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True

Posted: 15 Jun 2004, 01:10
by klompton
I guess thats why they invented the term Pound for Pound. Some of these guys where so damn good that they could have dominated several divisions regardless of weight, they were in a class all their own.

Tunney-Greb

Posted: 15 Jun 2004, 01:14
by klompton
headhunter wrote:i agree greb was a great fighter at both middle and lightheavy mainly due to the names on his record e.g walker, loughran etc but while his win over tunney was very impressive its often overlooked that tunney beat greb four times.
if greb is in the list of atg lightheavys he`s got to be pencilled in lower down the list than tunney for me.
i think knockout artist sums it up very well......
the greatest L/H is ezzard charles, the greatest champion is archie moore.
Tunney did not beat Greb four times. Greb won the first match, was robbed in the second in what was considered one of the worst decisions ever rendered in New York at the time, he lost the third, won the fourth in the opinion of 2 of the 3 Cleveland newspapers (the third had it draw, Greb by majority decision), and lost the fifth. Furthermore, Tunney didnt have nearly as many big wins at light heavy as Greb. Grebs record of top notch wins goes all the way back to at least 1917 while Tunney wasnt getting headlines until his win over faded Battling Levinsky (who Greb had beaten 6 times) in 1922.

Posted: 15 Jun 2004, 15:06
by TheRiverCityHippy
seems i was wrong, just checked out tunneys record and it shows he lost two fights to greb, dunno why but i thought tunney only lost once in his career.
good call klompton.

Posted: 15 Jun 2004, 15:20
by Jaclem
..tunney had only one "official" loss. two "official" wins over greb, one "official" loss...the others were no decision contests.

Posted: 21 Jun 2004, 11:34
by Hut*Hut
I think Ezzard Charles would be No1.

Posted: 21 Jun 2004, 12:55
by Eric the Viking
Hut*Hut wrote:I think Ezzard Charles would be No1.
In prime-vs.-prime terms, most would agree with you. OTOH in terms of overall career accomplishments at the weight, a very good case can be made for Moore. Charles beat Moore all 3 times they met in their respective physical primes, but Moore went on to have a freakishly long career at the top, including of course a title win and many defenses - Charles was effectively shut out of the LHW title hunt during his briefer tenure at the weight.

Moore was a late bloomer in so many ways - first pro bout in 1935 at age nearly 22 at a Civilian Conservation Corps Camp - BoxRec notes that this may well be considered a semi-pro bout, and Moore didn't really start his pro career until nearly a year later. Didn't win his first title until May 1943, when he won the California State Middleweight Title at nearly age 30. Moore lost a fair number of bouts in that first decade, including a lopsided 1944 loss to Charley Burley (who was 4 years younger than Moore but was already entering the latter part of his career, and had lost twice to an up-and-coming Ezzard Charles 2 years previously). Moore had his 0-3 trilogy vs. Charles in the several years following the Burley bout, and also lost no small number of other fights during that period, though likely some were of the dubious home-cooking variety.

In my opinion, it wasn't until around 1949, after Charles moved to heavyweight, that Moore, now 35 years old, began to really come into his own. Beat Joey Maxim in 1952 for his first World Light Heavyweight Title, 4 days after his 39th birthday (! - Imagine if Bernard Hopkins had just won his first middleweight title this past January). Moore defended the LHW title four times (2 rematches vs. Maxim, vs. Harold Johnson, vs. Bobo Olson), then in September 1955 unsuccessfully challenged Marciano (the Rock's final fight) for his heavyweigh title (it's not clear whether Moore had to vacate his light-heavy title when moving up, but it seems not), defended the LHW title in June '56 vs. Yolande Pompey, 5 months later unsuccessfully challenged a young Floyd Patterson for the now-vacant heavyweight title, defended his LHW title once more in September of '57 (vs. Ernest Anthony), then not again until December '58 when he had that memorable first bout with Durelle (the Ring FOY for '58 wound up being the Robinson-Basilio rematch) just a few days before Archie's 45th birthday. Archie defended the LHW title twice more (beat Durelle much more easily in the August '59 rematch, easily beat Giulio Rinaldi in June '61, in a rematch of a non-tile-bout loss to Rinaldi the year before). Moore had only a half-dozen bouts after the second Rinaldi bout, but they included a win over Pete Rademacher, the 1956 Olympic Heavyweight Gold Medalist, best-known for challenging Patterson for his HW title in '57 in Rademacher's professional debut (and doing so in spectacularly unsuccesful fashion, then getting smashed by Zora Folley a year later in his second fight - what were Rademacher & co. thinking, rushing into a title fight so soon? But that's for another thread) and a TKO4 loss to a young 15-0 heavyweight and 1960 Olympic Light-Heavyweight Gold Medalist named Cassius Clay, in November of 1962, just 4 weeks before Moore's 49th birthday, in Moore's 218th (and penultimate) pro fight.

Quite an astonishing career, that.

Posted: 21 Jun 2004, 13:44
by FreeIkemefula
Foster.

Posted: 21 Jun 2004, 15:48
by Eric the Viking
FreeIkemefula wrote:Foster.
Bzzt! I'm sorry, that answer was incorrect. Thanks for playing...