings are likely to be similar in everyones top 10, the real strength is the ones below 20 or 30 and getting those right. There are a lot of promoters that believe strongly in them from 25-100 and will take/reject fights on the basis of the IWBR rank or (IBO as it was until this year). I have heard a lot of laughing at boxrec rankings. You need to be an international matchmaker to really understand if #76 on either IWBR or Boxrec is right or wrong. I just noticed Jordan Shimmell is number 26....that to me is embarrasing for boxrec and that happens far too much, so if you still think boxrec is better than IWBR then yes I am not going to convince you. It is good to talk civilised anyway.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 08:11**

Again not that mines is better than boxrec or the IBO one but Shimmell isn't even a top 50 cruser in my personal ranking not that means anything I'm just a nobody and Catubay ever being top 10 early a legit ranking system I dont think ever had that.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 08:47**

Fwiw I do see boxrec as better from iwbr but it's not perfect. No rankings are. I definitely agree Boxrec overvalues winning, but w/o knowing fully how iwbr calculates their rankings (Ill check this out sometime today when I got more time & comment further) it would appear iwbr overvalues losing &/or merely fighting good opponents. You said in the other thread that wasn't the case but you seem to be saying opposite now if I'm understanding you right.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 11:19**

world ranked wrote:These two things they have in common. They all lost to those guys and their Midwest guys small circuit guys where's the matchups with the other prospects. Or non-Midwest guys. They guys you named are perennial losers.

McCreary lost once so how is he a perennial loser? Galen Brown had won 3 in a row and just beat a 12-1 guy.
Boxing matchmaking has a lot to with the economics of the sport. It is difficult to get other prospects to fight Jordan as they all want too much money to take the risk. As far as midwest guys go, Jordan lives in Michigan so yes getting opponents from a 300 mile radius costs less as they can drive to the show. The matchmakers for some of these shows have offered the fights to guys from the East Coast, the Southeast, the West Coast, etc with 3 flights included to no avail.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 11:23**

Lennox wrote:Sad- They might be under the radar at the moment, but there is $1,000,000 behind them in advertising if I want to use it. They were known as the bible to many of the TV companies until I let them go to the IBO on licence. I have turned down three offers of deals so far and am in talks with one that would be a significant difference to the world of boxing.

Yeah, a million dollars will really change Boxing. Get over yourself, those rankings mean nothing.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 11:41**

Lennox wrote:Someone like Jordan Shimmel is ranked mid 80s on IWBR but probably is in the 40s on Boxrec. It is what you think is fairest. I know from assisting in his USBO matchmaking he is potentially good, and potentially capable of a top 10 ranking, but at this point going by what he has beaten (no one in the top 150) he does not deserve to be 40 in my biased opinion.

Assisting in his USBO matchmaking? In what way? I know the promoter of the show quite well since he is my father. I also know the matchmaker we used.
In regard to rankings, I would love to have Jordan box Giacobbe Fragomeni or Silvio Branco right now. Both are old and becoming "has beens" but are still ranked #18 and #19 respectively by IWBR.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 11:43**

Dennis wrote:
world ranked wrote:These two things they have in common. They all lost to those guys and their Midwest guys small circuit guys where's the matchups with the other prospects. Or non-Midwest guys. They guys you named are perennial losers.
McCreary lost once so how is he a perennial loser? Galen Brown had won 3 in a row and just beat a 12-1 guy.
Boxing matchmaking has a lot to with the economics of the sport. It is difficult to get other prospects to fight Jordan as they all want too much money to take the risk. As far as midwest guys go, Jordan lives in Michigan so yes getting opponents from a 300 mile radius costs less as they can drive to the show. The matchmakers for some of these shows have offered the fights to guys from the East Coast, the Southeast, the West Coast, etc with 3 flights included to no avail.

I understand the economics of it. But to say these are good opponents to prepare him for his step up wrong. These guys are perennial losers. None of those has a meaningul win in the landscape of boxing. These guys are part time boxer or two old to really take this game seriously. He'll continue to whoop these bums until he gets moved to big promoter. I just don't expect a step up with the small promoters he working with now. They just don't the funds to attract meaningful fights which means he'll
B-side for someone else soon enough instead of being promoting correctly.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 13:36**

Dennis wrote:
Lennox wrote:Someone like Jordan Shimmel is ranked mid 80s on IWBR but probably is in the 40s on Boxrec. It is what you think is fairest. I know from assisting in his USBO matchmaking he is potentially good, and potentially capable of a top 10 ranking, but at this point going by what he has beaten (no one in the top 150) he does not deserve to be 40 in my biased opinion.
Assisting in his USBO matchmaking? In what way? I know the promoter of the show quite well since he is my father. I also know the matchmaker we used.
In regard to rankings, I would love to have Jordan box Giacobbe Fragomeni or Silvio Branco right now. Both are old and becoming "has beens" but are still ranked #18 and #19 respectively by IWBR.

