IF YOU COULD ONLY PICK ONE ?

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 26 May 2004, 10:47

bennie wrote:
Southpaw Stylist wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:Pernell was a fantastic fighter, one of my favourites, but not the best.
What did he not do that was not up there with the best??
He let himself down after he retired.

What happens after retirement does not change a boxer's achievements pre-retirement.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 May 2004, 10:47

Southpaw Stylist wrote:From the top of my head

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6.Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker

Good list. Looking at that, I wouldn't argue with Whitaker in there.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 26 May 2004, 10:48

Exactly.

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 26 May 2004, 10:49

Southpaw Stylist wrote:From the top of my head

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Muhammad Ali
4. Joe Louis
5. Roberto Duran
6.Willie Pep
7. Harry Greb
8. Benny Leonard
9. Sugar Ray Leonard
10. Pernell Whitaker

Cheers Southpaw. No Monzon, if only i knew who'd compiled that list they'd be in for a barrage of obscene phone calls.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 May 2004, 10:50

Matchfixer wrote:
bennie wrote:
Southpaw Stylist wrote: What did he not do that was not up there with the best??
He let himself down after he retired.
What happens after retirement does not change a boxer's achievements pre-retirement.

In a perfect world, no. But the great Benny Lynch, dead at 33, is immortalised for his tragic downfall more than his ring achievements.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 26 May 2004, 10:50

Well, I wouldn't say he quite faced the level of competition that either Robinson or Armstrong did, not did he maintain the top level for as long as Pep.

Don't get me wrong he's definetly in my top 5, but not at the top.

Henry Armstrong always gets overlooked for the number 1 spot, but he defended the welterweight title 20 times in 2 years, including wins over Barney Ross, Lou Ambers,and even middleweight Ceferino Garcia! When you look at his career, it's length the huge number of fights, and his achievements to win titles in 3 weight divisions, in an era when the titles had one champ.

He won the welterweight title the first time weighing only 134 lbs! in fact despite being welterweight champ for 20 defences, he never scaled 147 in his entire career.

As for what Pernell did out of the ring, I don't hold that against him, I just think he could have been even greater had he not dissipated his talent.

His 'victory' over Chavez is probably the most impressive fight of his career.

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 26 May 2004, 10:54

Monzon was 11.

11. Carlos Monzon
12. Rocky Marciano
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Archie Moore
15. Sandy Saddler
16. Jack Dempsey
17. Marvin Hagler
18. JC Chavez
19. Eder Jofre
20. Alexis Arguello

Matchfixer · Post by **Matchfixer** » 26 May 2004, 10:56

Duran above Sugar Ray Leonard - Is that a fair assessment?

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 26 May 2004, 11:01

I'd have maybe had him a little higher. I know it's probably a little controversial but i'd have Duran lower than he is, maybe not even in the top ten. It's a great list though.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 May 2004, 11:06

Matchfixer wrote:Duran above Sugar Ray Leonard - Is that a fair assessment?

Yeah, Duran was already getting on when he fought Leonard. Duran achieved more than Leonard in their respective careers in my opinion.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 26 May 2004, 14:22

Sugar Ray Leonard.

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 26 May 2004, 14:52

ray robinson, he could punch with either hand, he moved like a dancer ( he was one) had enough heart to go into the trenches with guys like lamotta and basilio and the only time he failed to hear the final bell in 202 fights was due to heat exhaustion.
he also had 85 amateur fights in which he had 69 ko`s. (40 in first round)
no.1 p4p imo

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 26 May 2004, 15:07

Hagler.

Interesting to see that yet again people put Harry Greb in these lists. There are no films whatsoever of him fighting. I would imagine all the posters her were born many decades after his death.

So all we can go by are stories, many of which cant be verified one way or another and are clouded through the mists of time, passed from one generation to the next, adding a bit here and there.

so how exactly can anyone place him anywhere on a list when next to no-one alive can remember seeing him fight.

why not go back to the 1800s for a list of the greatest??

Peter Jackson, Joe Choynski, Paddy Ryan or Jack Kilrain anyone?? no one has seen them fight, no video tapes exist and all we got are stories.... there is absolutely no way to judge how they would have managed against anyone else... a bit like Harry Greb

harley_man · Post by **harley_man** » 26 May 2004, 15:47

neil r wrote:Hagler.

Interesting to see that yet again people put Harry Greb in these lists. There are no films whatsoever of him fighting. I would imagine all the posters her were born many decades after his death.