I agreed he could fight Galen Brown for the USBO (IWBR were IBO linked, so we discussed lots of fights). Fighters like Branco and Fragomeni are the types of fighters that are very beatable, they are going to cost you plenty, plus as soon as you beat them you won't get cheap fights, so my advice (to get more experience mainly) is to gradually jump up the ladder and look at someone ranked between 60-100 first then someone 40-80 then the #18 #19 guys...Jordan will need to step up and learn in stages you can still fill in a few club fights, but he needs some numbers in his wins, jumping straight to championship level too quick often leads to mistakes.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 13:39**

SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Lennox wrote:Sad- They might be under the radar at the moment, but there is $1,000,000 behind them in advertising if I want to use it. They were known as the bible to many of the TV companies until I let them go to the IBO on licence. I have turned down three offers of deals so far and am in talks with one that would be a significant difference to the world of boxing.

Yeah, a million dollars will really change Boxing. Get over yourself, those rankings mean nothing.

As soon as I realise they mean nothing I will pack it in.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 13:52**

Lennox wrote:Fighters like Branco and Fragomeni are the types of fighters that are very beatable, they are going to cost you plenty, plus as soon as you beat them you won't get cheap fights, so my advice (to get more experience mainly) is to gradually jump up the ladder and look at someone ranked between 60-100 first then someone 40-80 then the #18 #19 guys...Jordan will need to step up and learn in stages you can still fill in a few club fights, but he needs some numbers in his wins, jumping straight to championship level too quick often leads to mistakes.

Someone who understands the process. Exactly what we are doing.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 13:57**

world ranked wrote:I understand the economics of it. But to say these are good opponents to prepare him for his step up wrong. These guys are perennial losers. None of those has a meaningul win in the landscape of boxing. These guys are part time boxer or two old to really take this game seriously. He'll continue to whoop these bums until he gets moved to big promoter. I just don't expect a step up with the small promoters he working with now. They just don't the funds to attract meaningful fights which means he'll B-side for someone else soon enough instead of being promoting correctly.

I disagree. Jordan is being moved properly. Time will tell.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 14:09**

Dennis wrote:
Lennox wrote:Fighters like Branco and Fragomeni are the types of fighters that are very beatable, they are going to cost you plenty, plus as soon as you beat them you won't get cheap fights, so my advice (to get more experience mainly) is to gradually jump up the ladder and look at someone ranked between 60-100 first then someone 40-80 then the #18 #19 guys...Jordan will need to step up and learn in stages you can still fill in a few club fights, but he needs some numbers in his wins, jumping straight to championship level too quick often leads to mistakes.
Someone who understands the process. Exactly what we are doing.

But he's not learning with a first round KO. Each fight should have meaning behind them these fights don't he just fighting
guys who can take the fight for short money. Look at his last five opponents and tell me difference in them in talent or resume. Compare his resume to another another rising cruserweight with the same number of fights and tell me these are meaningful fights.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 14:13**

Lennox wrote:I agreed he could fight Galen Brown for the USBO (IWBR were IBO linked, so we discussed lots of fights). Fighters like Branco and Fragomeni are the types of fighters that are very beatable, they are going to cost you plenty, plus as soon as you beat them you won't get cheap fights, so my advice (to get more experience mainly) is to gradually jump up the ladder and look at someone ranked between 60-100 first then someone 40-80 then the #18 #19 guys...Jordan will need to step up and learn in stages you can still fill in a few club fights, but he needs some numbers in his wins, jumping straight to championship level too quick often leads to mistakes.

Gradually jumping up is fine. The issue is that he has been jumping down. Nobody would be complaining if he had fought guys from #60-100. His last few fights have been against guys that are not even #200 let alone #100.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 15:12**

Lennox wrote:
SaadOffTheDeck wrote:
Lennox wrote:Sad- They might be under the radar at the moment, but there is $1,000,000 behind them in advertising if I want to use it. They were known as the bible to many of the TV companies until I let them go to the IBO on licence. I have turned down three offers of deals so far and am in talks with one that would be a significant difference to the world of boxing.

Yeah, a million dollars will really change Boxing. Get over yourself, those rankings mean nothing.
As soon as I realise they mean nothing I will pack it in.

They can certainly mean something to you. Honestly I've never heard of them, but I don't pay attention to any rankings anymore. All i meant was they have no affect on the sport, not that it's a waste of time. The only rankings that matter are the ones from the corrupt alphabet organizations that actually lead to fights being made.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 15:43**

Out of all the cruiserweights in the United States, with whom would you like to compare Jordan?
According to BoxRec there are 193 of them. Jordan is the only one on the list to have more than 10 wins and no losses or draws. Mike Wilson in 10-0 and doing well but he turned pro in 2009. Jordan is the only boxer on the list to amass 15 fights in less than 2 years. Most have been pro for many years to accumulate 15 fights.
Even if you were to compare him against U.S. heavyweights there are very few who can compare.

Posted: **05 Jun 2014, 16:36**

Overall I don't think his opposition is poor in the context of him being a pro for just under 2 years. It looks a bit poor if you consider that he's had 15 fights without a notable opponent, but I think fighters should be judged in the first context and not the second, so that they aren't punished for keeping busy. His opposition has gotten a bit worse recently, but that's over only about half a year, a period in which a lot of guys will fight only once or twice, and generally I don't think there is a bigger problem with competing against weak opponents than not competing at all.

They are clearly keeping him active and building a marketable record, and hopefully he will fight a solid opponent (someone like Sands or Duradola) soon. A year from now his best opponent shouldn't be Galen Brown.

BoxRec

Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1

Re: Top USA Emerging Cruiser Shimmell 15-0 13KO stops Corn in 1