So all we can go by are stories, many of which cant be verified one way or another and are clouded through the mists of time, passed from one generation to the next, adding a bit here and there.

so how exactly can anyone place him anywhere on a list when next to no-one alive can remember seeing him fight.

why not go back to the 1800s for a list of the greatest??

Peter Jackson, Joe Choynski, Paddy Ryan or Jack Kilrain anyone?? no one has seen them fight, no video tapes exist and all we got are stories.... there is absolutely no way to judge how they would have managed against anyone else... a bit like Harry Greb

Yes, good angle to come from.

My instinct is always to say Ray Robinson, and whenever I doubt myself I go to the tape I have of him. He's the only figher I've ever seen from the black and white tv era (my own little categorizing criteria here) who I feel could be plucked from his era and dropped in another. Maybe that's an all-time P4P argument but, hell, isn't that the point?

Yes, the Ali I have on tape could have reigned in the 80s, 90s and 00s, because he was a freakish talent, but nobody from those earlier eras could realistically compete against the other comparable top fighters from across generations. Televised fights used to be played fast too but with Robinson, no matter what speed you rolled the tape, he was the greatest and outclassed his opponents.

bennie · Post by **bennie** » 26 May 2004, 15:54

Courtesy of Mighty Warrior: http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html
Some great clips of Greb; the quality in quicktime is excellent

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 26 May 2004, 18:10

bennie wrote:Courtesy of Mighty Warrior: http://www.harrygreb.com/homepagewithframeset.html
Some great clips of Greb; the quality in quicktime is excellent

those clips are good and ive downloaded them a year or two ago and saved to disc. however they are only "training" clips and very daft re-enactments of his last k o punch!!

if anyone ever does come across genuine fight footage of mr greb they would be a very rich man!

Southpaw Stylist · Post by **Southpaw Stylist** » 26 May 2004, 18:24

Apparently, there is no footagae ANYWHERE on earth of Sugar Ray at his best in the welterweight days, so how anyone can say that he's the best when they have never seen him at his best is crazy.

neil r · Post by **neil r** » 26 May 2004, 18:31

Southpaw Stylist wrote:Apparently, there is no footagae ANYWHERE on earth of Sugar Ray at his best in the welterweight days, so how anyone can say that he's the best when they have never seen him at his best is crazy.

I think the difference here between as you claim no footage of sugar ray at his best and no footage of harry greb is that the footage that does exist of Robinson does show that he was an exceptional fighter which can lead one to reasonably safely presume that at his welterweight best he would be an even better fighter than the one we can see in the footage that does exist.

where as theres just nothing of greb at all

J · Post by J » 27 May 2004, 05:17

Southpaw Stylist wrote:Apparently, there is no footagae ANYWHERE on earth of Sugar Ray at his best in the welterweight days, so how anyone can say that he's the best when they have never seen him at his best is crazy.

but there is plenty of hiom at middle and he was pretty shit hot there too oh also have a look at this record

Career Totals Won 173 (KOs 108) | Lost 19 | Drawn 6 | Tot 200
end.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 27 May 2004, 06:14

Yes, basically although there is no footage of him at welter (what a crying shame) we have fight reports of the time, footage of him at middleweight (when he was basically past his best), and you have his record, which shows that he beat all of the best fighters in the division.

Robinson was in fact the best welterweight for 5 years before he even got a shot at the title, it was widely accepted that he was the uncrowned king of the division before he even won the title, just look at the people he beat even before winning the title.

He beat LaMotta when still a welterweight three times, with LaMotta weighing over the middleweight limit, and purportedly weighing in as a light heavyweight come fight night.

I still rate Armstrong slightly higher though for his brief but brilliant best, when he was untouchable and overwhelmed everyone in his path.

lamphey · Post by **lamphey** » 27 May 2004, 08:26

It seems to have become a myth that there is no footage of Robinson at welterweight.

I have his welter defence against Charlie Fusari and clips of an early bout against Sammy Angott on tape.

I believe there are clips of a couple of other pre-Middleweight bouts of Robinson available also.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 27 May 2004, 09:08

Just opinion isn't it. Like asking me my favourite film, I don't have one, I have lots. Same with boxers.

And unless you've seen extensive footage of all fighters of the last 120 years then you are giving an awnser based on personal taste/preference.

So my answer is:

Joe Calzaghe.